Girl Scouts sues Boys Scouts for including girls

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of interesting but insufficiently informed posts on this string, mainly due to posters being unfamiliar with the Boy Scouts of America and its program and operational techniques. I am thoroughly familiar with both of them, so I will share a few items rather directly that some on this string will probably not agree with, but facts are facts. I will speak to the Junior-Senior high school programming currently called Boy Scouts that will become Scouts BSA in February. I remind everyone that the new program will not be co-ed. Boys will be only with boys and lead boys, and girls will be only with girls and lead girls

Girl Scouts has a horrible organizational model that limits access to its troops, which compared to Boy Scout Troops are small and temporarily-existing entities overseen by volunteer bureaucrats who add little value to the experience of the girls. Boy Scout Troops, when successful, are large entities that are fueled with about 15 adult leaders. A lot of these leaders are women – been that way for 15 years. The Boy Scout Troops range from 30 on the small side to many in the area that are from 80-100. They are subdivided into Patrols, and the entire thing is run by the boys with close advising by the Scoutmaster Staff of the unit. The BSA is taking the identical organizational approach with the Scouts BSA troops for Girls that will form in the spring. Scouts BSA Troops last indefinitely and include all ranges of ages from 11 to 18. They are large, sophisticated entities and girls are definitely up to running something big and sophisticated. Scouts BSA Troops (which will be the inclusive program name for both the all-girl and all-boy Troops) run by management techniques that minimize and eliminate wasted time, meetings and bureaucracy.

Advancement in Scouts BSA is rigorous and cumulative over many years. When a Scouts BSA member earns Eagle Scout, anyone in the community knows what they have learned – a comprehensive curriculum of outdoor, rescue, physical fitness, psychological toughness, citizenship and decision-making skills. When someone is an Eagle Scout, he – and soon she – is respected because they have passed a difficult and known series of tests. No exceptions are made. When someone is a Gold Girl Scout, that person is respected but there is no particular understanding of what was done to obtain the award. Eagles have lifelong preferences and career advancement through a strong and professionally-maintained network. Girls deserve to be part of that.

The outdoor and sophisticated technical curricula of Scouts BSA is advanced and implemented thoroughly by thousands of volunteers across the metropolitan area. It has been that way for decades. It remains to be seen whether the various and evolving program trends that are adopted and dropped by GSUSA will ever make a sustained impact on society the way Scouts BSA training does. Printing guide books and announcing a set of colorful badges to mimic the BSA curriculum does not, in itself, accomplish much.

The lawsuit by the GSUSA is a laugh. There is no “confusion” about what organization these families are joining. They are knowingly and purposefully joining the organization that families have justifiably relied on to significantly advance the prospects of generations of boys – and now girls. They know exactly what they are joining and why. It is nothing other than money-grubbing attempt by the GSUSA bureaucracy. If this is the best response the GSUSA has to offer (instead of cleaning up their own dysfunctional financial and management process), the movement will become a small specialty organization.

Finally, the cookie sales program and sale of historic GSUSA camps is the manner by which the GSUSA is addressing the systematic underfunding of the pensions of their employees. As a result, the percentage of profit kept by these GSUSA troops is a pittance compared to the normal profits of other youth organizations. Parents of girls despise the forced months of cookie sales and are leaving to get away from it.

Parents wanting a robust experience for their girls and volunteers wanting to rationally use their time and resources are avoid or leaving the GSUSA for good reasons.

Source, please?

[Anonymous]

19yo Girl Scout becomes one of the youngest women ever elected to NH House of Reps. Her campaign to raise the state marriage age won her the "prestigious Girl Scout Gold Award" (their words, not mine) as well as a full college scholarship, and then became state law earlier this summer. The scout was then inspired to run for local office and become a young legislator in her state.

Girl Scouts are doing great things.

http://www.fosters.com/news/20181107/cassie-levesque-19-among-youngest-elected-to-nh-house?fbclid=IwAR34_0kg2aGJIkBNsa59BtPIk7Ku9gMBrHt4Y-qUeYeXw7sGFWhyIhFYpSY

[Anonymous]

It sounds like overall, in general, the BSA is better run than the GSA. Perhaps people should ask for direction and ideas from the BSA leaders or the better runned GS.

So, some of the ladies who lead some of the GS are really not that equipped or trained or enticing for the GS to remain in that particular troop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I'm hearing out of this discussion is this:

1) Girl Scouts can and DO do cool things, say those who are in the knkow.
2) People who are NOT involved or not HEAVILY involved with Girls Scouts are not aware of this and mostly think of cookies when it comes to Girl Scouts.
3) Conclusion: Girl Scouts *have* moved and changed with the times, but needs to work on their PUBLIC BRANDING and IMAGE, because the message is not reaching those who are not involved.

Yes. I am a Girl Scout Troop Leader and there is so much inaccurate information being passed around. Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are and are intended to be different organizations. I believe Boy scouts has always been very focussed on the outdoors, camping, etc. Girl Scouts spreads itself wider- camping and the outdoors is ONE aspect of girl scouts. But there is much more- Girl Scouts is about leadership and confidence, that can come with doing service projects, classroom activities, fun outings, cookie selling (business activities), or outdoor activities. What is special about GS is that it is only for girls. GS is also more troop based, so the activities more about bonding with a close group, not large pack campouts.

I have said this in response to Girl Scout posts in the past: Girl Scouts is what the troop makes of it. If you want more outdoor activities in the troop, then get the training and talk to the leader about it!!! I do not enjoy camping. So our troop does a lot of service projects and crafts. We focus on leadership and doing new and exciting things. If a parent is not happy with this and wants to more outdoor opportunities for the girls, then they should take the initiative and plan something, rather than treat me like the extended care teacher! All the parents on DCUM bitch about the lack of outdoor activities for girl scouts, but I want to know- Have any of you offered to lead an outdoor event? As far as the badges, Girl Scouts can also earn fun patches for doing anything. You are not limited to the patches GS puts out. So even if there isn't an official badge for fishing, you can still take your girls fishing! But it requires a parent to take the initiative to make it happen, especially in the younger years.

Overall, I think each entity should have remained separate.

[Anonymous]

Dear all people on this thread. Please actually read the lawsuit. In particular, please read pages 22-35, which gives examples of GSUSA’s beef.

They are not suing over the use of the word “Scouts”. They are suing over BSA volunteers/low level employees producing marketing materials that say things like “join Boy/Girl Scouts” and using quotes from Juliette Low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dear all people on this thread. Please actually read the lawsuit. In particular, please read pages 22-35, which gives examples of GSUSA’s beef.

They are not suing over the use of the word “Scouts”. They are suing over BSA volunteers/low level employees producing marketing materials that say things like “join Boy/Girl Scouts” and using quotes from Juliette Low.

Thanks for posting this. It was very informative to read the specific examples: https://www.scribd.com/document/392523926/110618-SDNY-Girl-Scouts-v-Boy-Scouts-Complaint

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dear all people on this thread. Please actually read the lawsuit. In particular, please read pages 22-35, which gives examples of GSUSA’s beef.

They are not suing over the use of the word “Scouts”. They are suing over BSA volunteers/low level employees producing marketing materials that say things like “join Boy/Girl Scouts” and using quotes from Juliette Low.

Wow, that is really egregious. I don’t see how BSA can win that suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I'm hearing out of this discussion is this:

1) Girl Scouts can and DO do cool things, say those who are in the knkow.
2) People who are NOT involved or not HEAVILY involved with Girls Scouts are not aware of this and mostly think of cookies when it comes to Girl Scouts.
3) Conclusion: Girl Scouts *have* moved and changed with the times, but needs to work on their PUBLIC BRANDING and IMAGE, because the message is not reaching those who are not involved.

Yes. I am a Girl Scout Troop Leader and there is so much inaccurate information being passed around. Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are and are intended to be different organizations. I believe Boy scouts has always been very focussed on the outdoors, camping, etc. Girl Scouts spreads itself wider- camping and the outdoors is ONE aspect of girl scouts. But there is much more- Girl Scouts is about leadership and confidence, that can come with doing service projects, classroom activities, fun outings, cookie selling (business activities), or outdoor activities. What is special about GS is that it is only for girls. GS is also more troop based, so the activities more about bonding with a close group, not large pack campouts.

I have said this in response to Girl Scout posts in the past: Girl Scouts is what the troop makes of it. If you want more outdoor activities in the troop, then get the training and talk to the leader about it!!! I do not enjoy camping. So our troop does a lot of service projects and crafts. We focus on leadership and doing new and exciting things. If a parent is not happy with this and wants to more outdoor opportunities for the girls, then they should take the initiative and plan something, rather than treat me like the extended care teacher! All the parents on DCUM bitch about the lack of outdoor activities for girl scouts, but I want to know- Have any of you offered to lead an outdoor event? As far as the badges, Girl Scouts can also earn fun patches for doing anything. You are not limited to the patches GS puts out. So even if there isn't an official badge for fishing, you can still take your girls fishing! But it requires a parent to take the initiative to make it happen, especially in the younger years.

Overall, I think each entity should have remained separate.

That would be me. I’m level trained, first aid and camping trained. I can plan the camp out. But I need another parent that is FA or camp trained to go on a campout with me. Oh, and I need the girls to attend.....

You’re right GS is what the girls make it. In my DDs troop, they were only interested in indoor activities. Camping, hiking, canoing, ropes courses, fishing—-nope. Just not interested. I called the SU and Council to look for a more appropriate troop—they told me they would look around and never got back to me. I decided to start an outdoor troop—parents showed up for the interest meeting but when learning it would be mostly focused on outdoor activities, they decided not to register their daughter.

DD is becoming a Boy Scout in Feb because all of the things she enjoys are going to available to her with other like minded girls. I really don’t care what the umbrella organization is. I care that I found a group of girls that my daughter has similar interests. GS can make the opportunity available but can’t make it happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear all people on this thread. Please actually read the lawsuit. In particular, please read pages 22-35, which gives examples of GSUSA’s beef.

They are not suing over the use of the word “Scouts”. They are suing over BSA volunteers/low level employees producing marketing materials that say things like “join Boy/Girl Scouts” and using quotes from Juliette Low.

Thanks for posting this. It was very informative to read the specific examples: https://www.scribd.com/document/392523926/110618-SDNY-Girl-Scouts-v-Boy-Scouts-Complaint

Thank you for posting the real story - I hate the click bait of news headlines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dear all people on this thread. Please actually read the lawsuit. In particular, please read pages 22-35, which gives examples of GSUSA’s beef.

They are not suing over the use of the word “Scouts”. They are suing over BSA volunteers/low level employees producing marketing materials that say things like “join Boy/Girl Scouts” and using quotes from Juliette Low.

Thanks for posting this. It was very informative to read the specific examples: https://www.scribd.com/document/392523926/110618-SDNY-Girl-Scouts-v-Boy-Scouts-Complaint

Thank you for posting the real story - I hate the click bait of news headlines.

THANK YOU.

People out in the world are telling parents "There's no Girl Scouts anymore... it's all Scouts BSA. We have joined together now.

We have girl Scout troops and boy Scout troops."

Obviously that is confusing when it is time to sign your kid up for something.

[Anonymous]

Girl Scouts is lame. My oldest DD did it for two years, and was bored and quit. Every meeting was finger painting or making macaroni necklaces and she was too old for htat. All GS cared about was cookie sales. My younger DD has no interest in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Girl Scouts is lame. My oldest DD did it for two years, and was bored and quit. Every meeting was finger painting or making macaroni necklaces and she was too old for htat. All GS cared about was cookie sales. My younger DD has no interest in it.

This is why GS being 'what you make of it' is stupid. Every girl and scout should have access to the same level of activity choices and rigorous training no matter who your troop leader is. By keeping your troops small and each one's leadership limited to 1-2 moms, it really limits the exposure of the girls, the activities they can participate in or have access to, and the overall desirability of participation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Girl Scouts is lame. My oldest DD did it for two years, and was bored and quit. Every meeting was finger painting or making macaroni necklaces and she was too old for htat. All GS cared about was cookie sales. My younger DD has no interest in it.

This is why GS being 'what you make of it' is stupid. Every girl and scout should have access to the same level of activity choices and rigorous training no matter who your troop leader is. By keeping your troops small and each one's leadership limited to 1-2 moms, it really limits the exposure of the girls, the activities they can participate in or have access to, and the overall desirability of participation.

Yes, exactly. We moved into a small community that had a Girl Scout troop. My daughter was interested and I was willing to help, but the troop was “full”. The SU had no advice except to say that groups could limit size and recommended starting a new troop. There were a few other girls that would have liked to join, but I could not find a co-leader, all the parents willing to get involved were with the other troop. Thankfully, we also had a son that did cub scouts. Dd wasn’t officially part of the troop, but they welcomed her at meetings, she could come on the camping trips and hikes with the family, and even participated in pinewood derby. She loved it and would have loved to be an official member and move on to Boy Scouts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Girl Scouts is lame. My oldest DD did it for two years, and was bored and quit. Every meeting was finger painting or making macaroni necklaces and she was too old for htat. All GS cared about was cookie sales. My younger DD has no interest in it.

This is why GS being 'what you make of it' is stupid. Every girl and scout should have access to the same level of activity choices and rigorous training no matter who your troop leader is. By keeping your troops small and each one's leadership limited to 1-2 moms, it really limits the exposure of the girls, the activities they can participate in or have access to, and the overall desirability of participation.

I have hefty experience with both GSUSA and BSA. The flip side of your complaint about GS is that if you are unhappy with your daughter's troop experience it is enormously easy to just start your own troop. Find ONE likeminded adult and a few girls and you are good to go.

In Boy Scouts, if you are unhappy with your son's Cub Scout pack or Boy Scout troop experience, it is much more difficult to start your own pack or troop. In my town, we did not have a Cub Scout pack for quite a while. Two dads attempted to start one. They needed to find an organization to charter it, people to be on the Troop Committee, and 10 den leaders. The dads that organized it all ended up spending SO MUCH time on organizing the whole pack, they barely had any time to do fun stuff with their own boys. After 4 years the pack never really got off the ground and only had 20 boys total....grades 1-5.

There is a Boy Scout troop I know of that is barely limping along as well. They only have three active adults. You could have a decent Girl Scout troop with 3 active leaders and parent support here and there. But a Boy Scout troop really needs a lot more infrastructure to be as great as a previous poster mentioned. Boy Scout troops have hefty infrastructure and require a lot more manpower than Girl Scout troops. In my opinion neither structure is better or worse. They are simply different.

As far as the Boy Scout program goes, I have a son working towards Eagle right now, and I will say I feel it is very individual (or parent) driven. Boys can advance or not. If they want to advance, it is up to them and their parents to make sure it happens. For example, the work on all the merit badges happens outside of troop meetings, and I as a parent have to be pretty involved in it, because the boys aren't allowed to meet on their own with the merit badge counselors. I need to be aware of every contact for safety reasons, and my son needs a buddy or a parent along if he is going to meet with a merit badge counselor. So in addition to going to meetings every week, my son is on his own going to work on merit badge stuff on the weekends, and that requires me to help out as he is not yet driving.

As a Girl Scout leader, we basically did any badges, Journeys or higher metal awards as a troop. In theory they can be earned individually but the Girl Scout program makes it quite hard for parents to know what the requirements are or to figure out how girls have earned these awards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I'm hearing out of this discussion is this:

1) Girl Scouts can and DO do cool things, say those who are in the knkow.
2) People who are NOT involved or not HEAVILY involved with Girls Scouts are not aware of this and mostly think of cookies when it comes to Girl Scouts.
3) Conclusion: Girl Scouts *have* moved and changed with the times, but needs to work on their PUBLIC BRANDING and IMAGE, because the message is not reaching those who are not involved.

Yes. I am a Girl Scout Troop Leader and there is so much inaccurate information being passed around. Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are and are intended to be different organizations. I believe Boy scouts has always been very focussed on the outdoors, camping, etc. Girl Scouts spreads itself wider- camping and the outdoors is ONE aspect of girl scouts. But there is much more- Girl Scouts is about leadership and confidence, that can come with doing service projects, classroom activities, fun outings, cookie selling (business activities), or outdoor activities. What is special about GS is that it is only for girls. GS is also more troop based, so the activities more about bonding with a close group, not large pack campouts.

I have said this in response to Girl Scout posts in the past: Girl Scouts is what the troop makes of it. If you want more outdoor activities in the troop, then get the training and talk to the leader about it!!! I do not enjoy camping. So our troop does a lot of service projects and crafts. We focus on leadership and doing new and exciting things. If a parent is not happy with this and wants to more outdoor opportunities for the girls, then they should take the initiative and plan something, rather than treat me like the extended care teacher! All the parents on DCUM bitch about the lack of outdoor activities for girl scouts, but I want to know- Have any of you offered to lead an outdoor event? As far as the badges, Girl Scouts can also earn fun patches for doing anything. You are not limited to the patches GS puts out. So even if there isn't an official badge for fishing, you can still take your girls fishing! But it requires a parent to take the initiative to make it happen, especially in the younger years.

Overall, I think each entity should have remained separate.

That would be me. I’m level trained, first aid and camping trained. I can plan the camp out. But I need another parent that is FA or camp trained to go on a campout with me. Oh, and I need the girls to attend.....

You’re right GS is what the girls make it. In my DDs troop, they were only interested in indoor activities. Camping, hiking, canoing, ropes courses, fishing—-nope. Just not interested. I called the SU and Council to look for a more appropriate troop—they told me they would look around and never got back to me. I decided to start an outdoor troop—parents showed up for the interest meeting but when learning it would be mostly focused on outdoor activities, they decided not to register their daughter.

DD is becoming a Boy Scout in Feb because all of the things she enjoys are going to available to her with other like minded girls. I really don’t care what the umbrella organization is. I care that I found a group of girls that my daughter has similar interests. GS can make the opportunity available but can’t make it happen.

NP here. We have different adult volunteers (parents) acting as different roles for each of these: one is a leader, I am a co-leader, another is the CPR-trained parent, another is the camping parent, another is the cookie mom, another is the money manager, etc. Granted, we are a big troop. And we keep adding because more and more girls in their classes keep hearing how much they like it, so they join the following year too (some who dropped out in previous years even change their minds and return, because they realize it is really a substantive experience and not artsy-craftsy in the least.) We started out as Daisies and now they are 5th grade Juniors. We have 21 girls total. So, that is a lot of potential parents to pull from to fill all of these roles. It is mostly girl-driven. The parents participate because they know the girls like it so much and want to go to the events because all the other girls are going, so they step up and participate too. This year, we have done camping, archery, high-adventure ropes courses and it is only November. We are beginning work on the Bronze Award. We have studied girls in developing countries and hosted a Service Unit - wide event led by a former Peace Corps mom where girls got to dress up in native African costumes, baby-wear 20 lb babies ("bags of rice"), carry water, and view "Girl Rising" movie excerpts followed by discussion about the need for greater education and opportunities for girls in the developing world. We are not an artsy-crafts troop at all not that there is anything wrong with that but our main leader is a former engineer, so her brain doesn't really go in that direction when planning events, and the girls have responded in kind. When I read about other troops on here, I feel so fortunate for our very active troop, and very active adult volunteers.