Will RTO be relaxed ever?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. Long term fed here and I wouldn’t do it in OP’s circumstances. At my agency all RAs are essentially being denied. People who have cancer, heart conditions, other medical issues, and who have been teleworking with doctors orders are now being required to come in. Their legacy RAs are being cancelled or not renewed. Appeals denied. EEO counseling done by MAGA and DOGE. They are either defying agency orders relying on their sympathetic supervisors or job hunting.

This is very valid. If OP (or anyone else) thinks that getting or trying to get an RA is the answer, they are sorely mistaken.

If I were the hiring authority and had a choice between someone who said they would need an RA for TW to accept the job and other applicants who were willing to come in to office every day (due to agency rules) then I would hire the ones willing to follow Agency rules.

Even if OP takes job, then requests RA at a point in the future, they can still lose job. All agency has to do is say that the critical elements of the duties require full-time work from office. And that's not discrimination. If you can't do the duties as required (from the office) the agency can terminate you.

Things are far too tenuous at Federal agencies now for anyone to try and buck the system - supervisors put themselves at risk. Especially if it's a new hire. Everyone is aware of all the ways to try and circumvent rules about RTW.

If you want to play Russian roulette with your income in this current economic/job environment, go for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard OP. RTO for me meant a 90 minutes each way commute to a place I’d never worked before and turned my family’s life upside down.

It is very, very tough. While on one hand, yes I am physically able to get to the office and “work” each day, it is destroying my productivity and physical and mental health, affecting my relationships with my kids and family, and just making life absolutely miserable. But the people in charge now do not care about those things. They want us to be miserable and quit. Many of us are stuck between a rock and a hard place. My kids are teens; it would be devastating for them to have to pick up and move to a new area, and near impossible to find a good enough paying other job in this market.

So I do like many women have for thousands of years: put up with it, put my own physical and mental needs behind those of others, and just hope it will get better before I drop dead.

I’m also not sure it is worth it to stay in the fed workforce just because of the pension.
If I could, I would quit, move far away to lower COL area, and just start over in a new job, but that would really hurt my kids.

You think it doesn't impact men too? I don't get why women make it just about women.

Ok, so this is a parenting forum, and I am a mother. RTO impacts mothers especially. Remote work (zero commute) was the first time I ever had enough time and energy to give 100% at work and also be 100% of the mother I wanted to be and also had time to take care of myself. And I experienced much less anxiety while WFH and was able to really advance in my career, for the first time in my life.

I know there are exceptions but I am not seeing a lot of fathers who are as emotionally as devastated as mothers who had to RTO. I don’t even have little kids. I can’t imagine what it’s like being a parent of an infant with a 3 hour commute.

Remember this is not simply a return to the way things were before.

You hire help. It’s called childcare. Or, you live closer to your job.

My kids are teenagers. They don’t need childcare, but they do need a parent or adult in their life who is present and not a zombie. And I am not up rooting my teenagers and ruining their lives for some job that might fire me anyway. You can go right to hell.

So parents who work outside the home are zombies? Plenty of people commute to and from work every day. My commute is an hour each way. My DH is maybe 55 minutes each way. That’s about average for parents I know. I think you are overreacting.

IME basically no families with young kids have 2 parents working out of the home 5 days per week, especially with long commutes.

DH and I have both prioritized telework/flexible hours over chasing promotions. We have both been teleworking in some capacity since Obama 1.0 to make family life work.

Essentially everyone else I know is in this scenario of having at least one parent WAH, or they have one (or more) of the following: a SAH or part time working parent, local family help, or gobs of money to hire nannies/outsource. Or in the case of a teacher friend, she handles all school breaks / random days off and her husband takes the unexpected sick kid days off.

But you basically have to have some sort of adult on standby (either a parent, family member, or paid caregiver) while kids are young. I remember my kids’ preschool made us sign a contract that we could pickup within 1 hour if a kid got sick. No way we could do that while commuting over an hour each way.

And yeah, I do think someone who is commuting 3 hours per day, 5 days per week is going to have less energy to give to their kids. Zombie is an extreme word, but yeah, that lifestyle sounds draining unless it comes with a boatload of money to make other things easier.

Prior to 15 yrs ago, very few people worked remotely. Maybe your memory is short. There are also many jobs that cannot be done remotely. My kids are in college now but when they were little, everyone in my neighborhood commuted to work every day. That was the norm. If a kid got sick, me or my DH got in the car and picked them up. Ditto for everyone else. Very few families had SAHPs. It wasn’t financially feasible.

What is your point? 1000 years ago people raised kids without electricity. Does that mean we should we abolish lightbulbs?

[Anonymous]

Long commutes, long hours, no remote options and work travel and forced after work dinners and drinks are actually good for 90 percent of Moms with young kids.

Two reasons: first

1. 90 percent of jobs are crap. Low paid sit in cube dead end. So 90 percent of people working have a meaningless job with crap pay.
2. When my three kids were young 1, 5 and 7 I worked a in person job that was demanding and in return got $360k a year and wife stayed home and plenty of money. My wife had a cube level dead end job in a big bank and was more than happy to leave after 14 years of it.

Then Covid hit. I was laid off and all at once my same jobs now remote with tons of flexibility all we’re paying $160k to $170k a $200,000 a year paycut!! My wife could go back to work but she would barely make 100k so we are talking 260k we both work which is $100k less with tons of extra expenses and stress.

Luckily I found a place RTO in 2023 and after three years in pajamas sleeping in for peanuts got back to real pay again. Our stress went away and wife is happy.

in person a blessing 90 percent of Moms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Long commutes, long hours, no remote options and work travel and forced after work dinners and drinks are actually good for 90 percent of Moms with young kids.

Two reasons: first

1. 90 percent of jobs are crap. Low paid sit in cube dead end. So 90 percent of people working have a meaningless job with crap pay.
2. When my three kids were young 1, 5 and 7 I worked a in person job that was demanding and in return got $360k a year and wife stayed home and plenty of money. My wife had a cube level dead end job in a big bank and was more than happy to leave after 14 years of it.

Then Covid hit. I was laid off and all at once my same jobs now remote with tons of flexibility all we’re paying $160k to $170k a $200,000 a year paycut!! My wife could go back to work but she would barely make 100k so we are talking 260k we both work which is $100k less with tons of extra expenses and stress.

Luckily I found a place RTO in 2023 and after three years in pajamas sleeping in for peanuts got back to real pay again. Our stress went away and wife is happy.

in person a blessing 90 percent of Moms.

Your situation is not that common. I worked from home for 15 years...before and through Covid with flexible scheduling. Now I work in the office 5 days a week due the same pay (way less than 350k). DW has always needed to work. I do not know a single mom who considers in person a blessing.

[Anonymous]

I have zero sympathy for OP. NONE. It’s called life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard OP. RTO for me meant a 90 minutes each way commute to a place I’d never worked before and turned my family’s life upside down.

It is very, very tough. While on one hand, yes I am physically able to get to the office and “work” each day, it is destroying my productivity and physical and mental health, affecting my relationships with my kids and family, and just making life absolutely miserable. But the people in charge now do not care about those things. They want us to be miserable and quit. Many of us are stuck between a rock and a hard place. My kids are teens; it would be devastating for them to have to pick up and move to a new area, and near impossible to find a good enough paying other job in this market.

So I do like many women have for thousands of years: put up with it, put my own physical and mental needs behind those of others, and just hope it will get better before I drop dead.

I’m also not sure it is worth it to stay in the fed workforce just because of the pension.
If I could, I would quit, move far away to lower COL area, and just start over in a new job, but that would really hurt my kids.

You think it doesn't impact men too? I don't get why women make it just about women.

Ok, so this is a parenting forum, and I am a mother. RTO impacts mothers especially. Remote work (zero commute) was the first time I ever had enough time and energy to give 100% at work and also be 100% of the mother I wanted to be and also had time to take care of myself. And I experienced much less anxiety while WFH and was able to really advance in my career, for the first time in my life.

I know there are exceptions but I am not seeing a lot of fathers who are as emotionally as devastated as mothers who had to RTO. I don’t even have little kids. I can’t imagine what it’s like being a parent of an infant with a 3 hour commute.

Remember this is not simply a return to the way things were before.

You hire help. It’s called childcare. Or, you live closer to your job.

My kids are teenagers. They don’t need childcare, but they do need a parent or adult in their life who is present and not a zombie. And I am not up rooting my teenagers and ruining their lives for some job that might fire me anyway. You can go right to hell.

So parents who work outside the home are zombies? Plenty of people commute to and from work every day. My commute is an hour each way. My DH is maybe 55 minutes each way. That’s about average for parents I know. I think you are overreacting.

IME basically no families with young kids have 2 parents working out of the home 5 days per week, especially with long commutes.

DH and I have both prioritized telework/flexible hours over chasing promotions. We have both been teleworking in some capacity since Obama 1.0 to make family life work.

Essentially everyone else I know is in this scenario of having at least one parent WAH, or they have one (or more) of the following: a SAH or part time working parent, local family help, or gobs of money to hire nannies/outsource. Or in the case of a teacher friend, she handles all school breaks / random days off and her husband takes the unexpected sick kid days off.

But you basically have to have some sort of adult on standby (either a parent, family member, or paid caregiver) while kids are young. I remember my kids’ preschool made us sign a contract that we could pickup within 1 hour if a kid got sick. No way we could do that while commuting over an hour each way.

And yeah, I do think someone who is commuting 3 hours per day, 5 days per week is going to have less energy to give to their kids. Zombie is an extreme word, but yeah, that lifestyle sounds draining unless it comes with a boatload of money to make other things easier.

Prior to 15 yrs ago, very few people worked remotely. Maybe your memory is short. There are also many jobs that cannot be done remotely. My kids are in college now but when they were little, everyone in my neighborhood commuted to work every day. That was the norm. If a kid got sick, me or my DH got in the car and picked them up. Ditto for everyone else. Very few families had SAHPs. It wasn’t financially feasible.

Really depends on industry. Stop trying to re-write history. In 2000/2001 (more than 15 years ago) we were pushing code, remoting into servers, remember thin clients and dummy terminals? Anything that you didn't need to stand at the computer physically for, you could do on your laptop (and they were heavy, heavy bricks! Remember?). So remote has been a thing for a very long time and technical tools to support it have expanded exponentially.

So techie geeks worked remotely and the rest of us went to work in person. My son was born in 2005 and we still have dial up internet back then. I could log on and pull up a website with graphics, go and throw in a load of laundry, and the website would still be loading when I got back. Nobody I knew worked from home.

People need to stop complaining and make decisions. If it isn’t worth it to them to commute, find a remote job. Good luck with that though. Everyone I know who was fully remote is now back in person or hybrid.

[Anonymous]

Suck it up Buttercup!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Suck it up Buttercup!

A thought-terminating cliché (also known as a semantic stop-sign, a thought-stopper, bumper sticker logic, or cliché thinking) is a form of loaded language—often passing as folk wisdom—intended to end an argument and quell cognitive dissonance with a cliché rather than a point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have zero sympathy for OP. NONE. It’s called life.

you didn't actually read the OP, did you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Long commutes, long hours, no remote options and work travel and forced after work dinners and drinks are actually good for 90 percent of Moms with young kids.

Two reasons: first

1. 90 percent of jobs are crap. Low paid sit in cube dead end. So 90 percent of people working have a meaningless job with crap pay.
2. When my three kids were young 1, 5 and 7 I worked a in person job that was demanding and in return got $360k a year and wife stayed home and plenty of money. My wife had a cube level dead end job in a big bank and was more than happy to leave after 14 years of it.

Then Covid hit. I was laid off and all at once my same jobs now remote with tons of flexibility all we’re paying $160k to $170k a $200,000 a year paycut!! My wife could go back to work but she would barely make 100k so we are talking 260k we both work which is $100k less with tons of extra expenses and stress.

Luckily I found a place RTO in 2023 and after three years in pajamas sleeping in for peanuts got back to real pay again. Our stress went away and wife is happy.

in person a blessing 90 percent of Moms.

Your situation is not that common. I worked from home for 15 years...before and through Covid with flexible scheduling. Now I work in the office 5 days a week due the same pay (way less than 350k). DW has always needed to work. I do not know a single mom who considers in person a blessing.

But that is your failure not hers. Take a demanding job. They pay more. You should be in the 10 percent high paying jobs not the bottom 90 percent. you spouse should quit and throw a rock on your back to earn more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have zero sympathy for OP. NONE. It’s called life.

OP wasn’t asking for sympathy. This forum always makes me feel so sad for the state of the world. Complete a*holes who do not have an ounce of empathy and are completely incapable of understanding that everyone has their own set of circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Long commutes, long hours, no remote options and work travel and forced after work dinners and drinks are actually good for 90 percent of Moms with young kids.

Two reasons: first

1. 90 percent of jobs are crap. Low paid sit in cube dead end. So 90 percent of people working have a meaningless job with crap pay.
2. When my three kids were young 1, 5 and 7 I worked a in person job that was demanding and in return got $360k a year and wife stayed home and plenty of money. My wife had a cube level dead end job in a big bank and was more than happy to leave after 14 years of it.

Then Covid hit. I was laid off and all at once my same jobs now remote with tons of flexibility all we’re paying $160k to $170k a $200,000 a year paycut!! My wife could go back to work but she would barely make 100k so we are talking 260k we both work which is $100k less with tons of extra expenses and stress.

Luckily I found a place RTO in 2023 and after three years in pajamas sleeping in for peanuts got back to real pay again. Our stress went away and wife is happy.

in person a blessing 90 percent of Moms.

Your situation is not that common. I worked from home for 15 years...before and through Covid with flexible scheduling. Now I work in the office 5 days a week due the same pay (way less than 350k). DW has always needed to work. I do not know a single mom who considers in person a blessing.

But that is your failure not hers. Take a demanding job. They pay more. You should be in the 10 percent high paying jobs not the bottom 90 percent. you spouse should quit and throw a rock on your back to earn more.

Not all of us want our spouse to have to shoulder a demanding career and the financial responsibility by themselves. I like that my DH is around to handle sick days, early release, coaching little league at 5 PM, etc. Time and flexibility are luxuries in many ways that outweigh money. Also I don’t want to be the default caregiver, handle all the home stuff, etc. by myself. I want to use my higher education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard OP. RTO for me meant a 90 minutes each way commute to a place I’d never worked before and turned my family’s life upside down.

It is very, very tough. While on one hand, yes I am physically able to get to the office and “work” each day, it is destroying my productivity and physical and mental health, affecting my relationships with my kids and family, and just making life absolutely miserable. But the people in charge now do not care about those things. They want us to be miserable and quit. Many of us are stuck between a rock and a hard place. My kids are teens; it would be devastating for them to have to pick up and move to a new area, and near impossible to find a good enough paying other job in this market.

So I do like many women have for thousands of years: put up with it, put my own physical and mental needs behind those of others, and just hope it will get better before I drop dead.

I’m also not sure it is worth it to stay in the fed workforce just because of the pension.
If I could, I would quit, move far away to lower COL area, and just start over in a new job, but that would really hurt my kids.

You think it doesn't impact men too? I don't get why women make it just about women.

Ok, so this is a parenting forum, and I am a mother. RTO impacts mothers especially. Remote work (zero commute) was the first time I ever had enough time and energy to give 100% at work and also be 100% of the mother I wanted to be and also had time to take care of myself. And I experienced much less anxiety while WFH and was able to really advance in my career, for the first time in my life.

I know there are exceptions but I am not seeing a lot of fathers who are as emotionally as devastated as mothers who had to RTO. I don’t even have little kids. I can’t imagine what it’s like being a parent of an infant with a 3 hour commute.

Remember this is not simply a return to the way things were before.

You hire help. It’s called childcare. Or, you live closer to your job.

My kids are teenagers. They don’t need childcare, but they do need a parent or adult in their life who is present and not a zombie. And I am not up rooting my teenagers and ruining their lives for some job that might fire me anyway. You can go right to hell.

So parents who work outside the home are zombies? Plenty of people commute to and from work every day. My commute is an hour each way. My DH is maybe 55 minutes each way. That’s about average for parents I know. I think you are overreacting.

IME basically no families with young kids have 2 parents working out of the home 5 days per week, especially with long commutes.

DH and I have both prioritized telework/flexible hours over chasing promotions. We have both been teleworking in some capacity since Obama 1.0 to make family life work.

Essentially everyone else I know is in this scenario of having at least one parent WAH, or they have one (or more) of the following: a SAH or part time working parent, local family help, or gobs of money to hire nannies/outsource. Or in the case of a teacher friend, she handles all school breaks / random days off and her husband takes the unexpected sick kid days off.

But you basically have to have some sort of adult on standby (either a parent, family member, or paid caregiver) while kids are young. I remember my kids’ preschool made us sign a contract that we could pickup within 1 hour if a kid got sick. No way we could do that while commuting over an hour each way.

And yeah, I do think someone who is commuting 3 hours per day, 5 days per week is going to have less energy to give to their kids. Zombie is an extreme word, but yeah, that lifestyle sounds draining unless it comes with a boatload of money to make other things easier.

Prior to 15 yrs ago, very few people worked remotely. Maybe your memory is short. There are also many jobs that cannot be done remotely. My kids are in college now but when they were little, everyone in my neighborhood commuted to work every day. That was the norm. If a kid got sick, me or my DH got in the car and picked them up. Ditto for everyone else. Very few families had SAHPs. It wasn’t financially feasible.

Really depends on industry. Stop trying to re-write history. In 2000/2001 (more than 15 years ago) we were pushing code, remoting into servers, remember thin clients and dummy terminals? Anything that you didn't need to stand at the computer physically for, you could do on your laptop (and they were heavy, heavy bricks! Remember?). So remote has been a thing for a very long time and technical tools to support it have expanded exponentially.

So techie geeks worked remotely and the rest of us went to work in person. My son was born in 2005 and we still have dial up internet back then. I could log on and pull up a website with graphics, go and throw in a load of laundry, and the website would still be loading when I got back. Nobody I knew worked from home.

People need to stop complaining and make decisions. If it isn’t worth it to them to commute, find a remote job. Good luck with that though. Everyone I know who was fully remote is now back in person or hybrid.

I'm so embarrassed for you. You know the world has progressed, right? I'm not sure why you want to cling to an outdated time and work practice. But I have a tip for you! Use McAffee for all your anti-virus needs!

[Anonymous]

A few bad apples… Unfortunately many colleagues just didn’t do much work at home so it’s time to go back to the office. I really think people are making a bigger deal out of it that they should. Your employer sets the terms of your employment. If you don’t like them, look for another job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Long commutes, long hours, no remote options and work travel and forced after work dinners and drinks are actually good for 90 percent of Moms with young kids.

Two reasons: first

1. 90 percent of jobs are crap. Low paid sit in cube dead end. So 90 percent of people working have a meaningless job with crap pay.
2. When my three kids were young 1, 5 and 7 I worked a in person job that was demanding and in return got $360k a year and wife stayed home and plenty of money. My wife had a cube level dead end job in a big bank and was more than happy to leave after 14 years of it.

Then Covid hit. I was laid off and all at once my same jobs now remote with tons of flexibility all we’re paying $160k to $170k a $200,000 a year paycut!! My wife could go back to work but she would barely make 100k so we are talking 260k we both work which is $100k less with tons of extra expenses and stress.

Luckily I found a place RTO in 2023 and after three years in pajamas sleeping in for peanuts got back to real pay again. Our stress went away and wife is happy.

in person a blessing 90 percent of Moms.

Absolutely not. Remote work is a blessing for Moms. I was never able to make it work with kids and weird scheduled spouse before remote work became a thing, but suddenly I had the flexibility to earn a paycheck, albeit at a 50k "crap job". Now they want me schlep downtown daily. That's not quite what I signed up for, and it's only marginally worth it. I'm only still hanging on because I'm hopeful someone will come to their senses sooner or later.