Question from a teacher about your kids...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While I am no fan of OP's classroom model, my 10th grader who's taking challenge math, science and social studies classes would be thrilled to have a class where he can coast by selecting easy books that he "loves." He'd have more time to engage in his other classes that require more depth. He'd be happy to have OP as a teacher.

Interesting you think I’m a big enough bozo to be like “sure you can read The Boxcar Children” in 10th grade. Again, there is NO WAY for anyone to glean an entire pedagogy from this one thread. Obviously the kids would have to propose a title, why they selected it, and I would have veto power if it were inappropriate (Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray) or way below grade level or like 50 pages long.

The anti teacher sentiment that is replete across the rest of DCUM makes tons of sense now though. You guys really do think we are idiots! It’s a wonder you send your kids to school at all since you can do it so much better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

The people in this thread don’t even trust me to do my job in the most basic way (like you really think we don’t have discussions or do anything in class if I let them pick books and I’ve spent 8 pages justifying I do know how to teach better than people who aren’t teachers) yet you mean to suggest you expect me to have these conversations with your kids? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no trust between parents and teachers that allows for those conversations to be productive. In theory, they should be in classes. In reality, the parents always get upset and email us / admin to stop being political or insinuating their personal beliefs are bad.

So you are avoiding teaching a singular book because you’re worried what conversations will happen???
I can assure you, parents will be PO’d when they find out you’re not teach any books (for good reason, as we’ve pointed out). Be prepared for that.
And, btw, parents email teachers all the time & complain. It’s not just you!

[Anonymous]

My DD does not read for pleasure. Unfortunately, she has enough assigned reading she has to complete over the summer that there is no time. She's dyslexic and a slow reader, and since middle school has found that she just has no energy left for reading for pleasure. She used to listen to a ton of audio books, and adored them and I hope that once she's out of high school she'll have more space for reading for pleasure.

This frustrates me, but it's also part of my daughter's choices. She chooses to take AP classes, which always have summer reading. If she were taking regular classes, she'd only need to read 2 books this summer. Due to AP courses, she has to read 5.

I love your idea of letting kids pick from a curated list. (My daughter would pick the shortest one and/or the one that she could get the audiobook for.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

The people in this thread don’t even trust me to do my job in the most basic way (like you really think we don’t have discussions or do anything in class if I let them pick books and I’ve spent 8 pages justifying I do know how to teach better than people who aren’t teachers) yet you mean to suggest you expect me to have these conversations with your kids? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no trust between parents and teachers that allows for those conversations to be productive. In theory, they should be in classes. In reality, the parents always get upset and email us / admin to stop being political or insinuating their personal beliefs are bad.

The people on this thread don't trust you to do your job because what you're saying makes no sense from the perspective of preparing kids for higher learning. You don't need to interject politics or share your personal beliefs, just pick a few challenging books. They don't have to be the classics, of a particular genre, etc. The books just should be at a minimum level of difficulty commensurate with the year in school and level of class you teach.

[Anonymous]

How old are you, OP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

The people in this thread don’t even trust me to do my job in the most basic way (like you really think we don’t have discussions or do anything in class if I let them pick books and I’ve spent 8 pages justifying I do know how to teach better than people who aren’t teachers) yet you mean to suggest you expect me to have these conversations with your kids? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no trust between parents and teachers that allows for those conversations to be productive. In theory, they should be in classes. In reality, the parents always get upset and email us / admin to stop being political or insinuating their personal beliefs are bad.

So you are avoiding teaching a singular book because you’re worried what conversations will happen???
I can assure you, parents will be PO’d when they find out you’re not teach any books (for good reason, as we’ve pointed out). Be prepared for that.
And, btw, parents email teachers all the time & complain. It’s not just you!

I don’t teach TKAM because it’s not a good book. It’s white supremacist garbage. While we do have big conversations, I don’t predicate them on that book because I’ve had kids experience real distress in reading it and for every tough convo we have in class, I get parent emails telling me not to. Some are worth doing that anyway but some topics are too fraught. Just how it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

Right, but what does the classroom actually look like? One kid is talking about the hero’s journey as illustrated by Frodo’s character arc or whatever, how are any of the other students who aren’t reading LotR going to connect with that? “Hey, look at this cool way light and dark imagery shows up again in this climactic scene, reminding me of the scene where the protagonist was introduced...it’s on page 73 of a book I’m the only one who has.”

Look, cards on the table, I think there’s a certain corpus of material people need to be familiar with in order to engage productively with those big questions. Never mind with works of literature! You’re not going to understand what Derek Walcott is saying if you haven’t read the Odyssey, and frankly reading Ulysses helps too. “Whose story gets told” is, IMO, a question that you need to know a lot of history to answer and I’m not convinced you can provide appropriate context for students who are reading twenty five different books. I mean, fine, if you want to do the Harlem Renaissance not everyone needs to be reading Invisible Man, but I can’t imagine a productive classroom conversation between someone reading Invisible Man and someone reading the latest dystopian YA. This may be a failure of imagination on my part! So I’m curious how you envision it going.

I agree with parts of what you are saying. It IS more challenging to teach when students aren’t all reading the same book. However, great schools donthat all the time. Sometimes, they cluster students in discussion groups around books with a common theme. I don’t teach English, but in my SS class students work on individualized research topics, reading totally different primary and secondary sources, but manage to have group discussions about common themes. Part of the work that has to be done upfront is teaching students how to have this type of discussion. It’s a skill of lifelong real world value.

I’m OP and this is why I said it would definitely take a little more work on my part... it’s giving kids tools and a framework to lead their own learning and discussion without the normal training wheels in place.

Pp, imagine a topic or interest in the news. Gun violence let’s say. You mention to a friend one article you read. They say oh, here’s the one I read. You discuss the merits of each, how the author made the point, was it persuasive? Expository? Opinion? How do you know? Were the tools they used effective? You could have a very rich discussion having not ever necessarily read the other article. And you might even feel compelled during or afterward to go read that article because the discussion was that interesting. We do this ALL the time as adults! I believe kids can too. “I picked a book about poverty. Here’s how my book handles it.” “And here’s how my book handles that same issue.”

This doesn't work as well for struggling readers. This past year my dyslexic child was assigned a book that was incredibly abstract. Had it not been for class discussions specifically about the book, my DC never would have known what was going on. DC struggles just to read for general understanding, pulling together all the symbolism and inference that was required to really get this book was not happening without help.

I'd recommend being cautious with this because my DC will not say "I'm not understanding this" and would remain silent or come up with a glib response that would take the spotlight off if forced to speak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

The people in this thread don’t even trust me to do my job in the most basic way (like you really think we don’t have discussions or do anything in class if I let them pick books and I’ve spent 8 pages justifying I do know how to teach better than people who aren’t teachers) yet you mean to suggest you expect me to have these conversations with your kids? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no trust between parents and teachers that allows for those conversations to be productive. In theory, they should be in classes. In reality, the parents always get upset and email us / admin to stop being political or insinuating their personal beliefs are bad.

So you are avoiding teaching a singular book because you’re worried what conversations will happen???
I can assure you, parents will be PO’d when they find out you’re not teach any books (for good reason, as we’ve pointed out). Be prepared for that.
And, btw, parents email teachers all the time & complain. It’s not just you!

I don’t teach TKAM because it’s not a good book. It’s white supremacist garbage. While we do have big conversations, I don’t predicate them on that book because I’ve had kids experience real distress in reading it and for every tough convo we have in class, I get parent emails telling me not to. Some are worth doing that anyway but some topics are too fraught. Just how it is.

What is the percentage of emails coming from the parents of white kids vs. those of AA kids?

I teach US History in a challenging way. It’s all tough conversations. Virtually all of emails I get from irate parents are from the moms and dads white kids who came home with questions their parents could not answer. I take those emails as a sign that I’m making a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

The people in this thread don’t even trust me to do my job in the most basic way (like you really think we don’t have discussions or do anything in class if I let them pick books and I’ve spent 8 pages justifying I do know how to teach better than people who aren’t teachers) yet you mean to suggest you expect me to have these conversations with your kids? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no trust between parents and teachers that allows for those conversations to be productive. In theory, they should be in classes. In reality, the parents always get upset and email us / admin to stop being political or insinuating their personal beliefs are bad.

So you are avoiding teaching a singular book because you’re worried what conversations will happen???
I can assure you, parents will be PO’d when they find out you’re not teach any books (for good reason, as we’ve pointed out). Be prepared for that.
And, btw, parents email teachers all the time & complain. It’s not just you!

I don’t teach TKAM because it’s not a good book. It’s white supremacist garbage. While we do have big conversations, I don’t predicate them on that book because I’ve had kids experience real distress in reading it and for every tough convo we have in class, I get parent emails telling me not to. Some are worth doing that anyway but some topics are too fraught. Just how it is.

So don’t teach TKAM. But have the entire class read your book selections together, as a united group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I am no fan of OP's classroom model, my 10th grader who's taking challenge math, science and social studies classes would be thrilled to have a class where he can coast by selecting easy books that he "loves." He'd have more time to engage in his other classes that require more depth. He'd be happy to have OP as a teacher.

Interesting you think I’m a big enough bozo to be like “sure you can read The Boxcar Children” in 10th grade. Again, there is NO WAY for anyone to glean an entire pedagogy from this one thread. Obviously the kids would have to propose a title, why they selected it, and I would have veto power if it were inappropriate (Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray) or way below grade level or like 50 pages long.

The anti teacher sentiment that is replete across the rest of DCUM makes tons of sense now though. You guys really do think we are idiots! It’s a wonder you send your kids to school at all since you can do it so much better.

Well, this thread has increased the likelihood of me homeschooling by several percentage points!

[Anonymous]

My kids read for pleasure all the time. I'm not sure how a list of their books helps you.

Their schools frequently have assignments where the child chooses a book on topic, but a list (along with the Lexile level) of options is given with a proviso that if the child chooses a book off list, that's fine as long as it gets teacher approval first (for topic relevance and appropriate Lexile level for the student).

I think they do it this way because it is a giant public school with kids of many reading levels in the same class and this is a good way to teach a topic, discuss themes, etc., while making sure each kid is challenged at the right reading level. I think it has been a successful model in the 6 or 7 years I've seen it assigned this way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

The people in this thread don’t even trust me to do my job in the most basic way (like you really think we don’t have discussions or do anything in class if I let them pick books and I’ve spent 8 pages justifying I do know how to teach better than people who aren’t teachers) yet you mean to suggest you expect me to have these conversations with your kids? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no trust between parents and teachers that allows for those conversations to be productive. In theory, they should be in classes. In reality, the parents always get upset and email us / admin to stop being political or insinuating their personal beliefs are bad.

The people on this thread don't trust you to do your job because what you're saying makes no sense from the perspective of preparing kids for higher learning. You don't need to interject politics or share your personal beliefs, just pick a few challenging books. They don't have to be the classics, of a particular genre, etc. The books just should be at a minimum level of difficulty commensurate with the year in school and level of class you teach.

Interesting you think I’m a big enough bozo to be like “sure you can read The Boxcar Children” in 10th grade. Again, there is NO WAY for anyone to glean an entire pedagogy from this one thread. Obviously the kids would have to propose a title, why they selected it, and I would have veto power if it were inappropriate (Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray) or way below grade level or like 50 pages long.

The anti teacher sentiment that is replete across the rest of DCUM makes tons of sense now though. You guys really do think we are idiots! It’s a wonder you send your kids to school at all since you can do it so much better.
[Report Post]

You make no sense. You are a horrible teacher. You are, in fact, a big "bozo." So you magically are going to have enough time in your class to let them all submit a written proposal of what book they would like, and why they selected and how it relates to your given topic... And you will grade and return and veto and somehow they will also have researched the books on their own and have access to them?

I still do not understand how you are possibly addressing the standards for your curriculum. Not sure if you're VA or MD or what, but we have to read Their Eyes Were Watching God, it's almost always on the AP test. We have to read the Federalist papers. We have a slew of things we MUST read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I am no fan of OP's classroom model, my 10th grader who's taking challenge math, science and social studies classes would be thrilled to have a class where he can coast by selecting easy books that he "loves." He'd have more time to engage in his other classes that require more depth. He'd be happy to have OP as a teacher.

Interesting you think I’m a big enough bozo to be like “sure you can read The Boxcar Children” in 10th grade. Again, there is NO WAY for anyone to glean an entire pedagogy from this one thread. Obviously the kids would have to propose a title, why they selected it, and I would have veto power if it were inappropriate (Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray) or way below grade level or like 50 pages long.

The anti teacher sentiment that is replete across the rest of DCUM makes tons of sense now though. You guys really do think we are idiots! It’s a wonder you send your kids to school at all since you can do it so much better.

Well, this thread has increased the likelihood of me homeschooling by several percentage points!

Hope OP isn’t representative of a new wave of teachers...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I am no fan of OP's classroom model, my 10th grader who's taking challenge math, science and social studies classes would be thrilled to have a class where he can coast by selecting easy books that he "loves." He'd have more time to engage in his other classes that require more depth. He'd be happy to have OP as a teacher.

Interesting you think I’m a big enough bozo to be like “sure you can read The Boxcar Children” in 10th grade. Again, there is NO WAY for anyone to glean an entire pedagogy from this one thread. Obviously the kids would have to propose a title, why they selected it, and I would have veto power if it were inappropriate (Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray) or way below grade level or like 50 pages long.

The anti teacher sentiment that is replete across the rest of DCUM makes tons of sense now though. You guys really do think we are idiots! It’s a wonder you send your kids to school at all since you can do it so much better.

Well, this thread has increased the likelihood of me homeschooling by several percentage points!

Hope OP isn’t representative of a new wave of teachers...

Don't worry, I am a teacher (I'm 30, so I am still 'young' but have been teaching 9 years). She sounds like a first through third year teacher, and like she probably is really hated by her whole staff. She is the type who speaks up and argues at faculty meetings, who defies the curriculum and the parents and admin, and then feels scorned and like she was treated unfairly. There has been one or two every year. Don't worry, she'll chill out or quit.

[Anonymous]

DD is a rising junior. She reads for fun, but she's all over the map. Sometimes it's Shakespeare, sometimes it's VC Andrews.