How do I handle this? Teacher gave kid F for questionable reasons. (Long)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, I see the point about being the second to burp. I'll be sure to work with my child so I can ensure he never again engages in Defiant & Disrespectful Burping (which was surely his goal).

I would bet, though, that if Sarah Sweetpea burped immediately after her lab mate did the same, she wouldn't have been told to sit for the last five minutes and lost 20% of the grade. This is a good lesson for my kid, though, in that he is annoying and therefore will be punished more aggressively.

OP, your goal is not to get your kid through childhood with the fewest possible consequences for his ADHD, because his ADHD isn't going to disappear when he graduates. Your job right now is to help him develop the skills he will need to manage his ADHD as an adult so that he's not getting fired from jobs for cracking jokes inappropriate during a client meeting and getting divorced because his spouse can't tolerate his unwillingness to take responsibility for himself. Man up and be a better parent.

I agree with you that my goal is not to get him through with fewest consequences. I work extensively with him on developing skills to manage his ADHD (including educating him that judgments stick), and believe it or not, he is very much held accountable for his behavior. While "man up and be a better parent" is not that helpful (in that I'm not a man, and I think we all strive to be better parents), I appreciate your thoughts.

So what are the consequences going to be here? He was disrespectful to his teacher, he goofed around so badly during the lab that he got a D, and then when asked, he lied to you about it. In your original post, you said:

He says he was telling funny stories with his group during lab but he wasn't doing anything "wrong". (He has plenty of experience reflecting upon and admitting to poor behavior). I ask him if she asked him to stop. No. I asked him if he was disruptive. No. I asked him if he completed the lab steps and did the work. Yes. I ask him to seriously think about it and what might have resulted in an F. He is devastated because he really believes he was doing nothing different from others, finished all the work, cleaned his materials, etc.

Except that wasn't true. The teacher did tell them to stop burping and he did it anyway. He didn't complete all of the lab steps and didn't clean up his materials because he had to sit out the last five minutes. Even if she didn't say anything to him at the time about saying he would smack the kid (or if he didn't remember), he remembers that he had to sit out for the last five minutes of the lab and didn't actually finish as a result (and if he doesn't, you may have bigger neurological issues you need to be looking into). You asked your kid for an explanation, and he lied. This is something you need to hold him accountable for.

You also need to acknowledge that his current coping strategies are not working. It's not just about this class, it's about the fact that all of his teachers are reporting to you that he is struggling with managing his symptoms and doing what he needs to do. Just because he's not actively disrupting other students (although any time his teachers need to take away from teaching to address his behavior arguably does disrupt class for the rest of them) doesn't mean that it's not a problem that he's not paying attention and is doing things he's not supposed to (such as playing on his ipad). He needs better strategies or school is going to get worse for him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, I see the point about being the second to burp. I'll be sure to work with my child so I can ensure he never again engages in Defiant & Disrespectful Burping (which was surely his goal).

I would bet, though, that if Sarah Sweetpea burped immediately after her lab mate did the same, she wouldn't have been told to sit for the last five minutes and lost 20% of the grade. This is a good lesson for my kid, though, in that he is annoying and therefore will be punished more aggressively.

OP, I'm glad the grade itself got cleared up. It sounds like the teacher kept pretty detailed notes to be able to tell you those kinds of details.

Now... it's time for you to realize that your sons behavior wasn't acceptable.
He wasn't supposed to be telling funny stories. He was supposed to be concentrating on the task at hand and working with his classmates.
He wasn't supposed to be burping (gross) intentionally in class at all, let alone immediately after that particular action had just been reprimanded.

Sarah Sweetpea didn't have to sit out the last 5 minutes of class because Sarah Sweetpea built up a quarter's worth of experience so the teacher believed that if she had burped, it was because she really needed to.

It's time start expecting more of your son.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, I see the point about being the second to burp. I'll be sure to work with my child so I can ensure he never again engages in Defiant & Disrespectful Burping (which was surely his goal).

I would bet, though, that if Sarah Sweetpea burped immediately after her lab mate did the same, she wouldn't have been told to sit for the last five minutes and lost 20% of the grade. This is a good lesson for my kid, though, in that he is annoying and therefore will be punished more aggressively.

OP, your goal is not to get your kid through childhood with the fewest possible consequences for his ADHD, because his ADHD isn't going to disappear when he graduates. Your job right now is to help him develop the skills he will need to manage his ADHD as an adult so that he's not getting fired from jobs for cracking jokes inappropriate during a client meeting and getting divorced because his spouse can't tolerate his unwillingness to take responsibility for himself. Man up and be a better parent.

I agree with you that my goal is not to get him through with fewest consequences. I work extensively with him on developing skills to manage his ADHD (including educating him that judgments stick), and believe it or not, he is very much held accountable for his behavior. While "man up and be a better parent" is not that helpful (in that I'm not a man, and I think we all strive to be better parents), I appreciate your thoughts.

So what are the consequences going to be here? He was disrespectful to his teacher, he goofed around so badly during the lab that he got a D, and then when asked, he lied to you about it. In your original post, you said:

He says he was telling funny stories with his group during lab but he wasn't doing anything "wrong". (He has plenty of experience reflecting upon and admitting to poor behavior). I ask him if she asked him to stop. No. I asked him if he was disruptive. No. I asked him if he completed the lab steps and did the work. Yes. I ask him to seriously think about it and what might have resulted in an F. He is devastated because he really believes he was doing nothing different from others, finished all the work, cleaned his materials, etc.

Except that wasn't true. The teacher did tell them to stop burping and he did it anyway. He didn't complete all of the lab steps and didn't clean up his materials because he had to sit out the last five minutes. Even if she didn't say anything to him at the time about saying he would smack the kid (or if he didn't remember), he remembers that he had to sit out for the last five minutes of the lab and didn't actually finish as a result (and if he doesn't, you may have bigger neurological issues you need to be looking into). You asked your kid for an explanation, and he lied. This is something you need to hold him accountable for.

You also need to acknowledge that his current coping strategies are not working. It's not just about this class, it's about the fact that all of his teachers are reporting to you that he is struggling with managing his symptoms and doing what he needs to do. Just because he's not actively disrupting other students (although any time his teachers need to take away from teaching to address his behavior arguably does disrupt class for the rest of them) doesn't mean that it's not a problem that he's not paying attention and is doing things he's not supposed to (such as playing on his ipad). He needs better strategies or school is going to get worse for him.

OP, I want to add one more thing to this, because as I said earlier, I'm in your shoes as well as having been in your son's. I know this stuff is hard. If you're anything like me, you probably feel like so much of your life is tied up in your child's ADHD, and having them screw up like this, seeing they need even more from you than they're already getting, can be exhausting and defeating. Just once, could we catch a break and have our kids just have a smooth year, or even just a few smooth months, where things are going well and we don't need to be constantly managing them. Not to mention that, when stuff like this happens, it can bring up all kinds of fears about whether our kids are going to learn to manage this on their own, will they be one of the ADHD success stories, or will they be one of the people who bounces around from job to job and relationship to relationship, never truly getting their act together. I really do get the desire to try to sweep this under the rug, to make it be about something other than your kid, because if you can, then this can be a successful quarter with good grades and no issues and you'll finally have caught a break. I know this doesn't give you anything to make it easier, but I realize I've been pretty blunt and I wanted you to know that I also deeply empathize with where you're at. I'd be struggling with it too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait! Can you get at IEP b/c your kid doesn't pay attention and distracts others? As a parent of one goody two shoes (who get seated next to the trouble makers) and one kid who needs constant reinforcement, I'm uber-suprised you can get accommodations b/c your kids won't behave in class. My youngest needs constant reinforcement, but I won't accept that him being a jerk is OK b/c he has "needs". That actually pisses me off. Teach manners!

Yes you can and this is what happens in public schools today. Instead of teaching your child manners and respect it is always the teachers' fault and due to circumstances beyond a child's control. Notice how OP is doing nothing to address the fact that her child has constantly been disruptive and disrespectful n this class.. A few years ago if a parent posted their child was disruptive by telling funny stories during class, most people would say the kid deserved to get a B and should be disciplined by the parent. If it were my kid he would be writing a letter of apology to the teacher for disrupting the class. I would tell my kid it is a great life lesson about how behaving respectfully is important. Instead it is a post about how her poor kid is getting picked on for getting a B in the class. I feel sorry for this kid's lab partners. I feel for this teacher who is trying to teach home ec. Now this PIA parent is going to go to school and suck up the time of an administrator and teacher because her special snowflake who never ever tells a lie or downplays his behavior got a B in the class.

I'm interested to hear about your thoughts on the use of ADHD medication.....

[Anonymous]

OP, maybe your child is disrespectful in this class as you are dismissive about the class itself “not a real class”? Also, your attitude stinks - your kid was disrespectful on multiple occasions as described by you— however you are downplaying his actions as if he is the victim. Both of you need to take responsibility here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, I see the point about being the second to burp. I'll be sure to work with my child so I can ensure he never again engages in Defiant & Disrespectful Burping (which was surely his goal).

I would bet, though, that if Sarah Sweetpea burped immediately after her lab mate did the same, she wouldn't have been told to sit for the last five minutes and lost 20% of the grade. This is a good lesson for my kid, though, in that he is annoying and therefore will be punished more aggressively.

This is perhaps the most important lesson you will ever teach him. If he uses up all of his benefit of the doubt. If he alienates everyone around him. If he continues to make excuses and lie for his actions.....THEN, he will be punished more severely. That's true in middle school, high school, college and definitely in the work force.

[Anonymous]

This is still going on?

Why do we all have all this detail about this one little incident.

OP - respect your kid and back away!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait! Can you get at IEP b/c your kid doesn't pay attention and distracts others? As a parent of one goody two shoes (who get seated next to the trouble makers) and one kid who needs constant reinforcement, I'm uber-suprised you can get accommodations b/c your kids won't behave in class. My youngest needs constant reinforcement, but I won't accept that him being a jerk is OK b/c he has "needs". That actually pisses me off. Teach manners!

Yes you can and this is what happens in public schools today. Instead of teaching your child manners and respect it is always the teachers' fault and due to circumstances beyond a child's control. Notice how OP is doing nothing to address the fact that her child has constantly been disruptive and disrespectful n this class.. A few years ago if a parent posted their child was disruptive by telling funny stories during class, most people would say the kid deserved to get a B and should be disciplined by the parent. If it were my kid he would be writing a letter of apology to the teacher for disrupting the class. I would tell my kid it is a great life lesson about how behaving respectfully is important. Instead it is a post about how her poor kid is getting picked on for getting a B in the class. I feel sorry for this kid's lab partners. I feel for this teacher who is trying to teach home ec. Now this PIA parent is going to go to school and suck up the time of an administrator and teacher because her special snowflake who never ever tells a lie or downplays his behavior got a B in the class.

I'm interested to hear about your thoughts on the use of ADHD medication.....

I have taught at both affluent and high poverty schools. Way too many students at affluent schools are diagnosed with ADHD and are medicated. Any C or even B- student at an affluent school where parents are highly educated must have some diagnosable disability because C students no longer exist. Not nearly enough students at low income schools are diagnosed with ADHD and not many are medicated. If a middle school boy at a high poverty and high minority school would have threatened to smack another student who was holding a knife if they didn't cut a cake correctly, the student might have gotten in serious trouble. The other student might have had to threaten him back to save his reputation, or the disruptive student would have been accused of threatening a student and with potential weapon involved. Either way it could have completely blown up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Talk to the principal.

Sometimes teachers can be vindictive. "Behavior" is marking him down on stuff she doesn't like not objectively what he's supposed to be learning.

Set a time with the principal. Keep your comments reflective of the behaviors of the teacher--don't get personal or angry. Stick to the facts.

Ask the principal how he/she will resolve this and a time you can expect a follow up. If the principal jerks you around ask that your kid have a different teacher.

It will help if your kid has a 504 or iep, but if not time to get one. The teacher sounds like she is discriminating.

The problem with this is that OP doesn't have facts. She wasn't in the class all quarter. She is relying on her son's version of the facts, when he may or may not be a reliable narrator. Of course he's going to tell the version of the story that reflects best on him. I'm sure there's more to this story than what OP's son has presented to her. I'm not absolving the teacher--just saying that OP can't know the facts since she wasn't there.

No she wasn't, however if a teacher is going to give an F due to behavior there better be evidence to back it up not just that this kid is annoying.

Plus, he needs to be judged on the work he actually did. This teacher is being arbitrary.

+1. Come on, we all know that the teacher gave him an F because she didn't like him, not based on the work. And she did not like him because of behavior, which was under his control and is his fault. While I think students need to learn the skill of having superiors like them because it impacts every aspect of grown-up life, I find that teachers -- especially female teachers in Middle School --do not understand tween boys well. And I have girls too (as well as a son). One MS teacher told me the key to controlling a class is to keep the 3 most disruptive boys in check. I do not disagree, but the natural tendency for boys to be rowdier and always trying to make their friends laugh is normal. And too many MS teachers penalize boy's grades or academic achievements\recommendations because of this. Put them in detention - absolutely! But do not take out on their grade. Be professional and keep it separate. The dynamic is over by HS. Boys outgrow it by then or at least better have the ability to control it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have an 11yr old 6th grader, first year of middle school. First quarter included a FACS class (formerly known as Home Ec, or at least it was for me). Early in the year it was clear he and his teacher were not clicking (he pretty quickly believed she hated him). He has ADHD and can definitely be annoying (drums fingers on things, taps or clicks his pen, fidgets in his seat) and was overly chatty the first week or so with friends he hadn't seen all year. By week two she was keeping him after class and asking him how he can pay better attention in class and threatened him with detention for talking with classmates (equally talkative classmates were not threatened with detention). At my recommendation he ended up talking to the guidance counselor about how he could better communicate with the teacher and improve the situation.

A week or so later was teacher conferences and we met with her. She was VERY effusive about how she would NEVER want a student to feel singled out and that everything is just fine and they're good now. All was not well; she continued to chastise him regularly and appeared to be downgrading him on any assignment that didn't require objective grading. Written tests with clear correct/incorrect answers? A. Labs, presentations? Anywhere from B- to D+. After the final test of the year, he had an A- based on test scores, which pulled up the grades she was giving him on everything else.

Final day of class (it ends at the end the quarter), she has a surprise cooking lab. When final grades are posted for the quarter, he gets an F on the lab. The notation says "lab behavior". I grill my kid extensively. He is baffled. He is hurt. He says he was telling funny stories with his group during lab but he wasn't doing anything "wrong". (He has plenty of experience reflecting upon and admitting to poor behavior). I ask him if she asked him to stop. No. I asked him if he was disruptive. No. I asked him if he completed the lab steps and did the work. Yes. I ask him to seriously think about it and what might have resulted in an F. He is devastated because he really believes he was doing nothing different from others, finished all the work, cleaned his materials, etc.

Why does this feel like a big deal to him? He has As in every other class and was SO proud of himself. He has worked really hard and is hugely disappointed that he won't be on the A honor roll because of the final F in this class. It brought his grade down just enough. And it feels so...intentional.

How do I handle this? So far I'm telling him that he can have a conversation with the teacher and ask her to help him understand why. He keeps hoping she will have a change of heart and change the grade. I don't want to wade into this because it feels too helicopter-y over a pretty meaningless grade in a class that doesn't "matter" (apologies to all FACS teachers out there). But I also don't want to say nothing to or about a teacher that has seemingly been arbitrary and punishing an unliked kid by docking grades.

Okay, that was LONG, but advice welcome!

He was doing something wrong.

He was telling funny stories instead of engaging in the appropriate class work.

Did you point that out to him?

[Anonymous]

I got an F (for my final grade in HomeEc) in 8th grade. While my parents were horrified and ashamed, I managed to become moderately successful. I managed to go to college and get a BS and then to graduate school. I also managed to find a husband, granted he does, largely, all the cooking. Yes, my parents still bring it up. No, it really had zero affect on me academically.

Let it go, OP. No one will ever care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Okay, I see the point about being the second to burp. I'll be sure to work with my child so I can ensure he never again engages in Defiant & Disrespectful Burping (which was surely his goal).

I would bet, though, that if Sarah Sweetpea burped immediately after her lab mate did the same, she wouldn't have been told to sit for the last five minutes and lost 20% of the grade. This is a good lesson for my kid, though, in that he is annoying and therefore will be punished more aggressively.

Had Sarah Sweetpea been interrupting her lab group and surrounding lab groups with "funny stories" earlier in the same period? Had she shown herself unable to learn from milder consequences?

If so, then you've got an argument.

You are incredibly lucky that your child is learning this lesson now, while the grade doesn't count for squat. Quarter grades don't even go on the Middle School transcript, and the Middle School transcript doesn't go on to High School, so your kid has chance to learn with zero impact on his life. Or course, what he's learning is that the rules don't apply to him because mommy will helicopter, but he could be learning to respect teachers, which will carry over to respecting employers and long term success in life.

[Anonymous]

I am with you OP-- I am tired of letting their personal feelings get in the way.

I am not a teacher but have been a leader in various kids' activities for many years and even had jobs in my 20s where I supervised young teens. Yes!!! It is easy to like Sarah Sweetpea. It is harder to like the jerk. And you don't even need to like the jerk but is it really hard to be fair and have a little tolerance in something that is supposed to be fun?!?!

I am very curious if the answers would have been the same if the OP said "teacher does not like my kid because he is in a wheelchair so the class constantly has to be rearranged around his disability."

I have one kid that is ADHD and she has had teachers that don't like her-- I have let her face most of the consequences on her own-- except when it was truly unfair or affected her grade.

I have one kid that is suppppper well-behaved (over compensating??) and it was 8th grade before she had a teacher that did not like her -- and was unfair to her. It was her gym teacher (what is with these teachers that teach the joke classes???) My daughter could not do anything right by this lady and my daughter is very athletic. I let her handle it mostly (except when it came to a grading unfairness) and then we let it go-- my daughter was off to HS.... only the teacher also went over to the HS the next year. UGH!!! We made it until the end of first quarter and then I had had enough and reported the teacher. At first I got the "party line" and then a little investigating confirmed my daughter's version. Teacher did not like getting called out on her behavior (nobody does) but the problem is now rectified.

So-- OP, tween boys burp. Kids with ADHD don't always "get it" when it is time to stop-- I am sure you see the same at home. Work on it at home. Your kid probably still needs more self re-direction. I have helped my kid develop "SELF" incentives to get through a tough situation.

A small punishment would have been fine-- make him come after school to help finish cleaning up the classroom but docking the grade was unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am with you OP-- I am tired of letting their personal feelings get in the way.

I am not a teacher but have been a leader in various kids' activities for many years and even had jobs in my 20s where I supervised young teens. Yes!!! It is easy to like Sarah Sweetpea. It is harder to like the jerk. And you don't even need to like the jerk but is it really hard to be fair and have a little tolerance in something that is supposed to be fun?!?!

I am very curious if the answers would have been the same if the OP said "teacher does not like my kid because he is in a wheelchair so the class constantly has to be rearranged around his disability."

I have one kid that is ADHD and she has had teachers that don't like her-- I have let her face most of the consequences on her own-- except when it was truly unfair or affected her grade.

I have one kid that is suppppper well-behaved (over compensating??) and it was 8th grade before she had a teacher that did not like her -- and was unfair to her. It was her gym teacher (what is with these teachers that teach the joke classes???) My daughter could not do anything right by this lady and my daughter is very athletic. I let her handle it mostly (except when it came to a grading unfairness) and then we let it go-- my daughter was off to HS.... only the teacher also went over to the HS the next year. UGH!!! We made it until the end of first quarter and then I had had enough and reported the teacher. At first I got the "party line" and then a little investigating confirmed my daughter's version. Teacher did not like getting called out on her behavior (nobody does) but the problem is now rectified.

So-- OP, tween boys burp. Kids with ADHD don't always "get it" when it is time to stop-- I am sure you see the same at home. Work on it at home. Your kid probably still needs more self re-direction. I have helped my kid develop "SELF" incentives to get through a tough situation.

+1

A small punishment would have been fine-- make him come after school to help finish cleaning up the classroom but docking the grade was unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am with you OP-- I am tired of letting their personal feelings get in the way.

I am not a teacher but have been a leader in various kids' activities for many years and even had jobs in my 20s where I supervised young teens. Yes!!! It is easy to like Sarah Sweetpea. It is harder to like the jerk. And you don't even need to like the jerk but is it really hard to be fair and have a little tolerance in something that is supposed to be fun?!?!

I am very curious if the answers would have been the same if the OP said "teacher does not like my kid because he is in a wheelchair so the class constantly has to be rearranged around his disability."

I have one kid that is ADHD and she has had teachers that don't like her-- I have let her face most of the consequences on her own-- except when it was truly unfair or affected her grade.

I have one kid that is suppppper well-behaved (over compensating??) and it was 8th grade before she had a teacher that did not like her -- and was unfair to her. It was her gym teacher (what is with these teachers that teach the joke classes???) My daughter could not do anything right by this lady and my daughter is very athletic. I let her handle it mostly (except when it came to a grading unfairness) and then we let it go-- my daughter was off to HS.... only the teacher also went over to the HS the next year. UGH!!! We made it until the end of first quarter and then I had had enough and reported the teacher. At first I got the "party line" and then a little investigating confirmed my daughter's version. Teacher did not like getting called out on her behavior (nobody does) but the problem is now rectified.

So-- OP, tween boys burp. Kids with ADHD don't always "get it" when it is time to stop-- I am sure you see the same at home. Work on it at home. Your kid probably still needs more self re-direction. I have helped my kid develop "SELF" incentives to get through a tough situation.

A small punishment would have been fine-- make him come after school to help finish cleaning up the classroom but docking the grade was unfair.

It's a home ec class. Part of the expectation is that kid learn how to behave in a kitchen.

I have a kid whose disability impacts the rate at which they learn math. I would never expect that the math teacher leave math out of the grading algorithm. I know that kids whose math abilities aren't impacted by their disability will out perform my kid.

This kid was in cooking class. Learning how to use knives appropriately (which means not threatening people while using them), is part of cooking class. Learning how to focus on the directions is part of that. Are those things harder for some kids than others? Yes. But you still don't get an A if you don't do it right, just like my kid would probably not get an A because measuring is really hard for him.