Do you feel like a sucker if you grew up Middle Class and your family obeyed all of the rules...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you feel like a sucker if you grew up middle class...your family obeyed all of the rules...worked the proverbial "9-5" and had nothing to show for it? I feel like we were suckers to work so heard and then couldn't even afford to go out (ever) nor go on vacations. I suspect most Americans are like this and only the uMC/rich get to enjoy the perks/profits off the backs of the MC

Nope, don't feel like suckers. We probably weren't even middle class when it came to income (because we were such a large family) but we lived in a decent neighborhood (in a house too small for us, I shared bathroom with 4 others and a bedroom with 2 others) and my parents were educated and raised us with as much free culture as we could get, so lots of trips to libraries, our local free museums and zoo, etc.

Growing up without a lot of material things, with all hand-me-downs, etc. taught me 1) to be thrifty and 2) to have empathy for others less fortunate than me.

We were never hungry. And even if our 2nd-hand clothes were sometimes ill-fitting or out of style, we were never cold, and even if I had to share a bed until I was 12 with a sibling, we still had a roof over our head. And even though we only went on 3 vacations during my entire childhood, one of which was about 3 days long, we had the world at our fingertips from books borrowed from the library and given as gifts at Christmas.

That being said, I do believe income inequality is getting completey out of control.

This is very dickens sad gratitude. What if I told you that your dad's boss hid his own income through loopholes and paid zero effective tax, and then he would give your dad and his coworkers a pat on the back and say good job, guys, we'll get you all set up with a cola raise this year, and maybe .5% next year if you work hard? And your dad was just grateful to have a job and didn't know that the boss raked in record profits last year. And your dad honestly paid taxes he couldn't really afford and your boss paid none? This would be bitter and this is what's happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those w W2 income carry the tax burden. The wealthy w passive income (aka Buffett), real estate developers (ala Trump) and hedge funders w their carried interest taxes at a lower rate are the rich getting away w paying lower taxes....

This. Don't know why people keep denying. And yes a lower rate % is still going to be a glorious chunk of money and look like they are paying the lions share of all taxes, but it's def not fair or based on what everyone can afford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry you feel that way OP.

I do sometimes feel like a sucker for having most of our money be regular income that is taxed at the highest rate.

Especially when you look at people like the Trumps who don't pay any taxes because of loopholes and fancy accounting. It is infuriating.

Not sure why you are under this impression. I am not a big fan of Trump but he did pay taxes based on that one leaked return.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Manafort and Cohen types were what came to mind when I read the subject line and opened the thread. I wonder how common it is for non-W2 folks to omit income from their tax returns or outright lie (i.e. inflate cost basis or other deductions).

That's a tough question to answer. Due to the complexity of US Tax law, a lot comes down to "treatment". Things like cost basis, deductions, and etc, often exist on a continuum rather than black/white. A position is often described in terms of conservative or aggressive. A conservative treatment is one that has low audit risk and IRS will almost certainly agree with the treatment if audited. An aggressive position is one that has a higher likelihood of being audited, or higher chance of IRS disagreeing if audited. Higher chance doesn't mean 100% chance, which is why some may choose to take an aggressive position. But is it illegal? Again it depends, because there is a chance that IRS could audit it and decide that it's okay.

I'm talking about flat out lying. For example, brokerage firms used to not track/report the cost basis for securities so one could basically make up their original purchase price. Another example would be buying new carpet for your house and claiming it as a deduction against a rental property as a repair.

I don't know how long ago "used to" you are referring to, but as far as I can recall, you have to either provide transaction records to establish basis, or else the basis is assumed to be zero by IRS. Buying carpet for owner occupied property and expensing it against a rental property is definitely illegal, though I don't know how much this goes on. This type of small-time abuse is unlikely to go on in a larger business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you feel like a sucker if you grew up middle class...your family obeyed all of the rules...worked the proverbial "9-5" and had nothing to show for it? I feel like we were suckers to work so heard and then couldn't even afford to go out (ever) nor go on vacations. I suspect most Americans are like this and only the uMC/rich get to enjoy the perks/profits off the backs of the MC

Nope, don't feel like suckers. We probably weren't even middle class when it came to income (because we were such a large family) but we lived in a decent neighborhood (in a house too small for us, I shared bathroom with 4 others and a bedroom with 2 others) and my parents were educated and raised us with as much free culture as we could get, so lots of trips to libraries, our local free museums and zoo, etc.

Growing up without a lot of material things, with all hand-me-downs, etc. taught me 1) to be thrifty and 2) to have empathy for others less fortunate than me.

We were never hungry. And even if our 2nd-hand clothes were sometimes ill-fitting or out of style, we were never cold, and even if I had to share a bed until I was 12 with a sibling, we still had a roof over our head. And even though we only went on 3 vacations during my entire childhood, one of which was about 3 days long, we had the world at our fingertips from books borrowed from the library and given as gifts at Christmas.

That being said, I do believe income inequality is getting completey out of control.

This is very dickens sad gratitude. What if I told you that your dad's boss hid his own income through loopholes and paid zero effective tax, and then he would give your dad and his coworkers a pat on the back and say good job, guys, we'll get you all set up with a cola raise this year, and maybe .5% next year if you work hard? And your dad was just grateful to have a job and didn't know that the boss raked in record profits last year. And your dad honestly paid taxes he couldn't really afford and your boss paid none? This would be bitter and this is what's happening.

Yea, and what if your kids were being bullied at school and your wife is cheating on you with your best friend that comes over for dinner all the time. Absent actual evidence, it's not productive to dream up scenarios of how you are being taken advantage of.

[Anonymous]

I think wealth inequality has always existed - it’s just now so apparent due to the Internet. Now you can literally get a look at how the very wealthy live - see inside their homes through Zillow, view inside their country clubs and vacation locations online and see how much they pay for all of it. Years ago if you wanted to see a designer purse you had to drive to a store that stocked them in a city or town that had that store and talk to a human to view whatever they had in stock. Now, you can view hundreds online Giving the impression that it is all more within reach - but really, many of these things have always only been affordable to the truly wealthy, we just more aware of the differences.

There have always been a small percentage of really rich people. I think that percentage is seen as bigger than it is due to media coverage.

I also think the top 20% have a skewed view of their own situation. To a greater population than most in affluent regions realize, you are considered well-off if you are college educated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Manafort and Cohen types were what came to mind when I read the subject line and opened the thread. I wonder how common it is for non-W2 folks to omit income from their tax returns or outright lie (i.e. inflate cost basis or other deductions).

That's a tough question to answer. Due to the complexity of US Tax law, a lot comes down to "treatment". Things like cost basis, deductions, and etc, often exist on a continuum rather than black/white. A position is often described in terms of conservative or aggressive. A conservative treatment is one that has low audit risk and IRS will almost certainly agree with the treatment if audited. An aggressive position is one that has a higher likelihood of being audited, or higher chance of IRS disagreeing if audited. Higher chance doesn't mean 100% chance, which is why some may choose to take an aggressive position. But is it illegal? Again it depends, because there is a chance that IRS could audit it and decide that it's okay.

I'm talking about flat out lying. For example, brokerage firms used to not track/report the cost basis for securities so one could basically make up their original purchase price. Another example would be buying new carpet for your house and claiming it as a deduction against a rental property as a repair.

I don't know how long ago "used to" you are referring to, but as far as I can recall, you have to either provide transaction records to establish basis, or else the basis is assumed to be zero by IRS. Buying carpet for owner occupied property and expensing it against a rental property is definitely illegal, though I don't know how much this goes on. This type of small-time abuse is unlikely to go on in a larger business.

I believe the IRS required brokers to track and report around 2010 so not that long ago. While you had to enter the date and purchase price you didnt have to prove it unless you were audited which didnt happen very often. Anyways, I'm certainly not an expert in ways to evade taxes but like I said, Im curious about how many Manaforts and Cohens are out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Uh the “foreign Asians” who tend to do well here do well bc of selective immigration policies. They don’t just let anyone in. The biggest boom post 1965 was specifically for highly educated Asians who came here for grad school. More recently ther has been a return to preferencing people with money and education. It’s not just a random sampling of people from Asia.

Yes and no. Sure there was in a wave in the 70s and another in the early/mid 2000s that was mostly engineers/IT. They came in via sponsorships for jobs or for grad school; so of course with parents like that, the kids will do well bc their parents expect a lot re education, know about various professions etc. But there have been MANY waves otherwise where not so educated Asians have come in thru visa lotteries, chain migration thru their one successful brother in the US etc. These are the people you often see at nail salons, Motel 6, 7-11s, random secretaries in medical offices, random office jobs, taxi drivers, jobs in NYC restaurants etc. Sure some of the folks at nail salons, Motel 6, 7-11 are actual business owners; they were able to hustle in whatever jobs they could find in America until they had just enough to take out loans to buy a franchise/business and ultimately they do well. But all the others you see at Dunkin Donuts etc. -- those are employees, making min wage usually. Yet whether you talk to an Asian doctor or Dunkin cashier -- the goals for their kids are ALWAYS the same -- medicine, engineering, law, or finance (and I say finance only bc I grew up in NY metro where everyone understands the riches of Wall Street; say finance to my family in Texas and they act horrified as they have visions of their child managing a Verizon store for 40k/yr or being a cold calling insurance salesmen) AND going to an ivy/similar school.

Honestly how many Asian kids do you know who say to you they're gonna go to college to be teachers or work in non profits or change the world bc that's their passion? They are raised to make SOLID money first and THEN if they want to do something else later in life like start a business or whatever, that's their choice. All of the Asians I grew up with (some w aforementioned engineer parents; some with convenience store parents) all went to the absolute best school that accepted them -- often ivys even if it meant serious parental and child sacrifice via loans -- and all are now doctors; engineers; lawyers; or on wall street. The engineers/lawyers/finance folks went to good enough schools to be recruited into major engineering firms, biglaw, and investment banking. We're all in our mid-late 30s now and some have already started to "step back" their careers bc they feel they made the $$. But lets be honest, 10+ yrs in biglaw or at Goldman gives you options that gov't lifers or non profit or social workers just don't have.

So go into teaching or social work or whatever your passion projects are, no one says you shouldn't. But don't act like it 's some mystery how certain nationalities are uplifting themselves/remaining financially solid generation after generation even if they don't come from money. Honestly what happened with Asians for 20-30 yrs in the US now seems to be happening with Nigerian Americans now.

Yep. Living the Indian American dream!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think wealth inequality has always existed - it’s just now so apparent due to the Internet. Now you can literally get a look at how the very wealthy live - see inside their homes through Zillow, view inside their country clubs and vacation locations online and see how much they pay for all of it. Years ago if you wanted to see a designer purse you had to drive to a store that stocked them in a city or town that had that store and talk to a human to view whatever they had in stock. Now, you can view hundreds online Giving the impression that it is all more within reach - but really, many of these things have always only been affordable to the truly wealthy, we just more aware of the differences.

There have always been a small percentage of really rich people. I think that percentage is seen as bigger than it is due to media coverage.

I also think the top 20% have a skewed view of their own situation. To a greater population than most in affluent regions realize, you are considered well-off if you are college educated.

I don't think this is true.

There are more millionaires then there's ever been.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think wealth inequality has always existed - it’s just now so apparent due to the Internet. Now you can literally get a look at how the very wealthy live - see inside their homes through Zillow, view inside their country clubs and vacation locations online and see how much they pay for all of it. Years ago if you wanted to see a designer purse you had to drive to a store that stocked them in a city or town that had that store and talk to a human to view whatever they had in stock. Now, you can view hundreds online Giving the impression that it is all more within reach - but really, many of these things have always only been affordable to the truly wealthy, we just more aware of the differences.

There have always been a small percentage of really rich people. I think that percentage is seen as bigger than it is due to media coverage.

I also think the top 20% have a skewed view of their own situation. To a greater population than most in affluent regions realize, you are considered well-off if you are college educated.

I don't think this is true.

There are more millionaires then there's ever been.

Millionaire isn't rich. Millionaire in flyover country are rich but many/most of these people are in high cost metro areas on the coasts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you feel like a sucker if you grew up middle class...your family obeyed all of the rules...worked the proverbial "9-5" and had nothing to show for it? I feel like we were suckers to work so heard and then couldn't even afford to go out (ever) nor go on vacations. I suspect most Americans are like this and only the uMC/rich get to enjoy the perks/profits off the backs of the MC

I grew up dirt poor. I slept on floor in living room with siblings in a rent stabilized place in a bad neighborhood with a bad tempered drunk quick with the belt in charge. I am a multimillionaire as well as brother. Middle class is tough as you had no role model like I did. A good beating now and then and no place to sleep will motivate you

[Anonymous]

It is a myth that the rich pay a lower tax rate than the power do. See below, as your income goes up so does your effective tax rate:

[Anonymous]

In Fairfax county teachers work on a 194 day contract. Most regular 9-5 jobs have maybe 10 holidays a year plus maybe 3-4 week of sick time + vacation time. So that works out to 230-240 working days a year vs 194.

For a teacher with 15 years of experience and a master's degree, they make $84,241 a year. That is a good salary for the working hours. A two teacher family would be making $170,000 a year. Even in the DC metro area that is a great family income.

As for teachers reporting 50-60 hour weeks. That just isn't true. See here: http://www.aei.org/publication/how-many-hours-do-public-school-teachers-really-work/

The self reported hours that teachers work is around 43 hours a week, this is less than average of college educated white-collar jobs on average. Also from the BLS, looking at time tracking methods (which would be more accurate than self reported methods) the average teacher works about 40 hours a week.

[Anonymous]

I think the original OP may have meant something like this dude:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Ayers

He apparently got a political consulting job during the second semester of his freshman year of college, which turned into working for the governor. He eventually got an (online?) BA from Kennesaw State University and by 35 was worth 58 million dollars. It does suggest that the rest of us, driving our kids around in minivans to SAT tutoring, are doing something wrong. Our kids probably won't be worth 58 million dollars by the time they're 35, or maybe ever, no matter how high their SAT scores are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the original OP may have meant something like this dude:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Ayers

He apparently got a political consulting job during the second semester of his freshman year of college, which turned into working for the governor. He eventually got an (online?) BA from Kennesaw State University and by 35 was worth 58 million dollars. It does suggest that the rest of us, driving our kids around in minivans to SAT tutoring, are doing something wrong. Our kids probably won't be worth 58 million dollars by the time they're 35, or maybe ever, no matter how high their SAT scores are.

So he got rich as campaign consultant?