Feminism, femininity, and marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

True, but we live in our society, so we have to deal with its rules. They are there, whether we like it or not. And face it: money gives you freedom, and freedom means choice, which can often help with happiness.

So says the complacent member of the bourgeoisie. Revolution, resistance are not beyond us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a lot of whining. Waaah we men want sexy mommies to take care of us and make us feel important. We want the best jobs with the most money. We want freedom from equally sharing obligations and family responsibilities. We're very threatened that women want equal opportunities and pay, and to control their own bodies and to have choices in their lives.

Sure go ahead. Except the "men" you accuse of whining are actually women. So your insults just show you are not capable of listening to what is being said and are intransigent in your ways. Can you not exchange views without stopping so low?

If it is women saying they don't want equal rights and equal pay, and women saying they want to shoulder all the family obligations and responsibilities and have no choices or control over their own bodies and lives, then these are fools and mouthpieces of the patriarchy. There are always weak people who identify with and suck up to the power and parrot whatever big daddy says.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my issues with this whole discussion is that it relies on a Leave it to Beaver fantasy of family life that few attained in the past, certainly not my AA ancestors (all married before having children, thank you) or my Irish immigrant great-grandmother. Those ladies worked from necessity, often when prejudice kept their men from being gainfully employed. They raised sons and daughters who valued higher education and careers for women and men alike. My grandfather once widowed kept his home on his own because he didn't want his eight daughters interrupting their studies and jobs to cook and clean for him. My father is a bigger feminist than my mother because his mother had to give up her factory job when men came home from the war and she never made as much afterwards.

Yep. I had a Gma who supposedly dabbled in prostitution because her husband couldn't support the family on his own. This is what traditionalists want us to return to.

WOW! Way to oversimplify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^and I hate my S5.

What's an S5?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems the two problems the OP has with feminism are:

1) men don't want to marry women because feminism has made them all manly and bitchy and men get nothing out of marriage

2) despite feminists insisting it wants gentle and kind men, biologically women actually want men who are cocky and treat them like shit

Clearly the only answer is to be the biggest a-hole you can be and then just sit back and NOT get married while legions of 25 year olds throw themselves at you because you treat them all horribly. Why are you complaining? If the conclusions you've drawn are accurate, it seems like feminism should be awesome for men.

Of course it is awesome foe men. Just look at the "I want a provider thread". The woman brings home the bacon and fries it up. If she complains about this there is a chorus of shrill women screaming at her to take care of her own damn self. The man comes out Snelling like roses and she's painted a bitch. All driven by women. Bravo ladies! Bravo.

The lesson is that the man should take care of the house and children and other non financial family obligations, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems the two problems the OP has with feminism are:

1) men don't want to marry women because feminism has made them all manly and bitchy and men get nothing out of marriage

2) despite feminists insisting it wants gentle and kind men, biologically women actually want men who are cocky and treat them like shit

Clearly the only answer is to be the biggest a-hole you can be and then just sit back and NOT get married while legions of 25 year olds throw themselves at you because you treat them all horribly. Why are you complaining? If the conclusions you've drawn are accurate, it seems like feminism should be awesome for men.

The problem is that, in practice, it's not doing anyone much good. Traditionally feminine gender roles are looked down upon by feminists and, as a result, families are stressed, women aren't happy, and men are checking out.

I'm a feminist. No one in my family wants to take on the scut work, so we share it, both inside and outside the home. I am happy and my man is not checking out, he's stepping up to share responsibilities for raising our children and earning the money to support them. Only less evolved men are checking out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a lot of whining. Waaah we men want sexy mommies to take care of us and make us feel important. We want the best jobs with the most money. We want freedom from equally sharing obligations and family responsibilities. We're very threatened that women want equal opportunities and pay, and to control their own bodies and to have choices in their lives.

Sure go ahead. Except the "men" you accuse of whining are actually women. So your insults just show you are not capable of listening to what is being said and are intransigent in your ways. Can you not exchange views without stopping so low?

If it is women saying they don't want equal rights and equal pay, and women saying they want to shoulder all the family obligations and responsibilities and have no choices or control over their own bodies and lives, then these are fools and mouthpieces of the patriarchy. There are always weak people who identify with and suck up to the power and parrot whatever big daddy says.

More insults. Noone said that they did not want equal rights, equal pay, or to shoulder all family obligations or to not have control over their bodies and lives. All that has been achieved. What people are saying is that feminism has become too extreme and some aspects have create dysfunction in everyday family lives. Women are being criticized for wanting to be women, or to even make their own choices such as SAHM. Either way they can't win.

You are the one who sounds weak and shrill frankly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

Power comes from earning money. Just ask my deceased mother, who, although she did not have time stress like I do, was miserable because her husband had the ultimate decisionmaking power in the house. No thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

True, but we live in our society, so we have to deal with its rules. They are there, whether we like it or not. And face it: money gives you freedom, and freedom means choice, which can often help with happiness.

The same holds true with the qualities we encourage our boys to embrace. Being strong, fast, loud, and aggressive gives men more choices - choices in women, choices in money making opportunities - even while those qualities can cause problems for society generally.

This is where your logic fails. I encourage my girl AND my boy to be strong, fast and assertive when appropriate, not aggressive. Loud and aggressive are not desirable habits, not in a child, not in a teenager, not in a partner, and not in the workplace. Unless you are a WWE wrestler, of course.

I've been pretty well rewarded for being aggressive in my job, which does not involve wrestling. Think sales, litigation....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

True, but we live in our society, so we have to deal with its rules. They are there, whether we like it or not. And face it: money gives you freedom, and freedom means choice, which can often help with happiness.

So says the complacent member of the bourgeoisie. Revolution, resistance are not beyond us.

Go ahead and revolt and resist. I'll use my money to send my kids to any college they want, debt free, and to retire early. Carry on with your fight as I laugh all the way to the bank.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

Power comes from earning money. Just ask my deceased mother, who, although she did not have time stress like I do, was miserable because her husband had the ultimate decisionmaking power in the house. No thanks.

And happiness comes from power?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a lot of whining. Waaah we men want sexy mommies to take care of us and make us feel important. We want the best jobs with the most money. We want freedom from equally sharing obligations and family responsibilities. We're very threatened that women want equal opportunities and pay, and to control their own bodies and to have choices in their lives.

Sure go ahead. Except the "men" you accuse of whining are actually women. So your insults just show you are not capable of listening to what is being said and are intransigent in your ways. Can you not exchange views without stopping so low?

If it is women saying they don't want equal rights and equal pay, and women saying they want to shoulder all the family obligations and responsibilities and have no choices or control over their own bodies and lives, then these are fools and mouthpieces of the patriarchy. There are always weak people who identify with and suck up to the power and parrot whatever big daddy says.

More insults. Noone said that they did not want equal rights, equal pay, or to shoulder all family obligations or to not have control over their bodies and lives. All that has been achieved. What people are saying is that feminism has become too extreme and some aspects have create dysfunction in everyday family lives. Women are being criticized for wanting to be women, or to even make their own choices such as SAHM. Either way they can't win.

You are the one who sounds weak and shrill frankly.

Nowhere in this thread are women being criticized for wanting to be women. That is a fabrication that keeps being repeated. I have, however, seen many, many postings from avowed feminists who say they very much support women (and men) who want to SAH. In fact, we applaud them for successfully having the option to choose whether to SAH or not! That is a huge victory for gender equality.

I have yet to see any postings that detail exactly how "feminism" is creating dysfunction in everyday family lives. There are supposedly a lot of anti-feminist, traditional women in this thread who claim that their everyday lives have been made dysfunctional by feminism, and yet, none of these women have actually provided details about what that looks like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

Power comes from earning money. Just ask my deceased mother, who, although she did not have time stress like I do, was miserable because her husband had the ultimate decisionmaking power in the house. No thanks.

And happiness comes from power?

Happiness comes from having choices- whether to clean your own house or outsource, whether to leave your husband - and those choices come from having the power to support yourself financially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a lot of whining. Waaah we men want sexy mommies to take care of us and make us feel important. We want the best jobs with the most money. We want freedom from equally sharing obligations and family responsibilities. We're very threatened that women want equal opportunities and pay, and to control their own bodies and to have choices in their lives.

Sure go ahead. Except the "men" you accuse of whining are actually women. So your insults just show you are not capable of listening to what is being said and are intransigent in your ways. Can you not exchange views without stopping so low?

If it is women saying they don't want equal rights and equal pay, and women saying they want to shoulder all the family obligations and responsibilities and have no choices or control over their own bodies and lives, then these are fools and mouthpieces of the patriarchy. There are always weak people who identify with and suck up to the power and parrot whatever big daddy says.

More insults. Noone said that they did not want equal rights, equal pay, or to shoulder all family obligations or to not have control over their bodies and lives. All that has been achieved. What people are saying is that feminism has become too extreme and some aspects have create dysfunction in everyday family lives. Women are being criticized for wanting to be women, or to even make their own choices such as SAHM. Either way they can't win.

You are the one who sounds weak and shrill frankly.

LOL. All that has NOT been achieved. Feminism is about achieving those things, not about criticizing women for wanting to be women or choosing to be SAHMs. You need to step away from the Fox News.

[Anonymous]

After reading this thread (and these boards) I don't think any guy should get married - ever.