Why do top US universities weed out most pre-med kids & then we import foreign MDs?

[Anonymous]

Maybe one option for someone who wants to be a health care provider but lacks the grades to get into medical school would be becoming a nurse practitioner.

The median pay for family doctors is somewhat higher, but nurse practitioners with earnings at the 75th percentile earn almost as much as family doctors at the 25th percentile:

See: https://www.nursepractitionerschools.com/faq/np-vs-doctor

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

That's what I heard from other students. I'm sure you are at the tippy-top at your career, though, pp, DCUM posters putting down others always are.

[Anonymous]

US medical schools are all extremely competitive. Unlike law schools, there are no terrible medical schools in the US. As plenty of people have pointed out, there are very few foreign students in US medical schools. This is different from US undergraduate and law schools, which have taken lots of foreign, full-pay students for the $$. I'm looking at you, GW!

The absolute best GP I ever had was Indian born and trained. She said when she was in medical school there was far less emphasis on expensive labwork and imaging, and much more emphasis on clinical examination and evaluation of the patient's symptoms. Then once she got into the American medical system and had access to all the diagnostic tests in addition to excellent clinical skills, she was amazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe one option for someone who wants to be a health care provider but lacks the grades to get into medical school would be becoming a nurse practitioner.

The median pay for family doctors is somewhat higher, but nurse practitioners with earnings at the 75th percentile earn almost as much as family doctors at the 25th percentile:

See: https://www.nursepractitionerschools.com/faq/np-vs-doctor

Meh. It’s the wave of the future but its low paid and as a patient I don’t wish to see a nurse practitioner because the breadth of education and diagnostic skills aren’t there. But there are many paying jobs at Medical clinics and busy doctors offices everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. ...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

That's what I heard from other students. I'm sure you are at the tippy-top at your career, though, pp, DCUM posters putting down others always are.

The reality is that the U.S. system for educating and training doctors is hellish.

People who have problems with depression or anxiety should probably not try to become doctors in the United States. If they really want to get into health care, maybe they should consider becoming nurses, or medical technologists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

That's what I heard from other students. I'm sure you are at the tippy-top at your career, though, pp, DCUM posters putting down others always are.

no need for . i was just trying to understand what you were saying. i certainly wasn't trying to put down you/your career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

I knew more than a few students who realized they could not compete in science classes at Duke and took them at less rigorous schools. I don't think anyone could tell you the level of competition and rigor at Duke vs. some random school are the same. I am jealous of their savvy, not regretful. I eventually realized I needed to make things work for ME, which is how I made some good choices and positioned myself much better than most of the posters on this board. You have to learn from mistakes.

But I think it's silly to think our system rewards only aptitude- it rewards savvy and parents who can pay $$$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. ...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

That's what I heard from other students. I'm sure you are at the tippy-top at your career, though, pp, DCUM posters putting down others always are.

The reality is that the U.S. system for educating and training doctors is hellish.

People who have problems with depression or anxiety should probably not try to become doctors in the United States. If they really want to get into health care, maybe they should consider becoming nurses, or medical technologists.

Nursing or med tech is better for people with depression or anxiety?!?!

Have you actually ever visited a hospital???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

I knew more than a few students who realized they could not compete in science classes at Duke and took them at less rigorous schools. I don't think anyone could tell you the level of competition and rigor at Duke vs. some random school are the same. I am jealous of their savvy, not regretful. I eventually realized I needed to make things work for ME, which is how I made some good choices and positioned myself much better than most of the posters on this board. You have to learn from mistakes.

But I think it's silly to think our system rewards only aptitude- it rewards savvy and parents who can pay $$$$.

But that's why you also need MCAT score. It "normalizes" the playing field for everyone. If Duke kids are truly smarter/courses harder/better prepared than typical state Us, their MCAT scores will show and US med schools will be full of Duke kids. And no state U kids will be able to go to decent medical schools, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, it sucks to have a dumb lazy kid isn’t it? Better to know her limitations now than later.

OP said her kid isn't pre-med.

Not any longer. Now we know why don’t we!?!?!

We’re all going to close our eyes and turn away. Then, you can remove your stick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

I knew more than a few students who realized they could not compete in science classes at Duke and took them at less rigorous schools. I don't think anyone could tell you the level of competition and rigor at Duke vs. some random school are the same. I am jealous of their savvy, not regretful. I eventually realized I needed to make things work for ME, which is how I made some good choices and positioned myself much better than most of the posters on this board. You have to learn from mistakes.

But I think it's silly to think our system rewards only aptitude- it rewards savvy and parents who can pay $$$$.

But that's why you also need MCAT score. It "normalizes" the playing field for everyone. If Duke kids are truly smarter/courses harder/better prepared than typical state Us, their MCAT scores will show and US med schools will be full of Duke kids. And no state U kids will be able to go to decent medical schools, right?

I don't think that the kids who drop out of pre-med are not getting as far as the MCAT. This is not some sort of national tragedy- maybe they do lack aptitude, maybe they changed their minds. Everyone *I* discussed it with said the science courses outside of Duke were MUCH easier. Maybe they are making that up. Some of them are doctors now. This is totally anecdotal and maybe you are right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

I knew more than a few students who realized they could not compete in science classes at Duke and took them at less rigorous schools. I don't think anyone could tell you the level of competition and rigor at Duke vs. some random school are the same. I am jealous of their savvy, not regretful. I eventually realized I needed to make things work for ME, which is how I made some good choices and positioned myself much better than most of the posters on this board. You have to learn from mistakes.

But I think it's silly to think our system rewards only aptitude- it rewards savvy and parents who can pay $$$$.

But that's why you also need MCAT score. It "normalizes" the playing field for everyone. If Duke kids are truly smarter/courses harder/better prepared than typical state Us, their MCAT scores will show and US med schools will be full of Duke kids. And no state U kids will be able to go to decent medical schools, right?

This is one of the reasons that med schools give little (although they will give a bit) of credit to the quality of undergrad.

The MCAT is the great equalizer. If you went to a no where near any tier college and get a 3.9, but have a 518 on the MCAT (97th percentile), as my DD did with respect to both, you can get into a mid tier or better med school. Provided, of course, all the extra stuff like clinical hours, volunteering, and shadowing are there. And that no where college turns out to be a plus because med schools like to accept from a broad spectrum of colleges.

A kid who went to Duke and got a 3.5 or 3.6 and a 518 would also have a shot at a mid-tier, but, perhaps unfairly, not as good a one as my DD.

What this means in terms of college planning is that if a smart high school kid wants to be a doctor and is not naturally the person who will be at the top of curve in the science weed out classes, he should not aim for a top undergrad with grade deflation.

Go to a lower rated college that attracts few pre-meds and that will give financial aid for his 98 percentile SAT and stellar high school grades. Then you have a win-win: a better chance at a higher science GPA and more money to spend for MCAT tutoring and med school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am one of the "weeded out" Duke undergrads who dropped pre-med. Wow you guys are harsh! Honestly, I struggled with depression in college and was unhappy at Duke and was even more miserable in pre med courses and did poorly. I was so unaccustomed to flailing so miserably and it seemed like everyone around me seemed so brilliant and was happy and doing awesome (although that wasn't true!). If I could do it all over again I would have majored in something less rigorous at Duke, tried to graduate in 3 years, and then taken my science courses at an easier school. I think sometimes we have different capacities at different times in our lives. For my own child, my advice would be that a job is a job and not who you are, no matter how prestigious or lucrative it is. My family pushed me so hard and made everything so much worse. Even now I think my family perceives me as a failure for going to such a prestigious college and failing to go to medical school. That's hurtful to me, honestly. I went to a top law school on scholarship and graduated with no debt and have a great job now. Everything turned out really well, and yet I suppose I will always wonder what if...

So, you couldn't do premed courses because those courses are "harder" @ Duke? Maybe med school wasn't meant to be.

Exactly. Med schools are going to notice if you do poorly in your science classes - which could very well have happened in the community college classes as well. You can’t hide a lack of science aptitude on the intense MCAT’s either.
Why have regret?

I knew more than a few students who realized they could not compete in science classes at Duke and took them at less rigorous schools. I don't think anyone could tell you the level of competition and rigor at Duke vs. some random school are the same. I am jealous of their savvy, not regretful. I eventually realized I needed to make things work for ME, which is how I made some good choices and positioned myself much better than most of the posters on this board. You have to learn from mistakes.

But I think it's silly to think our system rewards only aptitude- it rewards savvy and parents who can pay $$$$.

Yes, yes, PP, we’re all sure that the only reason you didn’t do well in premed courses is that they are *so* much harder at Duke. And that you are much, much more successful than the rest of us.

It’s good that you don’t have a chip on your shoulder about med school, though.