Why do top US universities weed out most pre-med kids & then we import foreign MDs?

[Anonymous]

It’s really just like alleged tech worker shorter so we import from India. I think they are paid less and that is why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s really just like alleged tech worker shorter so we import from India. I think they are paid less and that is why.

Not really. Twenty-five percent of residencies would go unfilled if we didn't have foreign medical graduates take them. (That includes US citizens who went to Caribbean schools.) All residents are paid poorly. The money you make afterwards will be determined by specialty, geographical location (non-urban doctors tend to make more), drive, and overall competence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:About the # of foreigners in US med schools: my understanding is that US med schools generally won't accept pre-requisites completed at non-US colleges/universities (with very limited exceptions for Canadian and certain UK universities). So, the only way for a "foreigner" to go to med school in the US is to have also gone to undergrad in US or to have completed pre-reqs (such as in a post-bacc program) in the US.

Not the OP, but my DD is interested in the medical professions. She has a lot of other interests as well. Rather than select college specifically for pre-med, we are thinking that she should choose a college based on overall fit for all her interests. And potentially, just do a post-bacc if she ultimately decides that she wants to go to the med school route.

If undergrad pre-med is so brutal, why do more students not do a post-bacc? (I'm sure cost is a reason, but we are thinking that a more inexpensive undergrad followed by a "prestigious" post-bacc could cost the same or less than pre-med at a "prestigious" undergrad).

Thread is about importing foreign trained MDs after flushing out most of our domestic best and brightest during undergrad. We literally push millions of wicked smart American kids into pointless financial services and consulting because they couldn't ace organic chemistry?! It's insanity.

I am a PhD not an MD. As part of my grad work, I taught (teaching assistant) and tutored pre-med students in organic chem. I assure you the standards are not too high. Most pre-med students did not have a deep understanding of .org chem (they dealt with it by memorizing). You could always tell the pre-med versus the chem students (or engineering students). Really it’s a pretty low bar to do well on organic chem. I would hope a doctor treating me or my kid could hack it.

Yes! The science and engineering students (chemical, materials, environmental) kids Are the only ones in organic classes I have taught seem to really understand the course. Premed students for the most part are focused on the grade and memorize their way through things. You really don’t want a doc that can’t ace undergrad org chem. It is just not that hard.

Wait. Are you guys saying that a student majoring in chemistry and planning to get a PhD in that subject has a better understanding of organic chemistry than a classics major who is just taking ochem as a requirement to apply to medical school? Mind blown.

Yes. I am also saying other “STEM” students - physics majors, engineering majors etc do not find organic chem that difficult. The fact that it is considered a weeder course in premed is a good thing. You don’t want your classics major who is uninterested in STEM, generally speaking, to qualify for med school unless they can pass organic chem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You are insulting and ignorant. My husband has medical training from France and the selection there is:

SIX percent.

Not 50%.

He works at NIH alongside other competent doctors from all over the world, and they all survived much more rigorous selection than the one here in the US.

Same for scientific research: I went to grad school here to join my husband, and the PhD students in my department were majority foreign. The American students were unfortunately much less knowledgeable and prepared than their foreign counterparts, and PIs (tenured researchers with their own labs) always preferred foreign students to work in their lab. Stipends were the same, it was purely a competence issue.

You are confusing money with abilities. Just because the US is the wealthiest country on earth, it doesn’t follow that its education is the most rigorous. Foreigners come here because US universities are well-funded, and Ivy league diplomas are recognized. But their foundational learning is much stronger because their home countries place more emphasis on K-12 and undergrad education.

LMAO. French medical education is second rate. I'm happy your husband has a job and is contributing, but he is doing it with subpar training.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:By weeding out, you mean the students perform poorly in the courses needed to become a doctoral level scientist. Not sure how to get around that.

I have a PhD and often have to review the applications of students who sincerely want to pursue a PhD in my field. Their grades and standardized test scores however, suggest that they will not complete graduate school successfully. We would do them a disservice to admit them to an expensive, time-consuming (5-7 year) process...if all indications are they will not finish with the degree at the end.

suggests they are not "verified brilliant".

No, it suggests foreign training is a abysmal compared to top tier American colleges, which are stupidly filtering out brilliant children. Isn't it wonderful that our top tier colleges funnel thousands and thousands of wannabe doctors each year into banking and consulting!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest attends a top college and she's not pursuing pre-med but many of her friends are (or were). These pre-med girls (and boys) are verified brilliant, with grit and outgoing genuinely nice personalities. Yet their college and every top 100 American university weeds out at least 50% of them. Can someone tell me why? These kids go from wanting to serve people to becoming "consultants" or wall street money changers or lawyers. This has to be the most ass backwards disservice to health care in this country. Then we import Asia and Middle East-trained MDs with subpar training and awful bedside manner. I just don't get it.

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2017/06/03/the-pre-med-drop-out/

Simple.

Brilliant foreigners are ten times more brilliant than those "brilliant" girls you know.

They have been exposed to much more challenging learning environments and learned a ton in the process.

This is total horsecrap. And the biggest medicaid scams in US history are exclusively foreign-trained doctors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really just like alleged tech worker shorter so we import from India. I think they are paid less and that is why.

Not really. Twenty-five percent of residencies would go unfilled if we didn't have foreign medical graduates take them. (That includes US citizens who went to Caribbean schools.) All residents are paid poorly. The money you make afterwards will be determined by specialty, geographical location (non-urban doctors tend to make more), drive, and overall competence.

That’s just the H1B hater guy, ignore him.

[Anonymous]

Direct results of holistic admission process to colleges. Capable students instead keep getting better at swimming and soccer, hoping to pull off that holistic admission. Med schools actually care about what you know. Suddenly, there arises a problem.

Dear OP, I fully agree with you that this model is a waste of the country's human capital.

[Anonymous]

As we confront Corona with a doctor shortage, we can't overlook the fact that for the last few decades, our nations top 100 universities have been recklessly overzealous in weeding out super sharp pre-med kids. Hundreds of thousands of would-be American MDs and DOs instead became consultants, Wall Street sleaze, lawyers, pharm reps and bureaucrats. Just lovely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

They are not arbitrarily weeded out. They are weeded out because they can't handle the rigor and lack determination/will power to study.

Bull. They are weeded out because college is a business. The business plan is to forcefully distribute kids into all departments, especially highly-profitable soft departments. STEM departments are low margin, super expensive to build, operate and staff. And med school seats are kept artificially scarce to keep current MD wages and hospital revenue high. It's a highly choreographed racket, all-around. The losers: Americans overall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

I wish universities and colleges would weed out pre-service teachers.
Many are dumb as rocks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you want anyone other than the brightest and most capable people in charge of your medical care?

I want more English speaking proven high IQ American kids becoming doctors, I don't want tens of thousands of them being arbitrarily weeded out with curved STEM courses and senseless hoops and hyper-selective medical schools rejecting them.

They are not arbitrarily weeded out. They are weeded out because they can't handle the rigor and lack determination/will power to study.

Bull. They are weeded out because college is a business. The business plan is to forcefully distribute kids into all departments, especially highly-profitable soft departments. STEM departments are low margin, super expensive to build, operate and staff. And med school seats are kept artificially scarce to keep current MD wages and hospital revenue high. It's a highly choreographed racket, all-around. The losers: Americans overall.

The number of seats/residency spots are TIGHTLY controlled by the American Medical Association.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:By weeding out, you mean the students perform poorly in the courses needed to become a doctoral level scientist. Not sure how to get around that.

I have a PhD and often have to review the applications of students who sincerely want to pursue a PhD in my field. Their grades and standardized test scores however, suggest that they will not complete graduate school successfully. We would do them a disservice to admit them to an expensive, time-consuming (5-7 year) process...if all indications are they will not finish with the degree at the end.

I would agree with you (and I do believe poor performers need to go) except for the fact that the weed out process doesn’t seem highly correlated with what it means to be successful in the field.

[Anonymous]

I work with physicians. The day to day job of practicing medicine has zero need for calculus and higher order math. You also do not need the chemistry knowledge depth of a pharmaceutical researcher to understand how a medication works in the body and the correct indicators for prescribing it (and the medical chemist already figured out the dosing guidelines, too). I want my surgeon to have excellent hand-eye coordination more than I care about their college grade in organic chemistry.

[Anonymous]

Foreign doctors yuck