Asian-American Groups Accuse Brown, Dartmouth, and Yale of Bias in Admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To base admissions on race is - racist. This is what holds the U of Maryland back. They fall for the liberal bs and diversify thus alumni don't do as well. Thus less publicity and less alumni donations.

Spot on - note that the top three publics are race blind - cal, uclA, & Michigan are all race blind

You're talking about a bunch of public schools.

The Ivies are private and given the clamoring to get into them, I hardly think they are being "held back" by holistic admissions.

[Anonymous]

This college thread gets a lot of pages devoted to this. Every few days in fact. There are clearly a few posters who feel that Asian Americans are not getting a fair shake. Another common thread is that URMs are somehow at fault.

Fact of the matter African Americans are a very small percentage of students at the top 25 colleges. Typically 5-7 percent. Hispanics are typically even less. Asian Americans are typically significantly more. They are over-represented in comparison to their percentage in the US population. So, the argument being made in these legal challenges is that they want more slots based on grades and test scores.

But, colleges don't admit based on this. Nor will they. Not even many state schools that are subject to more limited criteria.

Not all but many Asian Americans specialize in the same fields. They play certain instruments. Tend to not play on team sports in high school. SOME NOT ALL. But, they tend to look a lot like the next candidate. I worked at a school where many of the Asian students were quite studious and overall good kids, but were not particularly well-rounded. Again, some not all. Also, many do not focus on the fact that colleges look for unique and heart-felt essays. I have read that many essays focus on achievement rather than who the kid is and what motivates them.

Finally, test scores are not everything. If you practice them and are tutored, you can score higher than those who do not, in many cases, because of a lack of opportunity. They (test scores) are correlated to income but are not a very strong predictor of ultimate college success. Moreover, if you score past a certain point, you demonstrate a level that most colleges find acceptable. So, let's say that number is 670 or 700 on SAT. Getting an 800 does not gain you that much if the lower scoring applicant can be successful at a college.

On this website, I read a lot about the presumption that all URMs have weaker credentials. In this area of the country, I know a lot of these kids and many have very strong credentials.

Finally, most people are not getting into highly selective schools. I run into kids every year who only apply to these schools and then complain when they don't get in. Applying to 10 schools with 5-12 percent acceptance rate is not a sound strategy. Most kids of all races will be rejected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll be even more blunt

This isn't Korea or China or India

The score on your test isn't what matters most here

Harvard could take all perfect SAT scores if they wanted.... but they don't

HOLISTIC Admissions

Holistic admissions is just a palatable way to justify discrimination.

I disagree. I think holistic does look at those that excelled academically, but it also looks at the kids that think outside the box, the entrepreneurs who started a business in high school, the kids that overcame obstacles to get to where they are. Those kids might not have perfect scores, but they are sure to be successful and to add richness of ideas and experiences in the campus. Who wants a campus with all similar kids? Don't you want diversity of thought and experiences for a richer environment?

[Anonymous]

This says it all:

"In 2013, University of Miami sociology professor Frank L. Samson released a study examining white adult Californians' views on merit-based admissions policies at public universities...
Samson found that white Californians had inconsistent views on how much weight should be given to test scores when evaluating applicants. White Californians were much more likely to emphasize GPA when they perceived black people as their competition. However, when they compared themselves to Asian applicants and were told that Asian students are overrepresented on college campuses, white Californians deemphasized the importance of GPA.

Indeed, the degree to which white people emphasized merit for college admissions changed depending on the racial minority group, and whether they believed test scores alone will still give them an upper hand against a particular racial minority.
...
As a result, the study suggests that the emphasis on merit has less to do with people of color's abilities and more to do with how white people strategically manage threats to their position of power from non-white groups."

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/22/11704756/affirmative-action-merit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ there are literally hundreds of these accepts/rejects posts on CC. not sure if hand-picking 3 examples to fit your point proves anything.

Take it any way you want, twist and distort any way you want. I could care less. Bottom line is that the holistic method works and affords an opportunity to those who would never get a shot IF used properly.

You can victimize all you want but the bottom line is that there are just so many seats, no one race is getting all of them, and I applaud the holistic approach. Otherwise the Asian student would not have been accepted over other Asians with PERFECT scores of which there are many.

Finished.

I hope the Asians now attending Ivies get involved with activities. I went to an Ivy with lots of Asians but most contributed very little to the campus atmosphere. All most did was study. A few were better assimilated and actually got involved with things, but most might as well have taken distance-learning classes.

And how many Asians did you actually hang out with? I went to an Ivy in a very elite program where three quarter were Asians. No one was involved in a lousy fraternity where people drank too much, but we did all sorts of activities ranging from business associations to women's groups to acapella groups. Now we are all top finance/law/start up/hedge fund professionals. Do we threaten you?

You bored me then, and it sounds like you're just as boring now. Please don't try to ruin our schools - and, yes, our ancestors founded them, not yours - any more than you have already. I'm sure there are schools in China where you can learn to code, hack websites, and short mortgage bonds.

Not very nice a all, and uncalled for.
Having said that, the Asians have no more "right" to get into the Ivies than anyone else.
They have Cal. Berkeley, U.Va. etc.
And it troubles me a bit they're fighting for an even higher rate of over-representation than they already have.
Their gains of course must come at the expense of URMs and athletes, and legacies (which are lawful so far as I know).

UVa? Nice try.

? could you explain what you mean? Half of TJ's graduating class goes to UVA - like a couple of hundred kids a year. Most of these are Asian. So not sure what you mean.

Asians aim higher.

[Anonymous]

I'm confused. The Supreme Court has sanctioned affirmative active, albeit a ith strict scrutiny. The Court enthusiastically wants holistic reviews. States retain the right to ban the practice -- MI and CA did, via ballot initiative and ferocious pushback.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ there are literally hundreds of these accepts/rejects posts on CC. not sure if hand-picking 3 examples to fit your point proves anything.

Take it any way you want, twist and distort any way you want. I could care less. Bottom line is that the holistic method works and affords an opportunity to those who would never get a shot IF used properly.

You can victimize all you want but the bottom line is that there are just so many seats, no one race is getting all of them, and I applaud the holistic approach. Otherwise the Asian student would not have been accepted over other Asians with PERFECT scores of which there are many.

Finished.

I hope the Asians now attending Ivies get involved with activities. I went to an Ivy with lots of Asians but most contributed very little to the campus atmosphere. All most did was study. A few were better assimilated and actually got involved with things, but most might as well have taken distance-learning classes.

And how many Asians did you actually hang out with? I went to an Ivy in a very elite program where three quarter were Asians. No one was involved in a lousy fraternity where people drank too much, but we did all sorts of activities ranging from business associations to women's groups to acapella groups. Now we are all top finance/law/start up/hedge fund professionals. Do we threaten you?

You bored me then, and it sounds like you're just as boring now. Please don't try to ruin our schools - and, yes, our ancestors founded them, not yours - any more than you have already. I'm sure there are schools in China where you can learn to code, hack websites, and short mortgage bonds.

Not very nice a all, and uncalled for.
Having said that, the Asians have no more "right" to get into the Ivies than anyone else.
They have Cal. Berkeley, U.Va. etc.
And it troubles me a bit they're fighting for an even higher rate of over-representation than they already have.
Their gains of course must come at the expense of URMs and athletes, and legacies (which are lawful so far as I know).

UVa? Nice try.

? could you explain what you mean? Half of TJ's graduating class goes to UVA - like a couple of hundred kids a year. Most of these are Asian. So not sure what you mean.

Asians aim higher.

probably most of them from TJ chose it for the in-state tuition. Many reasons why someone would choose a certain college over another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me get this straight:

- some white people complain that there are too many Asian Americans in universities
- some white people complain that African Americans only get into elite universities because of affirmative action
- some white people complain that Hispanics are taking their jobs

Is there any group of people that white people don't complain about taking from them?

It's the Asian Americans filing the complaint correct? Not the white, black or Hispanic groups. It's the Asian Americans complaint that this thread is focused.

Yes, but there are some posters here, and I'm sure some who don't post on here, who complain about too many Asian Americans and their over representation in universities and magnet programs. I'm sure not all of them are white, but I bet some, if not a lot, are.

Let me get this straight. Even though this lawsuit or this thread isn't about white people, you decided to make it an indicted of white people. Who has the racism problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me get this straight:

- some white people complain that there are too many Asian Americans in universities
- some white people complain that African Americans only get into elite universities because of affirmative action
- some white people complain that Hispanics are taking their jobs

Is there any group of people that white people don't complain about taking from them?

It's the Asian Americans filing the complaint correct? Not the white, black or Hispanic groups. It's the Asian Americans complaint that this thread is focused.

Yes, but there are some posters here, and I'm sure some who don't post on here, who complain about too many Asian Americans and their over representation in universities and magnet programs. I'm sure not all of them are white, but I bet some, if not a lot, are.

Let me get this straight. Even though this lawsuit or this thread isn't about white people, you decided to make it an indicted of white people. Who has the racism problem?

To be fair, I did state "some" white people, not all.

But, when this type of discussion happens on here, inevitably, some people turn it into Asian American bashing... "they are like robots, they have nothing else to contribute, they are not creative, etc..". Just turning the mirror around, that's all. I know, it's hard a hard pill to swallow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll be even more blunt

This isn't Korea or China or India

The score on your test isn't what matters most here

Harvard could take all perfect SAT scores if they wanted.... but they don't

HOLISTIC Admissions

Holistic admissions is just a palatable way to justify discrimination.

They're certainly not discriminating against African-Americans or Hispanic-Americans. That's what the SAT does.

And amazingly, so does the ACT. So do the LSAT, GMAT and GRE. Even the dang NNAT discriminates against African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans! That's one big conspiracy!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me get this straight:

- some white people complain that there are too many Asian Americans in universities
- some white people complain that African Americans only get into elite universities because of affirmative action
- some white people complain that Hispanics are taking their jobs

Is there any group of people that white people don't complain about taking from them?

It's the Asian Americans filing the complaint correct? Not the white, black or Hispanic groups. It's the Asian Americans complaint that this thread is focused.

Yes, but there are some posters here, and I'm sure some who don't post on here, who complain about too many Asian Americans and their over representation in universities and magnet programs. I'm sure not all of them are white, but I bet some, if not a lot, are.

Let me get this straight. Even though this lawsuit or this thread isn't about white people, you decided to make it an indicted of white people. Who has the racism problem?

Well, white people are the only ones complaining about not getting ahead due to their color. African Americans are known for not doing that. Ever. At all. Just white people.

[Anonymous]

I posted earlier and I wasn't suggesting that Asians were not creative, etc. My point is that they SOMETIMES have the same interests, same majors, etc. Differentiation is key for all races.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posted earlier and I wasn't suggesting that Asians were not creative, etc. My point is that they SOMETIMES have the same interests, same majors, etc. Differentiation is key for all races.

This. I just went to a middle school band and string concert. 90% of the violin players are Asian. Less than 50% of the other strings players are Asian. 10% of the band students are Asian (and they all play the flute). Why strings vs band (and especially violin)? And why only the flute? No idea. To me, playing a musical instrument is important, but I let my kids choose which one. I've never seen that a violin has more intrinsic value than a cello or a clarinet. But for some reason that is how the Asian kids in DC's school tracks. And since this school feeds TJ, believe that 80% of the Asian kids are developing a deep passion for STEM. Also, fine, but colleges need literature majors too. I have no problem with colleges having lots of qualified Asian students. I do have a problem if 80% of the student body consists of violin playing STEM students-- especially if those students have no real passion for STEM or the violin. Asian cultures often value homogeny. American colleges place an emphasis on diverse backgrounds and experiences. An Asian parent who wants to send a kid to Yale might do well to let their child pursue genuine interests, especially if they are unique and different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This says it all:

"In 2013, University of Miami sociology professor Frank L. Samson released a study examining white adult Californians' views on merit-based admissions policies at public universities...
Samson found that white Californians had inconsistent views on how much weight should be given to test scores when evaluating applicants. White Californians were much more likely to emphasize GPA when they perceived black people as their competition. However, when they compared themselves to Asian applicants and were told that Asian students are overrepresented on college campuses, white Californians deemphasized the importance of GPA.

Indeed, the degree to which white people emphasized merit for college admissions changed depending on the racial minority group, and whether they believed test scores alone will still give them an upper hand against a particular racial minority.
...
As a result, the study suggests that the emphasis on merit has less to do with people of color's abilities and more to do with how white people strategically manage threats to their position of power from non-white groups."

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/22/11704756/affirmative-action-merit

Awesome stuff. White people must be put on notice. We are watching you guys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted earlier and I wasn't suggesting that Asians were not creative, etc. My point is that they SOMETIMES have the same interests, same majors, etc. Differentiation is key for all races.

This. I just went to a middle school band and string concert. 90% of the violin players are Asian. Less than 50% of the other strings players are Asian. 10% of the band students are Asian (and they all play the flute). Why strings vs band (and especially violin)? And why only the flute? No idea. To me, playing a musical instrument is important, but I let my kids choose which one. I've never seen that a violin has more intrinsic value than a cello or a clarinet. But for some reason that is how the Asian kids in DC's school tracks. And since this school feeds TJ, believe that 80% of the Asian kids are developing a deep passion for STEM. Also, fine, but colleges need literature majors too. I have no problem with colleges having lots of qualified Asian students. I do have a problem if 80% of the student body consists of violin playing STEM students-- especially if those students have no real passion for STEM or the violin. Asian cultures often value homogeny. American colleges place an emphasis on diverse backgrounds and experiences. An Asian parent who wants to send a kid to Yale might do well to let their child pursue genuine interests, especially if they are unique and different.

Agree!