Discriminatory College Advising @ Big 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Counselor knows about URM status and also has pretty detailed understanding of family background.

Did you spend a lot of time talking with the counselor about how to approach college admissions through your son's URM status? Or did counselor just brush you off?

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you've been candid and reasonable in your exchanges here.

Another voice for (1) pushing back hard on an ED application that neither your child nor you are excited about; (2) keeping a good amount of "high reaches" on the list; and (3) also including many of the top 15 schools the counselors recommend.

With that said, I have seen such superb students get rejected from the Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford schools (and by the way, Stanford likes to reject EA applicants outright), that I also would strongly reject any thought that the counselor is trying to steer your child away from the top schools to "save spots" for wealthier/"more connected" families. But it sounds like the counselor might not be hearing or reading your family's negative response to the ED idea. And, even on that front, the counselor may feel that trying to steer a full or nearly full scholarship your family's way is serving your child's best interest. Be clear that you don't want it -- you'd rather take your shot at a regular financial aid package rather than go for a merit aid package at a lower ranked school.

Good luck to you and your child -- hope everything works out well.

[Anonymous]

`` I have seen such superb students get rejected from the Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford schools (and by the way, Stanford likes to reject EA applicants outright), that I also would strongly reject any thought that the counselor is trying to steer your child away from the top schools to "save spots" for wealthier/"more connected" families.''

The grades provided by the OP are not ``supurb.'' They are really good. But clearly a big reach for the top schools. The SATs make the kid a qualified applicant but don't stand out by any means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:`` I have seen such superb students get rejected from the Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford schools (and by the way, Stanford likes to reject EA applicants outright), that I also would strongly reject any thought that the counselor is trying to steer your child away from the top schools to "save spots" for wealthier/"more connected" families.''

The grades provided by the OP are not ``supurb.'' They are really good. But clearly a big reach for the top schools. The SATs make the kid a qualified applicant but don't stand out by any means.

The point is of the quoted post is obviously that even the most superb candidates can get rejected, so that it is an unwarranted leap for the OP to think that the advice to her child was driven by nefarious motives to keep the field clear for rich kids.

[Anonymous]

You may well be right. And/or the counselors may be taking your finances into account and not setting your child up for disappointment if he got into, say, Yale and you couldn't afford to send him.

Also, I learned the hard way during my own college apps in the 90s that many private college are NOT need-blind.

[Anonymous]

The part that seems to really gall many readers on this forum is that you're making a complaint that many parents feel - that the school doesn't know how special their child is - and that you immediately jump to discrimination. As a person of color, I know that sometimes things just don't smell right. But, at the same time, remember that it is really hard to go through life feeling put upon and bitter and suspicious all the time. Schools just don't have any incentive to "save" slots at elite schools since they don't have any such thing. The college counselor's goal is to make sure everyone is happy with where they end up and right-sizing expectations is a big part of their job. If anything, the income gap between faculty/staff and students/families at elite privates is pretty big and staff/faculty have a real tendency to cheer for underdogs over the trust funders.
All your child's classmates are great in their own way, and your child need to stand out from his/her classmates for college admissions at the very top. More importantly than the test scores, ask yourself is whether your child took the most rigorous classes available at the school? GPA alone can be very misleading at the selective private schools because their requirements are so flexible. It is quite possible for students to skate through with relatively easy classes and their GPA is not comparable to a classmate taking post-calculus math, post-AP sciences, multiple college-level English electives, and a deep independent history research project. The college advisor has no power over you or your decisions. They are there to offer counseling and information to help you through the process. The teachers at the school can be very influential through their recommendations, but the advisor does not write those. Are your teachers going to say that your child stands head and shoulders above her classmates? If so, ignore the advisor and plow ahead. Just make sure you have a safety. Also, there are a number of non-profits in the area that are geared toward helping underrepresented students into college. Reach out to them and see if you can find some useful advice since you're uncomfortable with the school's.

[Anonymous]

Stanford has an acceptance rate of 5% and Princeton 7%. So they are highly unlikely for everyone. I doubt the counselor has told any students to aim confidently for those. He can apply to reach schools and some more likely schools, and if he surprises her and gets in then that's great. The college counselor is not going to determine where he gets in.

Agree. The counselor is giving you good advice. It is expensive to apply to those schools. An upwardly rising GPA won't work in those schools. You need to already be there unless you fall into Affirmative action.

Do you mean affirmative action for lacrosse, crew, water polo and squash players or legacy admits?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The part that seems to really gall many readers on this forum is that you're making a complaint that many parents feel - that the school doesn't know how special their child is - and that you immediately jump to discrimination. As a person of color, I know that sometimes things just don't smell right. But, at the same time, remember that it is really hard to go through life feeling put upon and bitter and suspicious all the time. Schools just don't have any incentive to "save" slots at elite schools since they don't have any such thing. The college counselor's goal is to make sure everyone is happy with where they end up and right-sizing expectations is a big part of their job. If anything, the income gap between faculty/staff and students/families at elite privates is pretty big and staff/faculty have a real tendency to cheer for underdogs over the trust funders.
All your child's classmates are great in their own way, and your child need to stand out from his/her classmates for college admissions at the very top. More importantly than the test scores, ask yourself is whether your child took the most rigorous classes available at the school? GPA alone can be very misleading at the selective private schools because their requirements are so flexible. It is quite possible for students to skate through with relatively easy classes and their GPA is not comparable to a classmate taking post-calculus math, post-AP sciences, multiple college-level English electives, and a deep independent history research project. The college advisor has no power over you or your decisions. They are there to offer counseling and information to help you through the process. The teachers at the school can be very influential through their recommendations, but the advisor does not write those. Are your teachers going to say that your child stands head and shoulders above her classmates? If so, ignore the advisor and plow ahead. Just make sure you have a safety. Also, there are a number of non-profits in the area that are geared toward helping underrepresented students into college. Reach out to them and see if you can find some useful advice since you're uncomfortable with the school's.

Thoughtful, eloquent, and lots of good practical advice. Thanks for posting and sharing your insights.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks for all your advice. Many of your points have been very detailed and informative. I appreciate the time everyone has taken to respond to my query-I know it takes time to draft posts!

I am working with the counselor to find the proper match for my son and will take much of your advice into consideration. For time's sake however, I will now discontinue responding to this thread. Thank you again. Feel free to respond if you have any relevant thoughts that you think may help others in the college admissions process.

Best,
OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are right that some (really just one or two) posts have been out of line. I would be angry too. But I also think you are resistant to the message that is pretty much the consensus of this thread, that your child is unlikely to be admitted to one of the top schools and that there isn't some kind of nefarious motive on the part of the guidance counselor. There is no question in my mind that he or she is delivering the same lesson to many a WASP family, with similar grades. Top 5% and certainly top 10% of the class isn't enough to get into these schools without an strong talent of some kind and your DC doesn't have that. THats the reality.

But clearly your DC should not apply ED to a school he doesn't want to attend, though its difficult to tease out what you want from what he wants. You only apply ED if you are absolutely certain..

So the answer is obvious -- don't apply ED. He should apply to a variety of schools INCLUDING one or two reaches, though don't get your hopes up. Make sure there are some realistic schools in the mix as well.

And try to take your chip off your shoulder. It is very difficult to have your child attend these schools if you aren't wealthy. I can see why you were suspicious. But now that you;ve done a reality check you should back off. In this case, there really doesn't seem to be anything amiss.

And I disagree with you. A college counselor that is NOT encouraging an URM, with very good grades at a competitive school, and very decent SAT scores, to reach for top 10 schools is doing a bad job, for whatever reason that may be. Reread the OP - the counselor is pushing a middling public school ED, or schools in the 15-25 range. That all seems fine and well for safeties, but to completely ignore reach schools? Why? Also no evidence that the counselor is working to ferret out the schools that might be looking for the OP's kid and offer a lot of aid.

Maybe you should reread my post. I said OP's DC should apply to some reaches.

[Anonymous]

Recent Ivy grad here from the DC area. I went to a non-W public school in Montgomery County and was distinctly unimpressed by many students coming from independent schools, both in DC and elsewhere. They were, most often, entirely unremarkable students who had just developed strong study skills through years of private schooling. Friends who went to Andover/St. Pauls-type boarding schools regularly got in with a 3.4-3.6 GPA and good but not stellar SATs and no hook-i.e. they were pumpernickel white or from upper-middle class Jewish families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Recent Ivy grad here from the DC area. I went to a non-W public school in Montgomery County and was distinctly unimpressed by many students coming from independent schools, both in DC and elsewhere. They were, most often, entirely unremarkable students who had just developed strong study skills through years of private schooling. Friends who went to Andover/St. Pauls-type boarding schools regularly got in with a 3.4-3.6 GPA and good but not stellar SATs and no hook-i.e. they were pumpernickel white or from upper-middle class Jewish families.

Um, thanks for the insights. I'm sure your "friends" would love how you describe them.

Hint: Don't be this arrogant in job interviews, kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Recent Ivy grad here from the DC area. I went to a non-W public school in Montgomery County and was distinctly unimpressed by many students coming from independent schools, both in DC and elsewhere. They were, most often, entirely unremarkable students who had just developed strong study skills through years of private schooling. Friends who went to Andover/St. Pauls-type boarding schools regularly got in with a 3.4-3.6 GPA and good but not stellar SATs and no hook-i.e. they were pumpernickel white or from upper-middle class Jewish families.

Um, thanks for the insights. I'm sure your "friends" would love how you describe them.

Hint: Don't be this arrogant in job interviews, kid.

Princeton grad here. I can totally vouch for this sentiment. I went to school with a lot of kids who were just raised with the expectation that they would go to Princeton and were managed from pre-school to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When looking at the SAT and GPA ranges of a college's admits, keep in mind that the students at the lower end of that range (the bottom half, perhaps?) probably had some hook that got them in unrelated to their academics (legacy, recruited athlete, etc.). In my experience, the kids who were admitted on the strength of their academics were at the very top of that SAT/GPA range.

+1. Which is why I'm glad my kids have a legacy shot - and yes, I volunteer and make sizable donations. I've told them I can't get you in with bad grades and bad scores, so you do your part and I'll do mine, but they aren't going to let you in just because I went there if you have crappy grades and SATs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Recent Ivy grad here from the DC area. I went to a non-W public school in Montgomery County and was distinctly unimpressed by many students coming from independent schools, both in DC and elsewhere. They were, most often, entirely unremarkable students who had just developed strong study skills through years of private schooling. Friends who went to Andover/St. Pauls-type boarding schools regularly got in with a 3.4-3.6 GPA and good but not stellar SATs and no hook-i.e. they were pumpernickel white or from upper-middle class Jewish families.

Usually the public school kids at the Ivies run circles academically around the kids coming from private schools. The only exceptions I recall were for some of the NYC privates like Dalton and Horace Mann, but certainly not the DC-area privates.