Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Usually the public school kids at the Ivies run circles academically around the kids coming from private schools. The only exceptions I recall were for some of the NYC privates like Dalton and Horace Mann, but certainly not the DC-area privates.

I went to an Ivy too, and I had the exact opposite impression. Pretty much everyone was pretty smart. But most of my friends from fancy private schools seemed generally much smarter, better able to see the big picture, and more adept at doing well in college. The public school students were smart, but they were often so disorganized they could not apply their smarts effectively. Surely there were a few brilliant people from both public and private schools, who were smarter than the rest of us, but they were the small minority.

I'm sure a lot of this depends on each person's particular circle of friends. My opinion is based on the group of people I knew; yours is based on whoever you knew. Neither of us knew the GPAs and general attitudes of enough people at our respective college to make any credible conclusions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You may well be right. And/or the counselors may be taking your finances into account and not setting your child up for disappointment if he got into, say, Yale and you couldn't afford to send him.

Also, I learned the hard way during my own college apps in the 90s that many private college are NOT need-blind.

Wrong. A school like Yale is far more likely to be affordable to a family that qualifies for financial aid than another private or even public university. Schools with large endowments (HYP, Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc.) have FA programs to provide not only full rides, but also grants rather than loans. The most elite private universities and colleges are indeed need blind, but with the exception of the like mentioned above, they will offer FA with lots of loans, rather than outright grants.

Unfortunately, without good college counseling, most people like you are led to believe that the most elite universities and colleges are "too expensive" to even be considered worth applying to; the truth cannot be farther from this misconception. If anything, the brightest and poorest students are best off at these schools, financially speaking, because these wealthy schools will cover tuition, room, and board for such students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may well be right. And/or the counselors may be taking your finances into account and not setting your child up for disappointment if he got into, say, Yale and you couldn't afford to send him.

Also, I learned the hard way during my own college apps in the 90s that many private college are NOT need-blind.

Wrong. A school like Yale is far more likely to be affordable to a family that qualifies for financial aid than another private or even public university. Schools with large endowments (HYP, Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc.) have FA programs to provide not only full rides, but also grants rather than loans. The most elite private universities and colleges are indeed need blind, but with the exception of the like mentioned above, they will offer FA with lots of loans, rather than outright grants.

Unfortunately, without good college counseling, most people like you are led to believe that the most elite universities and colleges are "too expensive" to even be considered worth applying to; the truth cannot be farther from this misconception. If anything, the brightest and poorest students are best off at these schools, financially speaking, because these wealthy schools will cover tuition, room, and board for such students.

New poster here, but you are wrong, sorry to say. As someone who has served on an admission committee for an Ivy for a few years, no one is truly need blind. Yes, a lot if universities have huge endowments, but they have to operate off the interest every year and can't touch the principal. In the case of a school like Harvard, 15-20% interest is still a hell of a lot if money. But any ANY (let me repeat that - any and every) honest college recruiter will admit that students who can pay full freight are desirable and they can't take a whole class full of financial aid students. This whole story about need blind is funny, since one of the first questions they ask you on the Common App is whether you will need financial aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Recent Ivy grad here from the DC area. I went to a non-W public school in Montgomery County and was distinctly unimpressed by many students coming from independent schools, both in DC and elsewhere. They were, most often, entirely unremarkable students who had just developed strong study skills through years of private schooling. Friends who went to Andover/St. Pauls-type boarding schools regularly got in with a 3.4-3.6 GPA and good but not stellar SATs and no hook-i.e. they were pumpernickel white or from upper-middle class Jewish families.

Usually the public school kids at the Ivies run circles academically around the kids coming from private schools. The only exceptions I recall were for some of the NYC privates like Dalton and Horace Mann, but certainly not the DC-area privates.

That is a ridiculous, especially ignorant generalization. There are plenty of really smart kids at DC privates. And plenty of spoiled kids at Dalton and H.M.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may well be right. And/or the counselors may be taking your finances into account and not setting your child up for disappointment if he got into, say, Yale and you couldn't afford to send him.

Also, I learned the hard way during my own college apps in the 90s that many private college are NOT need-blind.

Wrong. A school like Yale is far more likely to be affordable to a family that qualifies for financial aid than another private or even public university. Schools with large endowments (HYP, Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc.) have FA programs to provide not only full rides, but also grants rather than loans. The most elite private universities and colleges are indeed need blind, but with the exception of the like mentioned above, they will offer FA with lots of loans, rather than outright grants.

Unfortunately, without good college counseling, most people like you are led to believe that the most elite universities and colleges are "too expensive" to even be considered worth applying to; the truth cannot be farther from this misconception. If anything, the brightest and poorest students are best off at these schools, financially speaking, because these wealthy schools will cover tuition, room, and board for such students.

New poster here, but you are wrong, sorry to say. As someone who has served on an admission committee for an Ivy for a few years, no one is truly need blind. Yes, a lot if universities have huge endowments, but they have to operate off the interest every year and can't touch the principal. In the case of a school like Harvard, 15-20% interest is still a hell of a lot if money. But any ANY (let me repeat that - any and every) honest college recruiter will admit that students who can pay full freight are desirable and they can't take a whole class full of financial aid students. This whole story about need blind is funny, since[b] one of the first questions they ask you on the Common App is whether you will need financial aid.

But I just read an article about this where an Admissions officer said this question is only there to "alert" the FA office that you will be submitting an application and to get ready for it. Any thoughts on that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may well be right. And/or the counselors may be taking your finances into account and not setting your child up for disappointment if he got into, say, Yale and you couldn't afford to send him.

Also, I learned the hard way during my own college apps in the 90s that many private college are NOT need-blind.

Wrong. A school like Yale is far more likely to be affordable to a family that qualifies for financial aid than another private or even public university. Schools with large endowments (HYP, Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc.) have FA programs to provide not only full rides, but also grants rather than loans. The most elite private universities and colleges are indeed need blind, but with the exception of the like mentioned above, they will offer FA with lots of loans, rather than outright grants.

Unfortunately, without good college counseling, most people like you are led to believe that the most elite universities and colleges are "too expensive" to even be considered worth applying to; the truth cannot be farther from this misconception. If anything, the brightest and poorest students are best off at these schools, financially speaking, because these wealthy schools will cover tuition, room, and board for such students.

New poster here, but you are wrong, sorry to say. As someone who has served on an admission committee for an Ivy for a few years, no one is truly need blind. Yes, a lot if universities have huge endowments, but they have to operate off the interest every year and can't touch the principal. In the case of a school like Harvard, 15-20% interest is still a hell of a lot if money. But any ANY (let me repeat that - any and every) honest college recruiter will admit that students who can pay full freight are desirable and they can't take a whole class full of financial aid students. This whole story about need blind is funny, since[b] one of the first questions they ask you on the Common App is whether you will need financial aid.

But I just read an article about this where an Admissions officer said this question is only there to "alert" the FA office that you will be submitting an application and to get ready for it. Any thoughts on that?

There are a few colleges that are TRULY need blind, and I'm guessing that PP did not attend HYP, because they are three of the half dozen schools that are indeed need blind. Most, including the "lesser" Ivies are what we call need aware.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may well be right. And/or the counselors may be taking your finances into account and not setting your child up for disappointment if he got into, say, Yale and you couldn't afford to send him.

Also, I learned the hard way during my own college apps in the 90s that many private college are NOT need-blind.

Wrong. A school like Yale is far more likely to be affordable to a family that qualifies for financial aid than another private or even public university. Schools with large endowments (HYP, Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc.) have FA programs to provide not only full rides, but also grants rather than loans. The most elite private universities and colleges are indeed need blind, but with the exception of the like mentioned above, they will offer FA with lots of loans, rather than outright grants.

Unfortunately, without good college counseling, most people like you are led to believe that the most elite universities and colleges are "too expensive" to even be considered worth applying to; the truth cannot be farther from this misconception. If anything, the brightest and poorest students are best off at these schools, financially speaking, because these wealthy schools will cover tuition, room, and board for such students.

New poster here, but you are wrong, sorry to say. As someone who has served on an admission committee for an Ivy for a few years, no one is truly need blind. Yes, a lot if universities have huge endowments, but they have to operate off the interest every year and can't touch the principal. In the case of a school like Harvard, 15-20% interest is still a hell of a lot if money. But any ANY (let me repeat that - any and every) honest college recruiter will admit that students who can pay full freight are desirable and they can't take a whole class full of financial aid students. This whole story about need blind is funny, since one of the first questions they ask you on the Common App is whether you will need financial aid.

A few years before the Great Recession hit, I recall hearing that one or more of the ivy league schools (Harvard, I believe started it) announced a public goal of providing undergraduate education free for all students in a few years, but rolled it back when the endowments took a huge hit. This would be one way to put the need blind thing largely to rest -- if there was no cost to attend. I suspect having seen what could happen in financial markets, it may be a long time before we hear of such a proposal again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
A few years before the Great Recession hit, I recall hearing that one or more of the ivy league schools (Harvard, I believe started it) announced a public goal of providing undergraduate education free for all students in a few years, but rolled it back when the endowments took a huge hit. This would be one way to put the need blind thing largely to rest -- if there was no cost to attend. I suspect having seen what could happen in financial markets, it may be a long time before we hear of such a proposal again.

That was Larry Summers, and he announced a policy of providing full FA to families with household incomes up to something like $120K or $150K. It wasn't ever free education for everybody, just for families for whom $60K/year would be a real deterrent. I think Harvard still does this.

Of course, your kid has to get into Harvard first. I think Harvard takes about 6% of applicants, and most of the other top ivies also take 6-10% of applicants. So I sometimes chuckle when somebody here says "Harvard would be cheaper, after FA, than UMD/UVA for your kid!" because most kids have very little chance of actually getting into Harvard.

[Anonymous]

To be eligible for many grants, scholarships, etc, you need to apply for financial aid. So most families I know apply whether or not they need the financial aid, because they want to be eligible for those.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A few years before the Great Recession hit, I recall hearing that one or more of the ivy league schools (Harvard, I believe started it) announced a public goal of providing undergraduate education free for all students in a few years, but rolled it back when the endowments took a huge hit. This would be one way to put the need blind thing largely to rest -- if there was no cost to attend. I suspect having seen what could happen in financial markets, it may be a long time before we hear of such a proposal again.

That was Larry Summers, and he announced a policy of providing full FA to families with household incomes up to something like $120K or $150K. It wasn't ever free education for everybody, just for families for whom $60K/year would be a real deterrent. I think Harvard still does this.

Of course, your kid has to get into Harvard first. I think Harvard takes about 6% of applicants, and most of the other top ivies also take 6-10% of applicants. So I sometimes chuckle when somebody here says "Harvard would be cheaper, after FA, than UMD/UVA for your kid!" because most kids have very little chance of actually getting into Harvard.

Harvard still does this. The sad fact of the matter is that high achieving poor students--and not DCUM poor, but pell grant poor--need to be recruited by the most elite schools because not enough apply. There us no danger of HYP jeopardizing endowments because of their need blind policy in thus regard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Usually the public school kids at the Ivies run circles academically around the kids coming from private schools. The only exceptions I recall were for some of the NYC privates like Dalton and Horace Mann, but certainly not the DC-area privates.

I went to an Ivy too, and I had the exact opposite impression. Pretty much everyone was pretty smart. But most of my friends from fancy private schools seemed generally much smarter, better able to see the big picture, and more adept at doing well in college. The public school students were smart, but they were often so disorganized they could not apply their smarts effectively. Surely there were a few brilliant people from both public and private schools, who were smarter than the rest of us, but they were the small minority.

I'm sure a lot of this depends on each person's particular circle of friends. My opinion is based on the group of people I knew; yours is based on whoever you knew. Neither of us knew the GPAs and general attitudes of enough people at our respective college to make any credible conclusions.

Actually, I knew exactly who in the class ended up with honors and/or in Phi Beta Kappa, and the students from private schools were under-represented relative to their total numbers. It wasn't a question of drawing conclusions from a particular circle of friends.

The private school kids did tend to be more "worldly," but otherwise were decidedly less ambitious and driven, and more likely to be legacy admits who had family connections dating back generations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Usually the public school kids at the Ivies run circles academically around the kids coming from private schools. The only exceptions I recall were for some of the NYC privates like Dalton and Horace Mann, but certainly not the DC-area privates.

I went to an Ivy too, and I had the exact opposite impression. Pretty much everyone was pretty smart. But most of my friends from fancy private schools seemed generally much smarter, better able to see the big picture, and more adept at doing well in college. The public school students were smart, but they were often so disorganized they could not apply their smarts effectively. Surely there were a few brilliant people from both public and private schools, who were smarter than the rest of us, but they were the small minority.

I'm sure a lot of this depends on each person's particular circle of friends. My opinion is based on the group of people I knew; yours is based on whoever you knew. Neither of us knew the GPAs and general attitudes of enough people at our respective college to make any credible conclusions.

Actually, I knew exactly who in the class ended up with honors and/or in Phi Beta Kappa, and the students from private schools were under-represented relative to their total numbers. It wasn't a question of drawing conclusions from a particular circle of friends.

The private school kids did tend to be more "worldly," but otherwise were decidedly less ambitious and driven, and more likely to be legacy admits who had family connections dating back generations.

NP here -- Sure, it's in the program at graduation. But you actually cross-checked this with the facebook to see who went to private school? Wow, just wow. (And, BTW, I'm an Ivy grad who went to public school.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Usually the public school kids at the Ivies run circles academically around the kids coming from private schools. The only exceptions I recall were for some of the NYC privates like Dalton and Horace Mann, but certainly not the DC-area privates.

I went to an Ivy too, and I had the exact opposite impression. Pretty much everyone was pretty smart. But most of my friends from fancy private schools seemed generally much smarter, better able to see the big picture, and more adept at doing well in college. The public school students were smart, but they were often so disorganized they could not apply their smarts effectively. Surely there were a few brilliant people from both public and private schools, who were smarter than the rest of us, but they were the small minority.

I'm sure a lot of this depends on each person's particular circle of friends. My opinion is based on the group of people I knew; yours is based on whoever you knew. Neither of us knew the GPAs and general attitudes of enough people at our respective college to make any credible conclusions.

Actually, I knew exactly who in the class ended up with honors and/or in Phi Beta Kappa, and the students from private schools were under-represented relative to their total numbers. It wasn't a question of drawing conclusions from a particular circle of friends.

The private school kids did tend to be more "worldly," but otherwise were decidedly less ambitious and driven, and more likely to be legacy admits who had family connections dating back generations.

NP here -- Sure, it's in the program at graduation. But you actually cross-checked this with the facebook to see who went to private school? Wow, just wow. (And, BTW, I'm an Ivy grad who went to public school.)

Also an Ivy grad from public school. My impressions were that there were more flame-outs (by a significant margin) from the public school grads, but that most of the brilliant people at the very top of the class (winning the genius prizes) were also public school grads. Totally unscientific impression, which might have been just a snapshot of my particular couple of years. I share the "wow, just wow" comment to the person who went back to cross-reference everyone with honors with their school type of origin.

[Anonymous]

My child was at a big 3 and was told "no ivy" was a possibility, despite 3 800s and a grade point average of over 3.9. She was a HYP legacy as well!! They said because she wasn't an athlete, even though she had been captain of a team she formed herself and did outside of school. I was pretty outraged but just kept on with it. The counselor objected when she signed up for 5 Ap tests junior year. When she got all 5s, the counselor was more interested. She had many other activities and an extra language as well. I came up with some special programs that some of the ivies had that she would be great in and the counselor became more interested. Sometimes I think its a matter of helping the counselor market your child. In your case, being Latino will help hugely and I think you should be very nice to the counselor and keep asking, nicely, for what you want. Why does your child want to go to those specific schools? Give the counselor a few reasons. Look at the professors- have your child read some of their books. And when your child gets in, they will remember your persistence always!! And do not worry about your child fitting in- those universities are huge and there is no in crowd- just many many groups and your child will belong to several I am sure. And yes, my child did get where she wanted to go. The counselor was a big supporter in the end. My child was quiet as well. One thing the counselor said was " Columbia told me not to send any quiet students there" !! Insane!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child was at a big 3 and was told "no ivy" was a possibility, despite 3 800s and a grade point average of over 3.9. She was a HYP legacy as well!! They said because she wasn't an athlete, even though she had been captain of a team she formed herself and did outside of school. I was pretty outraged but just kept on with it. The counselor objected when she signed up for 5 Ap tests junior year. When she got all 5s, the counselor was more interested. She had many other activities and an extra language as well. I came up with some special programs that some of the ivies had that she would be great in and the counselor became more interested. Sometimes I think its a matter of helping the counselor market your child. In your case, being Latino will help hugely and I think you should be very nice to the counselor and keep asking, nicely, for what you want. Why does your child want to go to those specific schools? Give the counselor a few reasons. Look at the professors- have your child read some of their books. And when your child gets in, they will remember your persistence always!! And do not worry about your child fitting in- those universities are huge and there is no in crowd- just many many groups and your child will belong to several I am sure. And yes, my child did get where she wanted to go. The counselor was a big supporter in the end. My child was quiet as well. One thing the counselor said was " Columbia told me not to send any quiet students there" !! Insane!!

Your story ends well, but is startling, none the less. The reluctance to support your child initially says less about Ivy admissions criteria - where there is clearly a place for soft-spoken but high achieving non-athletes - and more about the short-sightedness and/or laziness of the counseling department. It suggests to me that the counselor was looking at the easiest path for him/herself; that they had a group of recruited athletes all lined up for the few precious school endorsements to HYP, with the others left to fend for themselves. This is troubling on many levels. Glad that you were able to convince that your child was "worthy" of support.