How is the new pilot offering equivalent to TPMS/Eastern

[Anonymous]

MCPS dropped the finals after bad publicity about high failure rates, especially on the Algebra final.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wtop.com/montgomery-county/2015/07/montgomery-county-final-exam-failures-continue/amp/

Preparing our kids for final colleges is an important consideration, but one that I feel is secondary. If that were the only reason to give finals, there would be no reason for colleges to do it in the first place.

It is easy, and therefore common to cram for a quiz or a unit test the night before, manage to pass a test, and promptly forget the material. A final exam motivates the kids to actually learn the material, knowing they'll need it again. At the very least, they cram for it twice, giving them slightly better odds for retention. It encourages students to look at the course as a whole, rather than separate chunks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Sorry, I can't get past this -- there are no final exams in MCPS? Is this true of all grades?

I never understand why some people find this so shocking. Since I didn't encounter final exams until college, what I found shocking is the idea of final exams in high school..

Did you feel prepared to take your final exams in college? I had to take finals throughout middle and high school, and felt they were very good preparation for college. (I actually thought college was much easier than high school).

PP you're responding to. Yes, I did. I also didn't have grades in elementary school, yet I felt prepared for letter grades in middle school and high school.

A change in grading system is totally different than not being exposed to fully cumulative exams before having to take them in college.

It's great that you felt prepared, but I really worry a lot of kids will be totally unprepared for the massive task of doing a comprehensive review of a year's worth of material ahead of a final exam. it takes years to hone those study skills and develop the stamina to study for a battery of finals. I think we're doing our kids a real disservice here.

Well my DS did have final exams in MCPS before graduating and let me tell you, he was still not prepared for finals in college. This is a kid who took "rigorous classes" (APs and honors) had a very good GPA and excellent standardized tests scores. Also got merit from lots of selective colleges. My point, is that having final exams in high school does not necessarily prepare kids for the expectations of college performance. Also, I think a lot of these AP classes have been modified to the point that they aren't close to a college level class. That's why many schools are reconsidering allowing kids to "test out" of freshman level classes. They don't feel that the AP classes were equivalent.

+1

UMD Professor

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Going back to the OP's question which is whether the new pilot would be equivalent I think the short answer is probably not. I realize that MCPS has not given us any details of these two classes but I don't think it is possible to replicate the magnet experience in the home school because:
1. Peer cohort. Eastern and TPMS bring together the most motivated and highest performing kids from 20 home middle schools and this does create a special learning environment and allows teachers to move more quickly and dig deeper. It is one of the most important (and most subtle) advantages of a true magnet program.
2. At Eastern at least, you have three magnet courses (four in sixth grade) and the teachers coordinate with each other throughout the year. So for example, in 6th grade when you learn about the Russian Empire in World Studies, you would be reading Animal Farm in English. During Greek Fest you learn about Greek history and culture in World Studies, read Greek myths in English and this culminates in an all day interdisciplinary festival where students participate in Socratic debates, display posters about famous Greeks they have researched, write and perform skits that meld modern media tools and Greek mythology and screen Greek themed animation shorts they made in their media class.
In seventh grade, they research and write a ten page research paper which is more involved than anything my child has done in high school including AP courses. They spend two days in the UMD library doing research and are expected to use scholarly books and articles as part of their research. This paper is a project that is jointly supervised by their history and english teachers.
In eighth grade they do smaller projects but many of them are interdisciplinary. The CSPAN documentary for example (you may have seen the thread about the number of Eastern kids who won awards this year) is primarily a media project but the students find their topics as a result of work they do in their 8th grade US History class. They make several documentaries that year and I would say all of them are heavily informed by material they learn in their US History class.
3. The workload is quite high and one of the reasons the middle school and high school magnet programs have been so successful is because they have typically screened for intelligence (Cogat and MAP scores), ability/study skills (grades and teacher recs.) and motivation (teacher recs and application essays). It also means that the curricula and expectations are not likely to be dumbed down and watered down over time.
There are tons of projects and papers every single year and the expectations are really high. Even classes like media which sounds easy involve a lot of work especially in 8th grade when you make a few documentaries, and work on several other projects including a capstone personal project (my son for example wrote an eighty page novella).
One of the main reasons the kids get so much out of the program is because the teachers give them very demanding projects and papers and expect them to perform at a high level.
The interdisciplinary projects are especially tough because every year there are several time periods when you have multiple projects and papers due simultaneously in all of your magnet classes. I have to say though that as stressful as that can be, these are the experiences my kid got the most out of because he was only able to make deep and meaningful connections across the disciplines as a result of these cross and interdisciplinary projects.

This is OP. Thank you to all who have tried to stay relatively on topic, especially 03/09/2018 08:14 (who answered my questions), and those who avoided the bait of some random posters making preposterous remarks about the selection process (i.e. somehow it was base on URM, or that the "snowflakes" who weren't selected weren't as qualified and deserve it). We know cohort was used strongly as a selection process and I am fine with that as I do feel kids who are outliers in lower performing schools need opportunities, too. So kudos to mcps for trying to make the shift. However, the questions in place are if the handful of kids who are qualified but kept back to the local schools are being serviced properly, and are administrators and teachers being given a fair opportunity to support them? This is where mcps really failed, in my opinion. Also, what about the kids who are qualified but opted out of taking the test because they did not know that a pilot program was opening up at their middle school? At the end of the day, it is the teachers who make this happen and if they feel ill-prepared to support because there isn't a rigorous program in place or all the training/time necessary to support such program isn't there, it does all of us a disservice in wasting resources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think one thing to keep in mind is 2000 kids were tested for the magnets. That means about 1900 were sent a rejection letter. That letter explained that sometimes a strong student isn't accepted and explained the cohort concept; however, the majority of those students were not rejected because of a cohort, the majority of those students were simply rejected, they have a cohort that is the regular student population. So now you are waiting to hear if your student has been chosen for the pilot program, that's the March letter mentioned, but no one knows where they stand until then.

+1 - The beauty of an online Board like this is that everyone talks past each other. 4000 kids were tested for 200 seats. Many of those students were above average on the CogAT, but did not perform at levels that require academic challenge to be successful. It is important to read the learning profile associated with the test score - it gives insight into student need. MCPS will be looking at those students whose learning profiles say they become disengaged if not challenged, challenged, challenged for the new pilot in the home schools. This is not an effort to place 4000, or even 2000 students into new classes at the home school. There is much ado about nothing at this point. As Lin Manuel Miranda so aptly wrote, “wait for it.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, you're talking about MCPS here. This is a school system where the advanced kids get reading class once a week because they don't need it as much.

then move or go to a private school. it’s asinine to hate on something you have zero details on.

I would like to hear more.
Deposits for private school admits are due Thursday March 16th. Yesterday's mtg was helpful but I'd like to understand what the county is doing for high caliber kids who don't/can't go to magnet programs in Wheaton/Silver Spring.
They have one week to provide more color and prove their determination, otherwise my kids are done. They will take their Blue Ribbon BS test scores, extracurriculars, and other qualities with them. The last 5 years, save for the HGC program, have been a disappointment.

Priority 2 should be vastly limiting the time doing Chromebook games in Grades 1,2, and 3. No more of this finish your work in 20 minutes and play computer games for 60 minutes stuff. 3 times a day. Terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically they're going to do some tracking which they swore they'd never do. I have a kid at Eastern and while she enjoys the magnet, she is not thrilled about being out of her home school.

right. they’re going back to something closer to what a lot of us had in school.

you mean closer to what they had up until 2012.

[Anonymous]

Valid points OP. Some of the stress of being involved as a guinea pig for a pilot project is that the results cannot be known until the data is collected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Going back to the OP's question which is whether the new pilot would be equivalent I think the short answer is probably not. I realize that MCPS has not given us any details of these two classes but I don't think it is possible to replicate the magnet experience in the home school because:
1. Peer cohort. Eastern and TPMS bring together the most motivated and highest performing kids from 20 home middle schools and this does create a special learning environment and allows teachers to move more quickly and dig deeper. It is one of the most important (and most subtle) advantages of a true magnet program.
2. At Eastern at least, you have three magnet courses (four in sixth grade) and the teachers coordinate with each other throughout the year. So for example, in 6th grade when you learn about the Russian Empire in World Studies, you would be reading Animal Farm in English. During Greek Fest you learn about Greek history and culture in World Studies, read Greek myths in English and this culminates in an all day interdisciplinary festival where students participate in Socratic debates, display posters about famous Greeks they have researched, write and perform skits that meld modern media tools and Greek mythology and screen Greek themed animation shorts they made in their media class.
In seventh grade, they research and write a ten page research paper which is more involved than anything my child has done in high school including AP courses. They spend two days in the UMD library doing research and are expected to use scholarly books and articles as part of their research. This paper is a project that is jointly supervised by their history and english teachers.
In eighth grade they do smaller projects but many of them are interdisciplinary. The CSPAN documentary for example (you may have seen the thread about the number of Eastern kids who won awards this year) is primarily a media project but the students find their topics as a result of work they do in their 8th grade US History class. They make several documentaries that year and I would say all of them are heavily informed by material they learn in their US History class.
3. The workload is quite high and one of the reasons the middle school and high school magnet programs have been so successful is because they have typically screened for intelligence (Cogat and MAP scores), ability/study skills (grades and teacher recs.) and motivation (teacher recs and application essays). It also means that the curricula and expectations are not likely to be dumbed down and watered down over time.
There are tons of projects and papers every single year and the expectations are really high. Even classes like media which sounds easy involve a lot of work especially in 8th grade when you make a few documentaries, and work on several other projects including a capstone personal project (my son for example wrote an eighty page novella).
One of the main reasons the kids get so much out of the program is because the teachers give them very demanding projects and papers and expect them to perform at a high level.
The interdisciplinary projects are especially tough because every year there are several time periods when you have multiple projects and papers due simultaneously in all of your magnet classes. I have to say though that as stressful as that can be, these are the experiences my kid got the most out of because he was only able to make deep and meaningful connections across the disciplines as a result of these cross and interdisciplinary projects.

This is OP. Thank you to all who have tried to stay relatively on topic, especially 03/09/2018 08:14 (who answered my questions), and those who avoided the bait of some random posters making preposterous remarks about the selection process (i.e. somehow it was base on URM, or that the "snowflakes" who weren't selected weren't as qualified and deserve it). We know cohort was used strongly as a selection process and I am fine with that as I do feel kids who are outliers in lower performing schools need opportunities, too. So kudos to mcps for trying to make the shift. However, the questions in place are if the handful of kids who are qualified but kept back to the local schools are being serviced properly, and are administrators and teachers being given a fair opportunity to support them? This is where mcps really failed, in my opinion. Also, what about the kids who are qualified but opted out of taking the test because they did not know that a pilot program was opening up at their middle school? At the end of the day, it is the teachers who make this happen and if they feel ill-prepared to support because there isn't a rigorous program in place or all the training/time necessary to support such program isn't there, it does all of us a disservice in wasting resources.

OP, I think MCPS has to start somewhere and yes, it will be a roller coaster ride for the first cohort of kids and teachers but that is the nature of a field test. The teachers have to grow into their new roles just like anyone starting a new job/responsibilities. Also, MCPS will most like have some sort of appeal process for students that didn't take the test. If not, I think parents have the right to contact their school and advocate on behalf of their kids that did not take the Cogat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a teacher not a parent, and I believe there should be differentiation for gifted kids, but here are my predictions:

Admin and counselors at places like Cabin John and Pyle get DELUGED with calls/emails from parents who think their child should be in the pilot classes. “We wanted to be close to home so we didn’t apply to the magnet, but my child could have gotten in and therefore they should be in that section.” There probably are way more qualified kids at a huge school like Pyle than there are spots in those classes.

Teachers get ticked off that they have five minutes to learn yet another curriculum, knowing that many parents will be displeased with the rollout and they’ll be the ones to bear the brunt of that.

Mega scheduling problems—yet to be determined, sure to happen. Tons of annoyed counselors upset that they too have yet another thing to deal with. Hopefully that master scheduling training will be done well.

Totally irritated principals who have disdain for the “pushy” gifted community who think their children are “special snowflakes”—and who’ve been trying to head off this type of differentiation for years. They now will have to admit defeat on the matter, at least temporarily.

It won’t be enough. No matter what, it won’t be enough. And there will be a lot of unhappy parents whose kids don’t get to take these classes. And so...

Eventually everyone will get to take the magnet-ish classes, and we’ll all be back to where we started. ?

THis is an MCPS mis-management problem. That negatively effects children, parents, teachers and increasingly the county's reputation. They change and rolled out C2.0 horribly - it alienated all three sets of shareholders terribly.
Now it's making baby steps to correct it. I'd argue it should drastically correct it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP, I think MCPS has to start somewhere and yes, it will be a roller coaster ride for the first cohort of kids and teachers but that is the nature of a field test. The teachers have to grow into their new roles just like anyone starting a new job/responsibilities. Also, MCPS will most like have some sort of appeal process for students that didn't take the test. If not, I think parents have the right to contact their school and advocate on behalf of their kids that did not take the Cogat.

I agree. I think that a lot of the complaints on DCUM go like this:

1. The current situation is bad.
2. Any change from the current situation is bad.

But as you say, it has to start somewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

THis is an MCPS mis-management problem. That negatively effects children, parents, teachers and increasingly the county's reputation. They change and rolled out C2.0 horribly - it alienated all three sets of shareholders terribly.
Now it's making baby steps to correct it. I'd argue it should drastically correct it.

DCUM hated on all things MCPS before C2.0, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

THis is an MCPS mis-management problem. That negatively effects children, parents, teachers and increasingly the county's reputation. They change and rolled out C2.0 horribly - it alienated all three sets of shareholders terribly.
Now it's making baby steps to correct it. I'd argue it should drastically correct it.

DCUM hated on all things MCPS before C2.0, too.

Everything is terrible, but changing it is also terrible ...

And you wonder why no one wants to become a school administrator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a teacher not a parent, and I believe there should be differentiation for gifted kids, but here are my predictions:

Admin and counselors at places like Cabin John and Pyle get DELUGED with calls/emails from parents who think their child should be in the pilot classes. “We wanted to be close to home so we didn’t apply to the magnet, but my child could have gotten in and therefore they should be in that section.” There probably are way more qualified kids at a huge school like Pyle than there are spots in those classes.

Teachers get ticked off that they have five minutes to learn yet another curriculum, knowing that many parents will be displeased with the rollout and they’ll be the ones to bear the brunt of that.

Mega scheduling problems—yet to be determined, sure to happen. Tons of annoyed counselors upset that they too have yet another thing to deal with. Hopefully that master scheduling training will be done well.

Totally irritated principals who have disdain for the “pushy” gifted community who think their children are “special snowflakes”—and who’ve been trying to head off this type of differentiation for years. They now will have to admit defeat on the matter, at least temporarily.

It won’t be enough. No matter what, it won’t be enough. And there will be a lot of unhappy parents whose kids don’t get to take these classes. And so...

Eventually everyone will get to take the magnet-ish classes, and we’ll all be back to where we started. ?

I am a teacher and a parent who fully supports your perspective.

My oldest decided not to take the magnet test as she didn't think she'd make the cut, but more importantly, she said she knows her stress level too well! Having said that, I personally am against magnets. But what makes me laugh is the ironic measures the system takes in creating and supporting test in magnets, "special magnets" (Argyle, Loiderman, and Parkland), and now school-based magnets.

Instead of spending money busing kids from one school to the next and instead of trying to accommodate every Snowflake at the non-magnet schools, go back to community-supported schools and RAMP UP the rigor in on level classes. Oh - and let's not forget the "all honors" courses, where a course is labeled as advanced across the board.

If even half of you knew what went on in "regular" classes, you'd lose your minds. We are graduating kids who can barely read and write, and I blame multiple stakeholders for shortsighted visions, fear of lawsuits, and selfish motives.

Teacher again. Exactly. “On level” should look like what currently stands as “honors.” I recommend well-behaved, responsible kids take honors even if ability-wise they should be on-level, because on-level is often remedial or full of disruptive kids who won’t be held accountable for their behavior. The problem with all of this isn’t that the county is trying to implement a stop-gap measure, it’s that as usual they plowed ahead without considering all the ramifications. I believe in equity and understand what they’re trying to do, and even support it to a large extent, but it wasn’t done thoughtfully. And if we want our county schools to stay highly regarded, MCPS has to also meet the needs of the high performers. I think the biggest losers here in the end will be Westland and Pyle, because their size means there are many many high performers, and the parents are going to lose their minds when their kids don’t get into these GT classes. Or they’ll all have their kids start taking the magnet test, maybe even prep for it—not to go, but to ensure they get a space in one of these home school classes. I hope MCPS really thinks through all the possibilities before next year. I do think they should pilot SOMETHING in the home schools, but if they want to keep up staff morale, they’re going to have to be pretty sensitive with how they approach teachers/counselors about these changes. Last summer/start of year was a disaster in terms of tech implementation, and if there’s another hasty, failed roll out that sets staff up to be ambushed by miserable parents, and that also stresses out their admin to the point that they’re cranky and take it out on theim, I think there will be a teacher exodus. Everyone is replaceable, but at some point you’re losing the seasoned teachers and filling those slots with really inexperienced professionals. It’s already happening to a certain extent, though there are other factors too — weak leadership, long commutes, low performers bringing everyone else down etc..

Correct, all Pyle and Westland kids will be taking the magnet test and the parents will either work out elaborate car pool schemes and do it OR use those high test scores to demand appropriate level classes in their home MS.

Very fair. Those two schools have been hearing about this issue the last 24 months. Especially after their kids return from the Chevy Chase HGC for 4th and 5th to a total disaster for 6th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one thing to keep in mind is 2000 kids were tested for the magnets. That means about 1900 were sent a rejection letter. That letter explained that sometimes a strong student isn't accepted and explained the cohort concept; however, the majority of those students were not rejected because of a cohort, the majority of those students were simply rejected, they have a cohort that is the regular student population. So now you are waiting to hear if your student has been chosen for the pilot program, that's the March letter mentioned, but no one knows where they stand until then.

+1 - The beauty of an online Board like this is that everyone talks past each other. 4000 kids were tested for 200 seats. Many of those students were above average on the CogAT, but did not perform at levels that require academic challenge to be successful. It is important to read the learning profile associated with the test score - it gives insight into student need. MCPS will be looking at those students whose learning profiles say they become disengaged if not challenged, challenged, challenged for the new pilot in the home schools. This is not an effort to place 4000, or even 2000 students into new classes at the home school. There is much ado about nothing at this point. As Lin Manuel Miranda so aptly wrote, “wait for it.”

What is "many"? How do you know how "many" did not perform well enough on multiple tests to not qualify? The problem is none of us fully knows. Even if we obtain raw scores for our kid and some additional median score, there is a lot of interpretation that can come from it. The only thing I feel I got out of this entire selection process is that the kids, no matter what their URM status are, who were picked for TPMS/Eastern are highly qualified. The other thing I feel I got out of this is that kids who were just as qualified were rejected and no equivalent curriculum is provided or the resources given to support them. There is an attempt by mcps for something, but from the responses I read from the teachers as well as the response from poster discuss the rigor of the Eastern/TPMS, there is no comparison. Again, Rome wasn't built in a day and I don't expect mcps to solve all these issues in a year. However, communication seem unclear and plans are ad hoc. They should have been a lot more clear to all parties prior to the administration of the magnet test/application process. They should have done a better job at outlining what they plan to do short term and long term. If you think about it, communication is so poor that even a simple opt-in/out CES letter required deciphering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP, I think MCPS has to start somewhere and yes, it will be a roller coaster ride for the first cohort of kids and teachers but that is the nature of a field test. The teachers have to grow into their new roles just like anyone starting a new job/responsibilities. Also, MCPS will most like have some sort of appeal process for students that didn't take the test. If not, I think parents have the right to contact their school and advocate on behalf of their kids that did not take the Cogat.

I agree. I think that a lot of the complaints on DCUM go like this:

1. The current situation is bad.
2. Any change from the current situation is bad.

But as you say, it has to start somewhere.

the current situation is unprecedently bad. Common Core, curriculum 2.0, dropping ability tracking, only focusing on bottom students, 3+ computer MAP tests a year. Bad. embarassingly bad. I really hope the AdComs at universities don't read DCUM.