NYT article on men struggling with their place in society

[Anonymous]

God I hate the NYT focus groups. They always make my head hurt and I feel dumber after reading quotes from dumb people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Mock men, and particularly cisgender white males, for believing the premise of the NYT article if you want.

But then consider the well-established facts which might lead these men to conclude they are being marginalized:

For example, read this Bloomberg article:

“The year after Black Lives Matter protests, the S&P 100 added more than 300,000 jobs — 94% went to people of color.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/


Think about that: 94%.

You cannot deny the facts.

This is exactly what people are talking about when they saying when you sit in a position of privilege equality feels like discrimination.

For 100 years 94% or more of the hires were white but one year only one stinking year that 94% was Hispanic Asian and black and you feel discriminated against over actions that happened for 12 months not 100 years.

And I made dad those jobs were in low level jobs not high-level senior jobs. We’re talking about Amazon warehouses.

Imagine the feeling if that was happening For 100 years.

SMFH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

No, that's not it. White men are hiring, but they are not hiring white people. You have convinced them that everyone-but-white people deserve their chance. So that's who they are hiring.

It's not a meritocracy. It's something else.

Wait, so you think it was a meritocracy when they hired their golf buddy or their neighbors nephew?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In theory I agree with DEI and I want to break down the old boys club.

But I can’t help but notice that so many diversity hires are incompetent and unqualified. I hate that I notice this.

I also can give credit to white males for a lot of modern day conveniences. The car, light bulb, airplane, iPhone, antibiotics, modern day plumbing etc weren’t invented in Africa.

Did you also notice how incompetent the hires were when dudes were hiring their golf buddies?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

The white population is shrinking percentage wise and the birth rate has dropped. Even after the DEI programs are cut, things will not be the same anymore.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-data-shows-the-nation-is-diversifying-even-faster-than-predicted/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

You think women help each other out in this way? I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

+1

Remember when Tina Fey randomly insulted Rob Schneider while discussing Jan Hooks’ career? And Rob pointed out that he owes all of his success to Adam Sandler, because Adam Sandler makes sure his buddies are taken care of… so if Tina Fey thought Jan Hooks was so great she could have easily made things happen for her. But for whatever reason she only cast her in a bit part in one of her hugely successful ventures. Yet Tina wants to point fingers at everyone else for Jam Hooks not being given more opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Men are being radicalized online. Oathkeepers recruiting hardcore online and going after kids- especially Boy Scouts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

The white population is shrinking percentage wise and the birth rate has dropped. Even after the DEI programs are cut, things will not be the same anymore.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-data-shows-the-nation-is-diversifying-even-faster-than-predicted/

Yes we hear your facts. Unfortunately humans don’t always hear or process facts. Or people like Trump lie and twist facts because they understand how people feel and then it’s easy to tell them lies. You can be right all day long and you’re still stuck with this idiot for a president because you’re dense.

[Anonymous]

This whole topic might be an American (& Canadian) phenomenon.

In the 1960s & 1970s the phrases “Battle of the sexes” & “the war between men and women” were commonly heard in the US. They often reflected the clash between feminists & traditional males.

I moved to Europe in the 1980s, & mentioned those terms a few times. Europeans had no idea what I was talking about, & thought it was very odd to think that men & women might have opposing interests. Anybody have a similar experience?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

The white population is shrinking percentage wise and the birth rate has dropped. Even after the DEI programs are cut, things will not be the same anymore.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-data-shows-the-nation-is-diversifying-even-faster-than-predicted/

Yes we hear your facts. Unfortunately humans don’t always hear or process facts. Or people like Trump lie and twist facts because they understand how people feel and then it’s easy to tell them lies. You can be right all day long and you’re still stuck with this idiot for a president because you’re dense.

Perhaps you aren’t aware that we have just survived 4 long years of JOE BIDEN at the helm. So you might want to reconsider the extent of your bashing of the next guy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

No, that's not it. White men are hiring, but they are not hiring white people. You have convinced them that everyone-but-white people deserve their chance. So that's who they are hiring.

It's not a meritocracy. It's something else.

This is how it's currently done in academia. White men hiring but only hiring people of color. Candidates often have to write a statement about how they will promote diversity in their work and teaching. It's going to weed out anyone who doesn't have "lived experience" and thar's probably the point. It's not really open to CIS white people though they can get adjunct/PT jobs.

I teach at a medical school in Omaha. White men are doing just fine here. And yet, they still voted for Trump.

There are maybe three non-white people in Nebraska, so that makes sense.

You've obviously never been to Nebraska. Ever hear of a group called "Native Americans." Of they don't count because they are red, not brown or black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

I agree with this.

I also found this article somewhat eye opening and a lot less offensive than I thought it would be, even though these guys are all just marinating in right wing media.

I think we have to acknowledge that men and boys are falling behind and then also be upfront that they will have to work hard and compete with their peers, and that includes girls. Until that's the message I'm not interested in investing a lot of time in this issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

The men I know who are struggling are worried about more serious things than the end of chivalry and dirty looks. They see that their lives are devalued because they are Black or Brown men.

A friend’s DH and 14 year old son were held at gunpoint by a store owner who forgot to lock the door and flip the sign that they were closed. She watched the whole thing from the car and was able to call 9-1-1. The police defused the situation, but laughed at the son for crying and wetting his pants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

The white population is shrinking percentage wise and the birth rate has dropped. Even after the DEI programs are cut, things will not be the same anymore.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-census-data-shows-the-nation-is-diversifying-even-faster-than-predicted/

Yes we hear your facts. Unfortunately humans don’t always hear or process facts. Or people like Trump lie and twist facts because they understand how people feel and then it’s easy to tell them lies. You can be right all day long and you’re still stuck with this idiot for a president because you’re dense.

Perhaps you aren’t aware that we have just survived 4 long years of JOE BIDEN at the helm. So you might want to reconsider the extent of your bashing of the next guy.

Historic job growth and economic growth.

Get ready to be taxed in ways you’ve never even imagined by Trump administration