Restoring rigor in high schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kids at the top are being pushed too hard with the AP arms race and the expectation that everyone has to have. 1550+ SAT to get into a top school. The kids who are not at the very top are often ignored or allowed to fall through the cracks. The kids who need the most help also get a lot of attention. We have a two-tiered system that caters to the very top and the ones struggling the most and sort of neglects a lot of people in the middle.

Are we talking public school? People at the top are absolutely not a focal point. They're being ignored to the point they’re allowing kids that are not as smart to think they're part of the "smart" group by osmosis and lowering the ceiling. This is what's bringing down public schools. It's a bizarro world where everyone has to be mediocre so that average and below average kids can be told they’re smart.

Our kids are bored out of their mind in school and they've always taken the hardest classes (enriched, honors, AP, DE), many with mediocre teachers and struggling classmates who shouldn't be there. If kids can't keep up with the pathetic curriculum in the internet age, maybe it's time for less finger pointing and more self-reflection.

I think too many people on this forum were not top students when they were kids nor did they associate with them. They don't know what it means. Somewhere along the line, they became parents and they now equivocate good grades or hrs studying with thinking their kids are really smart. Because that's how it used to be. Nowadays, the grades are inflated and the work is not as rigorous so studying shouldn't take that much time. A top student shouldn't struggle in high school level classes, and that includes the watered down AP classes

Maybe it’s time for you to be a good parent and put them in better schools. I was a top student at a known boarding school and so was DH. We both have kids who are doing much more than us and are experiencing rigorous schooling.

Sometimes, you, the parents, are the problem.

DP here. We can’t afford boarding school or even non-religious private school. It’s not about being a “better” parent. My kids have straight A’s in rigorous classes. So far the oldest has 4’s and 5’s on her AP tests. But each year I’d say they have 1-2 very good teachers, 1-2 serviceable teachers and 1-2 teachers where you wonder how in the h&ll this person is allowed to teach anyone anything. Waiting for the class schedule in August feels like Russian roulette.

You’re just describing public education…

DP. But it didn’t used to be like this. I was a public school kid. We had excellent teachers and they actually taught. I feel like teachers have lost both the ability to actually teach and the breadth of subject knowledge they used to have. My world history teacher in high school would lecture the whole class and get into character when talking about Alexander the Great and different major figures. He was so animated and knowledgeable- never did slides or read from notes (so you actually had to take your own). Same with my APUSH class, different teacher, equally great. My teens’ experiences have been nothing like that- even in their AP classes

Teachers are often instructed NOT to lecture now. The way many teachers are evaluated would actually mark a teacher down for being the “sage on the stage.” We are now supposed to be the “guide on the side.”

I grew up in your era. My teachers lectured and I diligently took notes. I was engaged because it was clear they knew the content and they made it clear to me.

But now, teachers are given scripted lessons often written by companies far removed from the classroom. Admin observes to make sure students are actively engaged, which is often defined as participation in a group activity. That’s why you get gallery walks, cooperative projects, etc. If you “merely” lecture, you’re marked down.

We would benefit a lot from letting teachers teach again.

Lecture is not that useful of a learning tactic. It’s great in a collegiate sett No where you’re expected to spend hours outside of class learning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Return to Blue Book exams in the classroom.

They’re all over classrooms. Where have you been? This mudd professor makes a great point on why we SHOULDNT return to the blue book: https://joshbrake.substack.com/p/blue-books-and-oral-exams-are-not-the-answer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kids at the top are being pushed too hard with the AP arms race and the expectation that everyone has to have. 1550+ SAT to get into a top school. The kids who are not at the very top are often ignored or allowed to fall through the cracks. The kids who need the most help also get a lot of attention. We have a two-tiered system that caters to the very top and the ones struggling the most and sort of neglects a lot of people in the middle.

Are we talking public school? People at the top are absolutely not a focal point. They're being ignored to the point they’re allowing kids that are not as smart to think they're part of the "smart" group by osmosis and lowering the ceiling. This is what's bringing down public schools. It's a bizarro world where everyone has to be mediocre so that average and below average kids can be told they’re smart.

Our kids are bored out of their mind in school and they've always taken the hardest classes (enriched, honors, AP, DE), many with mediocre teachers and struggling classmates who shouldn't be there. If kids can't keep up with the pathetic curriculum in the internet age, maybe it's time for less finger pointing and more self-reflection.

I think too many people on this forum were not top students when they were kids nor did they associate with them. They don't know what it means. Somewhere along the line, they became parents and they now equivocate good grades or hrs studying with thinking their kids are really smart. Because that's how it used to be. Nowadays, the grades are inflated and the work is not as rigorous so studying shouldn't take that much time. A top student shouldn't struggle in high school level classes, and that includes the watered down AP classes

Maybe it’s time for you to be a good parent and put them in better schools. I was a top student at a known boarding school and so was DH. We both have kids who are doing much more than us and are experiencing rigorous schooling.

Sometimes, you, the parents, are the problem.

DP here. We can’t afford boarding school or even non-religious private school. It’s not about being a “better” parent. My kids have straight A’s in rigorous classes. So far the oldest has 4’s and 5’s on her AP tests. But each year I’d say they have 1-2 very good teachers, 1-2 serviceable teachers and 1-2 teachers where you wonder how in the h&ll this person is allowed to teach anyone anything. Waiting for the class schedule in August feels like Russian roulette.

You’re just describing public education…

DP. But it didn’t used to be like this. I was a public school kid. We had excellent teachers and they actually taught. I feel like teachers have lost both the ability to actually teach and the breadth of subject knowledge they used to have. My world history teacher in high school would lecture the whole class and get into character when talking about Alexander the Great and different major figures. He was so animated and knowledgeable- never did slides or read from notes (so you actually had to take your own). Same with my APUSH class, different teacher, equally great. My teens’ experiences have been nothing like that- even in their AP classes

Our kids AP euro teacher is skipping curriculum and is entirely teaching classic Greek and Roman history the entire first semester, then moving into modern topics. All the parents support him and students are engaged. Our kids can read the AMSCO in their free time if they want 5s, but the issue is schools that don’t give teachers autonomy to instruct. There are good public schools out there, but you have to be careful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Return to Blue Book exams in the classroom.

They’re all over classrooms. Where have you been? This mudd professor makes a great point on why we SHOULDNT return to the blue book: https://joshbrake.substack.com/p/blue-books-and-oral-exams-are-not-the-answer

Of course, he wants to make it easier for those who can't write answers to essay questions; and I can promise you blue books are not even close to being everywhere. Have you even been in a public school with a majority of lower income families and/or students learning English?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is taking AP Seminar this year and it's his first AP class. He's always been in H.English. Except he cannot write a cohesive essay. Not only that, but he doesn't even know the questions to ask himself in order to write the essay.

He had a big assignment due this week. He wasn't able to do it. I ended up creating templates for him to complete. We needed to do template A which fed to template B which fed to the actual assignment. Of course, this took much longer than the time allotted.

He worked hard and more importantly, I taught him some new skills that he can use in the future. We both wish that he had one more day so he could do a review of his draft, make edits, and turn in a more finished product. But a deadline is a deadline.

I was surprised that he really couldn't even get started on the assignment without me. Whatever grade he gets is fine. In this case, the grade is irrelevant. He needs to learn these skills. I would have thought that the critical thinking and analytical skills would have been taught in earlier grades. The scaffolding that I created for him seemed more like something I would have done in middle school back in the last century.

My sons experience mirrors what I see in my classes at UMD. My students understand the math concepts I teach but they cannot covey the information they learn in a written document. They cannot create a thesis statement, provide supporting information, do an analysis, and then summarize the information.

Other than doing it myself or getting a tutor for my son, I don't know what to do. This is a skill that requires practice and refinement over years. It's not being taught in his public schools (MS/HS). I understand why---it requires a lot of time and effort for a teacher to grade an essay and provide meaningful feedback. With 25+ kids in a class and multiple classes, that seems overwhelming for a teacher.

Then by all means pat your own back harder. People are people, at most your students need something different today than twenty years ago, but you’re too busy playing observer to offer it. You tout experience but it sounds more like expiration date.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is taking AP Seminar this year and it's his first AP class. He's always been in H.English. Except he cannot write a cohesive essay. Not only that, but he doesn't even know the questions to ask himself in order to write the essay.

He had a big assignment due this week. He wasn't able to do it. I ended up creating templates for him to complete. We needed to do template A which fed to template B which fed to the actual assignment. Of course, this took much longer than the time allotted.

He worked hard and more importantly, I taught him some new skills that he can use in the future. We both wish that he had one more day so he could do a review of his draft, make edits, and turn in a more finished product. But a deadline is a deadline.

I was surprised that he really couldn't even get started on the assignment without me. Whatever grade he gets is fine. In this case, the grade is irrelevant. He needs to learn these skills. I would have thought that the critical thinking and analytical skills would have been taught in earlier grades. The scaffolding that I created for him seemed more like something I would have done in middle school back in the last century.

My sons experience mirrors what I see in my classes at UMD. My students understand the math concepts I teach but they cannot covey the information they learn in a written document. They cannot create a thesis statement, provide supporting information, do an analysis, and then summarize the information.

Other than doing it myself or getting a tutor for my son, I don't know what to do. This is a skill that requires practice and refinement over years. It's not being taught in his public schools (MS/HS). I understand why---it requires a lot of time and effort for a teacher to grade an essay and provide meaningful feedback. With 25+ kids in a class and multiple classes, that seems overwhelming for a teacher.

Then by all means pat your own back harder. People are people, at most your students need something different today than twenty years ago, but you’re too busy playing observer to offer it. You tout experience but it sounds more like expiration date.

NP here and an educator in the public schools. The PP is correct; those skills are not being taught but should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kids at the top are being pushed too hard with the AP arms race and the expectation that everyone has to have. 1550+ SAT to get into a top school. The kids who are not at the very top are often ignored or allowed to fall through the cracks. The kids who need the most help also get a lot of attention. We have a two-tiered system that caters to the very top and the ones struggling the most and sort of neglects a lot of people in the middle.

Are we talking public school? People at the top are absolutely not a focal point. They're being ignored to the point they’re allowing kids that are not as smart to think they're part of the "smart" group by osmosis and lowering the ceiling. This is what's bringing down public schools. It's a bizarro world where everyone has to be mediocre so that average and below average kids can be told they’re smart.

Our kids are bored out of their mind in school and they've always taken the hardest classes (enriched, honors, AP, DE), many with mediocre teachers and struggling classmates who shouldn't be there. If kids can't keep up with the pathetic curriculum in the internet age, maybe it's time for less finger pointing and more self-reflection.

I think too many people on this forum were not top students when they were kids nor did they associate with them. They don't know what it means. Somewhere along the line, they became parents and they now equivocate good grades or hrs studying with thinking their kids are really smart. Because that's how it used to be. Nowadays, the grades are inflated and the work is not as rigorous so studying shouldn't take that much time. A top student shouldn't struggle in high school level classes, and that includes the watered down AP classes

Maybe it’s time for you to be a good parent and put them in better schools. I was a top student at a known boarding school and so was DH. We both have kids who are doing much more than us and are experiencing rigorous schooling.

Sometimes, you, the parents, are the problem.

DP here. We can’t afford boarding school or even non-religious private school. It’s not about being a “better” parent. My kids have straight A’s in rigorous classes. So far the oldest has 4’s and 5’s on her AP tests. But each year I’d say they have 1-2 very good teachers, 1-2 serviceable teachers and 1-2 teachers where you wonder how in the h&ll this person is allowed to teach anyone anything. Waiting for the class schedule in August feels like Russian roulette.

You’re just describing public education…

DP. But it didn’t used to be like this. I was a public school kid. We had excellent teachers and they actually taught. I feel like teachers have lost both the ability to actually teach and the breadth of subject knowledge they used to have. My world history teacher in high school would lecture the whole class and get into character when talking about Alexander the Great and different major figures. He was so animated and knowledgeable- never did slides or read from notes (so you actually had to take your own). Same with my APUSH class, different teacher, equally great. My teens’ experiences have been nothing like that- even in their AP classes

Teachers are often instructed NOT to lecture now. The way many teachers are evaluated would actually mark a teacher down for being the “sage on the stage.” We are now supposed to be the “guide on the side.”

I grew up in your era. My teachers lectured and I diligently took notes. I was engaged because it was clear they knew the content and they made it clear to me.

But now, teachers are given scripted lessons often written by companies far removed from the classroom. Admin observes to make sure students are actively engaged, which is often defined as participation in a group activity. That’s why you get gallery walks, cooperative projects, etc. If you “merely” lecture, you’re marked down.

We would benefit a lot from letting teachers teach again.

Lecture is not that useful of a learning tactic. It’s great in a collegiate sett No where you’re expected to spend hours outside of class learning.

Where do you think students learn how to follow a lecture? If it’s a great method for a collegiate setting, as you say, shouldn’t we be preparing them?

Endless gallery walks, charts, cooperative learning activities… they have their place. But let’s not pretend that they are the only signpost of a good lesson. I’ve seen plenty of group work assignments that have no clear objective, no clear outcome, no real value. And these assignments come directly from the county curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The kids at the top are being pushed too hard with the AP arms race and the expectation that everyone has to have. 1550+ SAT to get into a top school. The kids who are not at the very top are often ignored or allowed to fall through the cracks. The kids who need the most help also get a lot of attention. We have a two-tiered system that caters to the very top and the ones struggling the most and sort of neglects a lot of people in the middle.

Are we talking public school? People at the top are absolutely not a focal point. They're being ignored to the point they’re allowing kids that are not as smart to think they're part of the "smart" group by osmosis and lowering the ceiling. This is what's bringing down public schools. It's a bizarro world where everyone has to be mediocre so that average and below average kids can be told they’re smart.

Our kids are bored out of their mind in school and they've always taken the hardest classes (enriched, honors, AP, DE), many with mediocre teachers and struggling classmates who shouldn't be there. If kids can't keep up with the pathetic curriculum in the internet age, maybe it's time for less finger pointing and more self-reflection.

I think too many people on this forum were not top students when they were kids nor did they associate with them. They don't know what it means. Somewhere along the line, they became parents and they now equivocate good grades or hrs studying with thinking their kids are really smart. Because that's how it used to be. Nowadays, the grades are inflated and the work is not as rigorous so studying shouldn't take that much time. A top student shouldn't struggle in high school level classes, and that includes the watered down AP classes

Maybe it’s time for you to be a good parent and put them in better schools. I was a top student at a known boarding school and so was DH. We both have kids who are doing much more than us and are experiencing rigorous schooling.

Sometimes, you, the parents, are the problem.

DP here. We can’t afford boarding school or even non-religious private school. It’s not about being a “better” parent. My kids have straight A’s in rigorous classes. So far the oldest has 4’s and 5’s on her AP tests. But each year I’d say they have 1-2 very good teachers, 1-2 serviceable teachers and 1-2 teachers where you wonder how in the h&ll this person is allowed to teach anyone anything. Waiting for the class schedule in August feels like Russian roulette.

You’re just describing public education…

DP. But it didn’t used to be like this. I was a public school kid. We had excellent teachers and they actually taught. I feel like teachers have lost both the ability to actually teach and the breadth of subject knowledge they used to have. My world history teacher in high school would lecture the whole class and get into character when talking about Alexander the Great and different major figures. He was so animated and knowledgeable- never did slides or read from notes (so you actually had to take your own). Same with my APUSH class, different teacher, equally great. My teens’ experiences have been nothing like that- even in their AP classes

Teachers are often instructed NOT to lecture now. The way many teachers are evaluated would actually mark a teacher down for being the “sage on the stage.” We are now supposed to be the “guide on the side.”

I grew up in your era. My teachers lectured and I diligently took notes. I was engaged because it was clear they knew the content and they made it clear to me.

But now, teachers are given scripted lessons often written by companies far removed from the classroom. Admin observes to make sure students are actively engaged, which is often defined as participation in a group activity. That’s why you get gallery walks, cooperative projects, etc. If you “merely” lecture, you’re marked down.

We would benefit a lot from letting teachers teach again.

Lecture is not that useful of a learning tactic. It’s great in a collegiate sett No where you’re expected to spend hours outside of class learning.

Where do you think students learn how to follow a lecture? If it’s a great method for a collegiate setting, as you say, shouldn’t we be preparing them?

Endless gallery walks, charts, cooperative learning activities… they have their place. But let’s not pretend that they are the only signpost of a good lesson. I’ve seen plenty of group work assignments that have no clear objective, no clear outcome, no real value. And these assignments come directly from the county curriculum.

+1 Everyone in the group gets the same grade, regardless of their efforts and knowledge of the subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know where your kids go to school but my kids work much harder than I ever did. And they know much more than I ever did. There needs to be more chill and less stress

100% this. I was salutatorian and had all As when I graduated in the early 1990s. What my children are learning in school and the level of effort they have to put in runs circles around my education. And they are more stressed than I ever was.

Yes, this is a problem that started in the mid-80s and continues to this day. Graduated in the late 70s, had my kids late in life. Even with APs they didn’t do the level of work I had at a small school system. Calculus (MV) was the capstone math class for kids targeted for college and we did much more in our science classes. School offered robust vo-tech opportunities for students that wanted to pursue work in the trades.

Need to get back to instructional basics, demand and reward rigor and have multiple paths forward. Opportunity for all not equal outcomes for all.

You completely bulldozed their comment. Most kids today are working harder than when we were growing up.

DP. But working harder doesn’t mean they are learning more.

I teach AP classes. Yes, the students are always working hard; however, it takes much longer to for students to complete tasks than it used to.

Students today often lack resilience. When an assignment gets burdensome or challenging, they tend to shut down. I coax far more than I did 20 years ago.

I also receive 3-4 times the extension requests than I used to because there’s often an excuse why work can’t get done: I’m too busy, I have sports, I wasn’t in a good mood.

That honestly makes a lot of sense. If we are overburdening our students and they're constantly working, they will eventually perform worse and will not be able to turn things in. Have you considered that there is no proof that homework is actually beneficial to one's education? It makes sense In lower ages where we treat school as a way to form discipline, but there is no reason we have to work a high schooler to death to provide them a good education.

It isn’t just that we are overburdening our kids, they are also being preyed upon by digital content providers. It’s encouraging that they are beginning to stand up for themselves.

Agree, the PP is exhibiting bias. Seems far too many teachers stay in the profession out of a sadistic drive to mock kids. AP teacher just means you’ve churned through freshman level content on repeat for twenty years. The students have a mental hurdle to engage, your life is menial, so you lash out. Unfortunately, you are exactly like teachers of the past.

Never disappoint, DCUM.

Can you point out where I mocked children? What did I say comes across as sadistic?

We can have an honest discussion about what’s best for the students and how to sincerely, purposefully increase rigor OR we can lash out in unsubstantiated personal attacks. We can see which option you selected.

You’re here to say students today are less capable and more entitled than twenty years ago. I’m here as a parent of two successful college student despite any number of crappy teachers. If you tell me you’ve been teaching for decades just so you can berate your students, I’ll assume that’s a you problem. Sorry there are enough bad apples that you get lumped in unless proven otherwise. That’s the reality of an education degree.

+1, I’ve seen a lot of this bullying behavior and it’s so weird. I even had to put a teacher in line for saying other students in my son’s class are stupid- that’s the literal term used. There are many educators who seem obsessed with complaining that their kids aren’t perfect, which I respond- pick a new career; they never have been and never will be.

I started noticing this problem when my first graduated and his multi variable calculus teacher started complaining that standards were “collapsing.” I then asked him what math he did in high school: “pre calculus.” I agree that parents should take the responsibility of pushing their children to read more, but I’m tired of seeing people bicker about this invisible collapse of standards.

I do love all these parents essentially admitting their kids are completely stupid and not thinking critically that it is there responsibility to address that, not a teacher’s. Every parent wants harsh standards and the most difficult curriculum, until they realize their kid is at the bottom.

It's not reasonable to expect a parent to homeschool their kid in addition to working full time and dropping their kids to and from school and after school activities. It's also not reasonable to expect every kid kid to, after spending a full 8 hour shift at school, begin another full shift of actually learning via homeschooling.

If teachers don't want to or are unable to do their jobs to an appropriate standard, the very least they can do is inform parents that the As they're giving out are meaningless and not up to a college prep standard so well-meaning parents who think their children are doing well aren't blindsided when their kid flunks out of college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is taking AP Seminar this year and it's his first AP class. He's always been in H.English. Except he cannot write a cohesive essay. Not only that, but he doesn't even know the questions to ask himself in order to write the essay.

He had a big assignment due this week. He wasn't able to do it. I ended up creating templates for him to complete. We needed to do template A which fed to template B which fed to the actual assignment. Of course, this took much longer than the time allotted.

He worked hard and more importantly, I taught him some new skills that he can use in the future. We both wish that he had one more day so he could do a review of his draft, make edits, and turn in a more finished product. But a deadline is a deadline.

I was surprised that he really couldn't even get started on the assignment without me. Whatever grade he gets is fine. In this case, the grade is irrelevant. He needs to learn these skills. I would have thought that the critical thinking and analytical skills would have been taught in earlier grades. The scaffolding that I created for him seemed more like something I would have done in middle school back in the last century.

My sons experience mirrors what I see in my classes at UMD. My students understand the math concepts I teach but they cannot covey the information they learn in a written document. They cannot create a thesis statement, provide supporting information, do an analysis, and then summarize the information.

Other than doing it myself or getting a tutor for my son, I don't know what to do. This is a skill that requires practice and refinement over years. It's not being taught in his public schools (MS/HS). I understand why---it requires a lot of time and effort for a teacher to grade an essay and provide meaningful feedback. With 25+ kids in a class and multiple classes, that seems overwhelming for a teacher.

Classes has 25+ kids back in the last century as well, so that's not an excuse

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In order to reform education system, standardized test may be reinstated, but it barely touch the root issue.

High schools should stop GPA inflation, should provide rigorous grading and rigorous courses. Stop giving 20% of the class 4.0 GPAs. It's just insane. Straight As should be reserved for the truely gifted.

ECs should be done out of true passion. No gaming the system. Colleges should not consider high school research in admissions so that only kids with true passion will pursue it, not fake it.

High school counselors should verify a student's ECs before they send out the app.

High schools should encourage kids taking courses of highest rigor available to their schools, be it stem or humanities. Colleges should put a lot more weight on course rigor in admissions.

Be honest.

Sorry your child's school sucks. Maybe they need to attend a different school? If you feel their school is not rigorous, maybe you should move them? For my part, my child's school is excellent.

Have integrity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know where your kids go to school but my kids work much harder than I ever did. And they know much more than I ever did. There needs to be more chill and less stress

100% this. I was salutatorian and had all As when I graduated in the early 1990s. What my children are learning in school and the level of effort they have to put in runs circles around my education. And they are more stressed than I ever was.

Yes, this is a problem that started in the mid-80s and continues to this day. Graduated in the late 70s, had my kids late in life. Even with APs they didn’t do the level of work I had at a small school system. Calculus (MV) was the capstone math class for kids targeted for college and we did much more in our science classes. School offered robust vo-tech opportunities for students that wanted to pursue work in the trades.

Need to get back to instructional basics, demand and reward rigor and have multiple paths forward. Opportunity for all not equal outcomes for all.

You completely bulldozed their comment. Most kids today are working harder than when we were growing up.

DP. But working harder doesn’t mean they are learning more.

I teach AP classes. Yes, the students are always working hard; however, it takes much longer to for students to complete tasks than it used to.

Students today often lack resilience. When an assignment gets burdensome or challenging, they tend to shut down. I coax far more than I did 20 years ago.

I also receive 3-4 times the extension requests than I used to because there’s often an excuse why work can’t get done: I’m too busy, I have sports, I wasn’t in a good mood.

That honestly makes a lot of sense. If we are overburdening our students and they're constantly working, they will eventually perform worse and will not be able to turn things in. Have you considered that there is no proof that homework is actually beneficial to one's education? It makes sense In lower ages where we treat school as a way to form discipline, but there is no reason we have to work a high schooler to death to provide them a good education.

It isn’t just that we are overburdening our kids, they are also being preyed upon by digital content providers. It’s encouraging that they are beginning to stand up for themselves.

Agree, the PP is exhibiting bias. Seems far too many teachers stay in the profession out of a sadistic drive to mock kids. AP teacher just means you’ve churned through freshman level content on repeat for twenty years. The students have a mental hurdle to engage, your life is menial, so you lash out. Unfortunately, you are exactly like teachers of the past.

Never disappoint, DCUM.

Can you point out where I mocked children? What did I say comes across as sadistic?

We can have an honest discussion about what’s best for the students and how to sincerely, purposefully increase rigor OR we can lash out in unsubstantiated personal attacks. We can see which option you selected.

You’re here to say students today are less capable and more entitled than twenty years ago. I’m here as a parent of two successful college student despite any number of crappy teachers. If you tell me you’ve been teaching for decades just so you can berate your students, I’ll assume that’s a you problem. Sorry there are enough bad apples that you get lumped in unless proven otherwise. That’s the reality of an education degree.

So we aren’t having a serious discussion. Got it.

I just did the math. I’ve taught over 2,600 students. 3 schools. 2 counties.

You are a parent of 2 former students.

I have more experience and a wider view than you. We can agree on that, correct?

And I haven’t berated children. You know this, so it is pointless to pretend that I’ve said anything rude on this thread. I made one comment that claims, overall, students’ abilities in the classroom have declined over 20 years. And that’s true. I could point out assignments, work samples, etc. to quantifiably prove it. This doesn’t insult you, your children, or even my current students. It’s an insight made by somebody with a clear, sustained view of the problem: me.

Now we can ignore this problem, or we can address it. I’ve been addressing it. I’m on curricula committees, I present directly to my county’s board, etc.

Oh, and… I have multiple degrees and none are in Education. Nevertheless, I don’t appreciate your insult about Ed degrees. I work with many honest, hard-working, intelligent people with Ed degrees. You will not insult them to me without getting called out for it. Personal attacks are childish and useless. Bring adult behavior to adult conversations.

Not PP. So I’m curious. As a parent of kids in public schools, how can I help my kids be prepared? They are in higher level classes. We have always read. I’ve tried to teach them different executive function skills and study methods. [/quotes]
You need to teach your kids, i.e. homeschool. You can do this simultaneously with public school or in lieu of public school, but either way you are your child's teacher. The buck stops with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is taking AP Seminar this year and it's his first AP class. He's always been in H.English. Except he cannot write a cohesive essay. Not only that, but he doesn't even know the questions to ask himself in order to write the essay.

He had a big assignment due this week. He wasn't able to do it. I ended up creating templates for him to complete. We needed to do template A which fed to template B which fed to the actual assignment. Of course, this took much longer than the time allotted.

He worked hard and more importantly, I taught him some new skills that he can use in the future. We both wish that he had one more day so he could do a review of his draft, make edits, and turn in a more finished product. But a deadline is a deadline.

I was surprised that he really couldn't even get started on the assignment without me. Whatever grade he gets is fine. In this case, the grade is irrelevant. He needs to learn these skills. I would have thought that the critical thinking and analytical skills would have been taught in earlier grades. The scaffolding that I created for him seemed more like something I would have done in middle school back in the last century.

My sons experience mirrors what I see in my classes at UMD. My students understand the math concepts I teach but they cannot covey the information they learn in a written document. They cannot create a thesis statement, provide supporting information, do an analysis, and then summarize the information.

Other than doing it myself or getting a tutor for my son, I don't know what to do. This is a skill that requires practice and refinement over years. It's not being taught in his public schools (MS/HS). I understand why---it requires a lot of time and effort for a teacher to grade an essay and provide meaningful feedback. With 25+ kids in a class and multiple classes, that seems overwhelming for a teacher.

Classes has 25+ kids back in the last century as well, so that's not an excuse

DP. If only class size was the only thing that mattered!

Teachers have more classes now and fewer planning periods. If a teacher is lucky, they may get a whole 50 minutes at work to get all of their work done for 175 students. And all the added responsibilities (meetings, data, more data, meetings about data, IEP documentation, 504 documentation, meetings about IEPs and 504s, subbing responsibilities, lesson planning, team meetings, emails, more emails, hallway / parking duty, and everything else) that didn’t exist last century.

- teacher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is taking AP Seminar this year and it's his first AP class. He's always been in H.English. Except he cannot write a cohesive essay. Not only that, but he doesn't even know the questions to ask himself in order to write the essay.

He had a big assignment due this week. He wasn't able to do it. I ended up creating templates for him to complete. We needed to do template A which fed to template B which fed to the actual assignment. Of course, this took much longer than the time allotted.

He worked hard and more importantly, I taught him some new skills that he can use in the future. We both wish that he had one more day so he could do a review of his draft, make edits, and turn in a more finished product. But a deadline is a deadline.

I was surprised that he really couldn't even get started on the assignment without me. Whatever grade he gets is fine. In this case, the grade is irrelevant. He needs to learn these skills. I would have thought that the critical thinking and analytical skills would have been taught in earlier grades. The scaffolding that I created for him seemed more like something I would have done in middle school back in the last century.

My sons experience mirrors what I see in my classes at UMD. My students understand the math concepts I teach but they cannot covey the information they learn in a written document. They cannot create a thesis statement, provide supporting information, do an analysis, and then summarize the information.

Other than doing it myself or getting a tutor for my son, I don't know what to do. This is a skill that requires practice and refinement over years. It's not being taught in his public schools (MS/HS). I understand why---it requires a lot of time and effort for a teacher to grade an essay and provide meaningful feedback. With 25+ kids in a class and multiple classes, that seems overwhelming for a teacher.

Then by all means pat your own back harder. People are people, at most your students need something different today than twenty years ago, but you’re too busy playing observer to offer it. You tout experience but it sounds more like expiration date.

NP here and an educator in the public schools. The PP is correct; those skills are not being taught but should be.

Why aren't teachers, people whose job it is to teach these things, teaching these things?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People who complain about lack of rigor, often not always, are bemoaning that their kid isn’t differentiated enough to colleges. It’s not a high school’s purpose to differentiate enough to appease college admissions.

You do not want top scores to be impossible to achieve or rare. This guarantees they will be arbitrary and biased in qualitative courses with teachers selecting a few favorites. For quantitative courses deflationary curves are toxic to students. They motivate cheating and sabotage.

The purpose of a high school is to develop mastery of the course material, push learning, and develop skills. Students have a right to know what is expected to earn a top score and they should have equal access to materials to obtain it if they desire. This doesn’t mean it should be easy, far from it. It should require work but it should always be achievable.

No. I’m actually just annoyed that kids don’t know how to own their gerunds, or what the object of a preposition is. They aren’t assigned or taught great novels. Even kids who receive A’s in the highest level rigor English classes their school offers. Somehow math and science rigor seems to be ok. History is hit or miss. Foreign language is a complete joke at our HS.