Breaking up with my toxic mom group (Ashley Tisdale essay)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't know one womens group that doesn’t eventually break up or splinter, for various reasons.

Even if they get together on occasion they are one big happy organism feeding positively off each other. They are many groups of 2 or 3 loosely connected to others.

Also friendship wax and wane that is life.

How do you get past 25 years old and not understand this.

Yeah. I kind of thought she really shot herself in the foot here by breaking off with every member of the group. She should have just spent more time with the people she got along with and less time with the larger group.

It’s weird to be half in and half out with a group. Better to have a clean break.

No group does everything together. We have a large friend group in our neighborhood and not a single event has everyone at it because people do have other things going on in their lives. I can also do things with some of the members of the group if I want. It's not a monolith.

This isn't really that deep. The other women were just not good enough friends to want to tolerate any BS. If she felt slighted or ostracized she doesn't owe friendship to one or two of the women who were basically acquaintances or randomly sent her flowers then ignored her. This was not a lifelong friendship. It has run its course.

That's fine. I just think it's dramatic to say you have to break away from the entire group because some people don't like you. Just don't hang out with them then.

If your "friends" are planning a group outing at your kids birthday right in front of you, not including you, they aren't very good friends. These people suck and the posters bending over backwards to explain it away or blame the people who don't stand for poor treatment sounds a little nutty. It's ok to move on and make new friends, these people sound pretty awful.

It's fine if you want to read the more dramatic version of events. The way she wrote it she didn't explain how she "knew" they planned the other event while at her daughter's birthday party. I think she was being overly sensitive (which I get, she had a young child/children at the time and that's exhausting/draining). That doesn't mean she has to be friends with these people. If you don't want to spend time with them, then don't. I just think she, and many of the posters here, are being very dramatic.

I have seen people plan events right in front of me. I am not deaf and I doubt Ashley is either. I didn't expect to be included because I didn't know the group that well but they were literally planning it so I got up and walked away. People are so wrapped up in themselves they do things like this. Why are you cutting the friends slack but not Ashely? She has to explain how she "knew" vs just taking her at face value? Why are you finding it so hard to just take her word for it?

She said in the article that she was seated at a party all the way down at the end of the table. Do you think the table sat 30, there were 20 people in attendance, 29 of them sat at one end, then they had 10 empty chairs, and then Ashley was at the other end all by herself? Or do you think she was mad that she wasn't seated near whoever she deemed to be the most important/famous at the head of the table? If the table seats 12 and there were 12 people in attendance, someone had to sit at the end of the table - why did she take that as a slight? Things like that are why I have a hard time taking her seriously, among other reasons.

That’s not her daughter’s birthday party that she was talking about. Maybe read it again because you’re seeing what you want to see. This was happening more than once so she noticed a pattern. But somehow you’re desperate to see her as the bad person.

I couldn't care less about Ashley Tisdale. I've never even seen High School Musical or anything else she's been on. I'm not desperate to see her as a bad person. That's weird.

Here is what she said, cut and pasted from her article:

Another time, at one of the mom’s dinner parties, I realized where I sat with her — which was at the end of the table, far from the rest of the women.

The person asked why I am having a hard time taking her word for it. The above is why. Do you really think she was seated from from everyone else? Or was she just not seated close to the hostess, in which case she felt slighted. Someone has to sit at the end of the table, and it's obnoxious behavior on her part to be so wounded that it was her. Would she have been worried about the feelings of whoever was seated down there had it not been her?

DP. I interpreted that part of the essay to mean she was at a seated dinner party with a few members of this mom group and a bunch of other people, and the host seated the other members of the group near herself, but sat Ashley at the other end of the table next to other people who were not members of the group. I did not interpret it to mean that Ashley was seated at the end of a table with a. bunch of empty seats in between, which makes no sense.

If that happened to me I also would have assumed that the host of the party viewed those other members of our group as close friends but perhaps didn't like me or didn't want me to be part of the group. Also if I hosted a party and this happened accidentally, I actually would say something to the friend who wound up far away like "I'm so sorry, I hope you found people to talk to -- I didn't realize until we sat down how far away you were" or something like that. Because I think the dynamic would be obviously a little hurtful.

But they were all invited to the party! If I host a dinner and I invite my friends from work, my friends from college, and my friends from the neighborhood, I can't sit next to all of them. But you think the friends who sit down at the other end of the table from me should be upset? If she's the one seeing the lines of this "group" so closely that it means others are excluded from it, then she is part of the problem. And that's my issue.

I actually agree she was almost certainly part of the problem. In my experience, it's not possible to be part of a group like this and not be part of the problem. The group is the problem. That's why the only way to solve it is to leave.

But regarding the dinner, we don't know that she was the only one seeing the lines of the group. Your assumption is that she wasn't slighted in any way at the party. But she gives a number of examples of being excluded or not invited. It might have been intentional and malicious, or it might have just been people being flaky and forgetting her. Either way it does sound hurtful and it's easy to imagine that part of that was showing up to a party where everyone she knows is at the other end of the table having a great time and she's seated next to someone's cousin and a couple from their kids' school no one knows very well and just feels left out.

I think it's weird your response to this is that she is either lying or over sensitive. It's possible these women didn't mean to hurt her, and that she's telling the truth, and that she really was excluded and responded in a very normal way to that. It hurts to be left out.

[Anonymous]

Stupid question: Does this mom’s group get together without their kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question: Does this mom’s group get together without their kids?

Yes it sounds like they mostly got together without kids -- dinners out, spa trips, weekends away, etc. These are all wealthy women with nannies so it's not like they were SAHMs forming the group so they had people to talk to at the playground with their kids 5 days a week. It was just a friend group, but everyone in it was a mom with young kids so they had that in common.

[Anonymous]

Ah the trials and tribulations of rich people.

So many mothers are just trying to keep their heads above water, managing kids and jobs, paying bills, keeping up a home, sometimes issues with kids’ health…they would love to have the nonsense of “friend groups” and “toxic mommies” to write magazine articles about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ah the trials and tribulations of rich people.

So many mothers are just trying to keep their heads above water, managing kids and jobs, paying bills, keeping up a home, sometimes issues with kids’ health…they would love to have the nonsense of “friend groups” and “toxic mommies” to write magazine articles about.

What a crappy comment and attitude. Women with money struggle with many of the same issues of loneliness. In a lot of ways many of us are trying to keep our heads above water. Her actions and posts about what happened are no different than what gets posted here every week. Many of us joined moms groups and had similar issues. I don't get your need to put down what she expressed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ah the trials and tribulations of rich people.

So many mothers are just trying to keep their heads above water, managing kids and jobs, paying bills, keeping up a home, sometimes issues with kids’ health…they would love to have the nonsense of “friend groups” and “toxic mommies” to write magazine articles about.

As they say, more money, more problems.

[Anonymous]

Why was the thread in the entertainment forum locked? I wanted to discuss it from that perspective - who’s in the group etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why was the thread in the entertainment forum locked? I wanted to discuss it from that perspective - who’s in the group etc.

I think it's just locked because a longer thread (this one) had already been started.

You can discuss the alleged members here!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't know one womens group that doesn’t eventually break up or splinter, for various reasons.

Even if they get together on occasion they are one big happy organism feeding positively off each other. They are many groups of 2 or 3 loosely connected to others.

Also friendship wax and wane that is life.

How do you get past 25 years old and not understand this.

Yeah. I kind of thought she really shot herself in the foot here by breaking off with every member of the group. She should have just spent more time with the people she got along with and less time with the larger group.

It’s weird to be half in and half out with a group. Better to have a clean break.

No group does everything together. We have a large friend group in our neighborhood and not a single event has everyone at it because people do have other things going on in their lives. I can also do things with some of the members of the group if I want. It's not a monolith.

This isn't really that deep. The other women were just not good enough friends to want to tolerate any BS. If she felt slighted or ostracized she doesn't owe friendship to one or two of the women who were basically acquaintances or randomly sent her flowers then ignored her. This was not a lifelong friendship. It has run its course.

That's fine. I just think it's dramatic to say you have to break away from the entire group because some people don't like you. Just don't hang out with them then.

If your "friends" are planning a group outing at your kids birthday right in front of you, not including you, they aren't very good friends. These people suck and the posters bending over backwards to explain it away or blame the people who don't stand for poor treatment sounds a little nutty. It's ok to move on and make new friends, these people sound pretty awful.

It's fine if you want to read the more dramatic version of events. The way she wrote it she didn't explain how she "knew" they planned the other event while at her daughter's birthday party. I think she was being overly sensitive (which I get, she had a young child/children at the time and that's exhausting/draining). That doesn't mean she has to be friends with these people. If you don't want to spend time with them, then don't. I just think she, and many of the posters here, are being very dramatic.

I have seen people plan events right in front of me. I am not deaf and I doubt Ashley is either. I didn't expect to be included because I didn't know the group that well but they were literally planning it so I got up and walked away. People are so wrapped up in themselves they do things like this. Why are you cutting the friends slack but not Ashely? She has to explain how she "knew" vs just taking her at face value? Why are you finding it so hard to just take her word for it?

She said in the article that she was seated at a party all the way down at the end of the table. Do you think the table sat 30, there were 20 people in attendance, 29 of them sat at one end, then they had 10 empty chairs, and then Ashley was at the other end all by herself? Or do you think she was mad that she wasn't seated near whoever she deemed to be the most important/famous at the head of the table? If the table seats 12 and there were 12 people in attendance, someone had to sit at the end of the table - why did she take that as a slight? Things like that are why I have a hard time taking her seriously, among other reasons.

That’s not her daughter’s birthday party that she was talking about. Maybe read it again because you’re seeing what you want to see. This was happening more than once so she noticed a pattern. But somehow you’re desperate to see her as the bad person.

I couldn't care less about Ashley Tisdale. I've never even seen High School Musical or anything else she's been on. I'm not desperate to see her as a bad person. That's weird.

Here is what she said, cut and pasted from her article:

Another time, at one of the mom’s dinner parties, I realized where I sat with her — which was at the end of the table, far from the rest of the women.

The person asked why I am having a hard time taking her word for it. The above is why. Do you really think she was seated from from everyone else? Or was she just not seated close to the hostess, in which case she felt slighted. Someone has to sit at the end of the table, and it's obnoxious behavior on her part to be so wounded that it was her. Would she have been worried about the feelings of whoever was seated down there had it not been her?

DP. I interpreted that part of the essay to mean she was at a seated dinner party with a few members of this mom group and a bunch of other people, and the host seated the other members of the group near herself, but sat Ashley at the other end of the table next to other people who were not members of the group. I did not interpret it to mean that Ashley was seated at the end of a table with a. bunch of empty seats in between, which makes no sense.

If that happened to me I also would have assumed that the host of the party viewed those other members of our group as close friends but perhaps didn't like me or didn't want me to be part of the group. Also if I hosted a party and this happened accidentally, I actually would say something to the friend who wound up far away like "I'm so sorry, I hope you found people to talk to -- I didn't realize until we sat down how far away you were" or something like that. Because I think the dynamic would be obviously a little hurtful.

But they were all invited to the party! If I host a dinner and I invite my friends from work, my friends from college, and my friends from the neighborhood, I can't sit next to all of them. But you think the friends who sit down at the other end of the table from me should be upset? If she's the one seeing the lines of this "group" so closely that it means others are excluded from it, then she is part of the problem. And that's my issue.

You’re ignoring that this was not an isolated incident. She’s not part of the problem when she recognizes what’s going on and opts out.

I’m with the other Pp. If I went to a random party and was seated alone at the end, fine. If I go to one where there is a known group, all the others are seated together, and I’m seated separately, I would assume there’s a reason.

You just haven’t been part of a group like this. So toxic. Invitations and compliments wielded as weapons. Cliques within the group. I realized when each event was stressful that it wasn’t for me. I left (just slow fade, no confrontation) and haven’t missed it at all. I still run into a couple women and none of them hang out together. Because at some point, it wasn’t fun! I’m not in middle school and don’t want to be in that insecure headspace. You can say that’s all me, I should be able to deal with not being included. And I very much am. But the way this was all done in my group, to me and to others, was not mature. If you really think it’s not a problem to treat people this way, then you are the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why was the thread in the entertainment forum locked? I wanted to discuss it from that perspective - who’s in the group etc.

I think it's just locked because a longer thread (this one) had already been started.

You can discuss the alleged members here!

Yeah, I think it's fine to discuss the group members here. I know Mandy Moore and Hillary Duff were part of it. Someone upthread said that Minka Kelly had been part of the friend group but got iced out when the others started having kids and she didn't, which kind of tells you the vibe of the group, IMO. I cannot imagine dropping a friend because I had a kid and she didn't -- two of my dearest friends are single and child free and I love hanging out with them. I love my mom friends too but it's actually a relief to have friends who lives don't revolve around kids because I don't actually love for every conversation to be about schools, screen time, development issues, etc. It's nice to hang out with a friend and the conversation is mostly about work, travel, books, TV, celeb gossip (like this!), and then maybe a few minutes check in on my kids but that's it.

It sounds like the group had a lot of "regulating" by certain members, deciding who was in or out, who was a core member or not. That is in fact toxic behavior. A healthy friend group will be a lot looser than that and just let things evolve naturally. There are always sub groups but there really do not need to be hierarchies unless the people are controlling and power hungry, which sounds like it might be the case here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just seems exhausting that middle age women still have cliques.

What is weird to me is that cliques actually seem more prevalent in my 40s than they did when I was in high school. There was friend drama in HS but it wasn't this passive aggressive exclusion or these weird hierarchies. It would more run of the mill, like (making this up) Katie and Jessie were best friends and then Jessie decided to do the school play instead of marching band and Katie felt hurt. But even in a situation like that, most of the time people would just talk it out and make up and it would be fine. It was just kids figuring their lives out and having some growing pains, but it usually wasn't malicious.

There are more mean 40 year old women than mean 17 year old girls, at least in my experience. It's really sad.

I have definitely had the opposite experience. I very much related to “Mean Girls” and this rigid social structure in high school.
Do you think part of the reason you fell into this as an adult was that you had such an idyllic adolescence? Like maybe if you don’t see this stuff and get your heart broken by it when you are 17, you don’t automatically spot it and know to stay clear in your 30’s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just seems exhausting that middle age women still have cliques.

What is weird to me is that cliques actually seem more prevalent in my 40s than they did when I was in high school. There was friend drama in HS but it wasn't this passive aggressive exclusion or these weird hierarchies. It would more run of the mill, like (making this up) Katie and Jessie were best friends and then Jessie decided to do the school play instead of marching band and Katie felt hurt. But even in a situation like that, most of the time people would just talk it out and make up and it would be fine. It was just kids figuring their lives out and having some growing pains, but it usually wasn't malicious.

There are more mean 40 year old women than mean 17 year old girls, at least in my experience. It's really sad.

I have definitely had the opposite experience. I very much related to “Mean Girls” and this rigid social structure in high school.
Do you think part of the reason you fell into this as an adult was that you had such an idyllic adolescence? Like maybe if you don’t see this stuff and get your heart broken by it when you are 17, you don’t automatically spot it and know to stay clear in your 30’s.

I'm not PP but I saw this nonsense in high school, steered clear of it, and have avoided it ever since. I didn't need to get my heart broken to see that some people are mean and I don't want to spend time with them.

I can't believe that Ashley Tisdale didn't know that this friend group was like this. For sure they were gossiping about others or being exclusive when she joined, she just didn't care because it didn't affect her! If I met a group of people like that I'd be out instantly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just seems exhausting that middle age women still have cliques.

What is weird to me is that cliques actually seem more prevalent in my 40s than they did when I was in high school. There was friend drama in HS but it wasn't this passive aggressive exclusion or these weird hierarchies. It would more run of the mill, like (making this up) Katie and Jessie were best friends and then Jessie decided to do the school play instead of marching band and Katie felt hurt. But even in a situation like that, most of the time people would just talk it out and make up and it would be fine. It was just kids figuring their lives out and having some growing pains, but it usually wasn't malicious.

There are more mean 40 year old women than mean 17 year old girls, at least in my experience. It's really sad.

I have definitely had the opposite experience. I very much related to “Mean Girls” and this rigid social structure in high school.
Do you think part of the reason you fell into this as an adult was that you had such an idyllic adolescence? Like maybe if you don’t see this stuff and get your heart broken by it when you are 17, you don’t automatically spot it and know to stay clear in your 30’s.

PP here. I don't know that my HS experience was idyllic, I actually come from a family with real issues and had a family member attempt suicide when I was young and struggled with my mental health in HS. But yeah, friendships were more straightforward. It's not that everyone got along or no one was ever mean, but more that it was transparent and people were not manipulative and back stabby.

And yeah, I truly did not know what to do with adult women who would claim to be close friends and then spread nasty rumors about me. Before it happened, I would have told you that was a dumb trope about women and only happened in movies and TV.

Did you grow up in the DC area? I read that the woman who wrote the sociology book that Mean Girls is based on (Queen Bees and Wannabes) did a lot of her research in this area and worked with a lot of girls at area private schools and wealthy public schools. Having now lived here for a while and encountered adult women like this, I do wonder if part of the problem is that this area has a lot of social competition and that the kids learn these behaviors from their parents and it's part of a broader trend of using relational aggression to socially position yourself. As someone who grew up far away in a more rural, less competitive, place, I was way out of my depth there. And still am! I find the way some people behave here shocking and probably would not have chosen to live here if I'd understood this better before making major education and career decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just seems exhausting that middle age women still have cliques.

What is weird to me is that cliques actually seem more prevalent in my 40s than they did when I was in high school. There was friend drama in HS but it wasn't this passive aggressive exclusion or these weird hierarchies. It would more run of the mill, like (making this up) Katie and Jessie were best friends and then Jessie decided to do the school play instead of marching band and Katie felt hurt. But even in a situation like that, most of the time people would just talk it out and make up and it would be fine. It was just kids figuring their lives out and having some growing pains, but it usually wasn't malicious.

There are more mean 40 year old women than mean 17 year old girls, at least in my experience. It's really sad.

I have definitely had the opposite experience. I very much related to “Mean Girls” and this rigid social structure in high school.
Do you think part of the reason you fell into this as an adult was that you had such an idyllic adolescence? Like maybe if you don’t see this stuff and get your heart broken by it when you are 17, you don’t automatically spot it and know to stay clear in your 30’s.

I'm not PP but I saw this nonsense in high school, steered clear of it, and have avoided it ever since. I didn't need to get my heart broken to see that some people are mean and I don't want to spend time with them.

I can't believe that Ashley Tisdale didn't know that this friend group was like this. For sure they were gossiping about others or being exclusive when she joined, she just didn't care because it didn't affect her! If I met a group of people like that I'd be out instantly.

Maybe you're the sole World Champion Dicey Friend Group Advance Spotter but the truth is many of us have been there, including ignoring or willfully downplaying the red flags, because we were getting together with the group for bigger shared needs (ie, all new moms. All in the same study abroad group or hall of first semester freshman dorm. All new transplants to the same town. All in the same walking group trying to lose weight together. You name it).

And then *looking back,* you realize that without that big shared need/connection, which likely happened *precisely* when you were in a vulnerable spot like being a new mom, you would have steered clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just seems exhausting that middle age women still have cliques.

What is weird to me is that cliques actually seem more prevalent in my 40s than they did when I was in high school. There was friend drama in HS but it wasn't this passive aggressive exclusion or these weird hierarchies. It would more run of the mill, like (making this up) Katie and Jessie were best friends and then Jessie decided to do the school play instead of marching band and Katie felt hurt. But even in a situation like that, most of the time people would just talk it out and make up and it would be fine. It was just kids figuring their lives out and having some growing pains, but it usually wasn't malicious.

There are more mean 40 year old women than mean 17 year old girls, at least in my experience. It's really sad.

I have definitely had the opposite experience. I very much related to “Mean Girls” and this rigid social structure in high school.
Do you think part of the reason you fell into this as an adult was that you had such an idyllic adolescence? Like maybe if you don’t see this stuff and get your heart broken by it when you are 17, you don’t automatically spot it and know to stay clear in your 30’s.

PP here. I don't know that my HS experience was idyllic, I actually come from a family with real issues and had a family member attempt suicide when I was young and struggled with my mental health in HS. But yeah, friendships were more straightforward. It's not that everyone got along or no one was ever mean, but more that it was transparent and people were not manipulative and back stabby.

And yeah, I truly did not know what to do with adult women who would claim to be close friends and then spread nasty rumors about me. Before it happened, I would have told you that was a dumb trope about women and only happened in movies and TV.

Did you grow up in the DC area? I read that the woman who wrote the sociology book that Mean Girls is based on (Queen Bees and Wannabes) did a lot of her research in this area and worked with a lot of girls at area private schools and wealthy public schools. Having now lived here for a while and encountered adult women like this, I do wonder if part of the problem is that this area has a lot of social competition and that the kids learn these behaviors from their parents and it's part of a broader trend of using relational aggression to socially position yourself. As someone who grew up far away in a more rural, less competitive, place, I was way out of my depth there. And still am! I find the way some people behave here shocking and probably would not have chosen to live here if I'd understood this better before making major education and career decisions.

I didn’t grow up in DC, but I grew up in a wealthy suburb in the Midwest, and this is absolutely passed down from parents.
I can definitely see how if you thought this was just TV, it would be shocking to see it for the first time in grown adults!!