VT ahead of WM in USNews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read a story on WTOP where they quoted the USNW people as saying they are favoring schools with strong STEM over general liberal arts education.

Maybe the above rationale explains why UVA is getting kicked out of top 25 this year.

It didn't. UVA moved up from 25 to 24. Here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

No, UVA is at 26.

It moved up to 24. read right here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Or down to 27. They are tied with three other schools.

Was there a glitch when you checked? It says UVa at #24 on the U.S. News website. It rose one spot compared with last year and is on same level as Wash U and Emory (supposedly). Let us know if site doesn't work for you.

But in reality there aren’t 4 schools ranked 24. There are 4 schools ranked 24-27. I’m not sure why 24 bs 27 in one ranking with questionable methodology matters. I do know UVA boosters are over the top. If you were 25 and became tied with 4 schools for 24 to 27, you stayed stable.

With all due respect, T=that's not how these rankings work. For example, Michigan and Georgetown are both ranked #22. Are you understanding -- this may be different from other rankings you have seen. Many schools tie and they get the same ranking, from top of the ranking to the bottom. Or are you not being serious?

Your example is wrong. Michigan is ranked ahead of Georgetown at #21. Georgetown is tied with UNC at #22.

Georgetown REQUIRES EVERYONE to submit scores. It also looks at AP exam scores. It requires an interview. The fact that the entire student body is included in the test score average (and not just only a portion of admits with high scores that falsely inflate the average) is very impressive that GU’s are that high.

It is self selecting because kids with bad test scores can’t apply test optional so it weeds out a ton of applicants with inflated GPAs and bad test scores from even applying.

It actually should be ranked much higher because its selectivity is lower than the 11% due to those factors.

We had zero Georgetown admits at our hugh school and 23 U Michigan admits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

I think the students are quite different academically (with the exception that the VT engineering students are similar to the academic profile of W&M students).

I disagree. At our high school, the top students applied to VT and only some of them got in. Most weren’t going for engineering.

Then they were going for what? CS? Business Information system?

VT has a 56% acceptance and a 26-32 ACT range, 3.8-4.28 GPA. **And that includes engineering and CS***. Arts and sciences does not give a separate acceptance rate from engineering and engineering/CS admit numbers are included in the GPA and ACT. The Arts and sciences info page says “a mixture of As and Bs” with “upper level” classes.

WM, even without engineering, is ACT 30-34, 4.18-4.5 GPA and has a 33% admit rate.

NOT the same students.

Ok, whatever makes you feel better. The fact remains, VT was far more sought after by top-stats kids than W&M. Don't know what to tell you.

The PP presented actual facts that show W&M attracts a significantly higher percentage of top-stats kids. You made the opposite claim without facts and claimed it as fact.

Sorry, I meant to add "far more sought after by top-stats kids AT OUR HIGH SCHOOL than W&M." Feel better now? At any rate, as another poster pointed out, there is a huge overlap in those stats. I'm not sure how you could possibly argue otherwise.

The overlap between Harvard stats and W&M stats is bigger than the overlap of W&M and VT stats. But I certainly wouldn't say there is a "huge overlap" between Harvard and W&M.

The delta between Harvard and W&M for SAT at 25th/50th/75th percentiles is 115, 90, and 60 points respectively. The delta between W&M and VT for SAT at 25th/50th/75th percentiles is 155, 130, and 100 points respectively.

DP. I couldn't get past your choice to compare Harvard and W&M. Wow...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

I think the students are quite different academically (with the exception that the VT engineering students are similar to the academic profile of W&M students).

I disagree. At our high school, the top students applied to VT and only some of them got in. Most weren’t going for engineering.

Then they were going for what? CS? Business Information system?

VT has a 56% acceptance and a 26-32 ACT range, 3.8-4.28 GPA. **And that includes engineering and CS***. Arts and sciences does not give a separate acceptance rate from engineering and engineering/CS admit numbers are included in the GPA and ACT. The Arts and sciences info page says “a mixture of As and Bs” with “upper level” classes.

WM, even without engineering, is ACT 30-34, 4.18-4.5 GPA and has a 33% admit rate.

NOT the same students.

Ok, whatever makes you feel better. The fact remains, VT was far more sought after by top-stats kids than W&M. Don't know what to tell you.

The PP presented actual facts that show W&M attracts a significantly higher percentage of top-stats kids. You made the opposite claim without facts and claimed it as fact.

Sorry, I meant to add "far more sought after by top-stats kids AT OUR HIGH SCHOOL than W&M." Feel better now? At any rate, as another poster pointed out, there is a huge overlap in those stats. I'm not sure how you could possibly argue otherwise.

There’s a very small overlap. Top 75% VT GPA is 4.28. Botton 25% WM is 4.12. That’s not a huge overlap. Take engineering out of the mix and there is no overlap. Your 4.1 GPA unhooked kid is not dmitted to WM and and easy admit to VT Arts & Sciences. Ditto your 32 ACT. Low chance at WM. Very high at VT.

Your omniscience certainly doesn't play IRL. Many of our top kids were flat-out rejected at VT, and again - not for engineering. But you know best!

So, your kids attend a crappy HS. It looks like everyone who was top half but not top 10-15% in our top 1/4 FCPS HS went to VT or JMU. Pretty much the same caliber kid, except for engineering. Some GMU mixed in. But the good but not greats went to those two schools in packs.

Not sure where you got that idea, but ok! They attend one of the regularly lauded, DCUM approved schools. But no matter - you're trying so very hard here, it's exhausting. I'm sorry you're upset about WM's diminished ranking.

[Anonymous]

OP, you ask: Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?


Why do you think these rankings have anything to do with either of these things? They quite clearly do not.

Take job opportunity. One measure of that might be earnings 10 years out. Santa Clara is ranked 60 this year, but is ranked 6 for salary 10 years out. Note Dame and WPI are identical for salary 10 years out, but USNWR has them at 20 and 82 this year, but they were 19 and 62 a few years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

I think the students are quite different academically (with the exception that the VT engineering students are similar to the academic profile of W&M students).

I disagree. At our high school, the top students applied to VT and only some of them got in. Most weren’t going for engineering.

Then they were going for what? CS? Business Information system?

VT has a 56% acceptance and a 26-32 ACT range, 3.8-4.28 GPA. **And that includes engineering and CS***. Arts and sciences does not give a separate acceptance rate from engineering and engineering/CS admit numbers are included in the GPA and ACT. The Arts and sciences info page says “a mixture of As and Bs” with “upper level” classes.

WM, even without engineering, is ACT 30-34, 4.18-4.5 GPA and has a 33% admit rate.

NOT the same students.

Ok, whatever makes you feel better. The fact remains, VT was far more sought after by top-stats kids than W&M. Don't know what to tell you.

The PP presented actual facts that show W&M attracts a significantly higher percentage of top-stats kids. You made the opposite claim without facts and claimed it as fact.

Sorry, I meant to add "far more sought after by top-stats kids AT OUR HIGH SCHOOL than W&M." Feel better now? At any rate, as another poster pointed out, there is a huge overlap in those stats. I'm not sure how you could possibly argue otherwise.

The overlap between Harvard stats and W&M stats is bigger than the overlap of W&M and VT stats. But I certainly wouldn't say there is a "huge overlap" between Harvard and W&M.

The delta between Harvard and W&M for SAT at 25th/50th/75th percentiles is 115, 90, and 60 points respectively. The delta between W&M and VT for SAT at 25th/50th/75th percentiles is 155, 130, and 100 points respectively.

DP. I couldn't get past your choice to compare Harvard and W&M. Wow...

You didn't really read what they wrote, did you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:W&M is ranked right where it should be. It’s been living on a reputation that is very out of date.

No highly ranked programs of note (compared to national level peers) and a poor overall student experience.

Not surprised by this this. Just wondering why it took so long.

A poor overall student experience? W&M is in the top 20 in Princeton review for "students love their colleges", top 3 among publics in graduation rate and tied for top for Pell recipients for 4 year graduation rate, top among public national universities for alumni giving rate (which has been shown to correlate with alumni satisfaction).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

I think the students are quite different academically (with the exception that the VT engineering students are similar to the academic profile of W&M students).

I disagree. At our high school, the top students applied to VT and only some of them got in. Most weren’t going for engineering.

Then they were going for what? CS? Business Information system?

VT has a 56% acceptance and a 26-32 ACT range, 3.8-4.28 GPA. **And that includes engineering and CS***. Arts and sciences does not give a separate acceptance rate from engineering and engineering/CS admit numbers are included in the GPA and ACT. The Arts and sciences info page says “a mixture of As and Bs” with “upper level” classes.

WM, even without engineering, is ACT 30-34, 4.18-4.5 GPA and has a 33% admit rate.

NOT the same students.

Ok, whatever makes you feel better. The fact remains, VT was far more sought after by top-stats kids than W&M. Don't know what to tell you.

The PP presented actual facts that show W&M attracts a significantly higher percentage of top-stats kids. You made the opposite claim without facts and claimed it as fact.

Sorry, I meant to add "far more sought after by top-stats kids AT OUR HIGH SCHOOL than W&M." Feel better now? At any rate, as another poster pointed out, there is a huge overlap in those stats. I'm not sure how you could possibly argue otherwise.

Which high school? Surely if you are being honesty you would have no issue naming the high school. The high schools are pretty big in NOVA. It’s not like you will be outed for telling the truth…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does this strike anyone else as off? VT is a fine institution that has certainly made great strides.

But, WM has a lower acceptance rate, more professors with PHD’s from top schools, smaller classes, higher proportion of students doing undergraduate research, and the most obvious indicator, WM students often head to Ivys and high tier consulting and govt jobs directly after college, while VT grads USUALLY head a bit lower. These are not close, btw, this is all by a decently significant margin.

Again, I don’t want to fall into the trap of giving too much credence to rankings, but what is the reason for this? Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?

Do you have any actual links to back up your claims? Any at all?

DP. The WSJ recently had a series of articles on this. Among publics, W&M graduate salaries ranked in the top 20 in five areas: Finance, Technology, Management Consulting, Marketing and Law. VT was in the top 20 in Management consulting only. In Management Consulting, W&M was #9 and VT #17.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-finance-jobs-e6742bb8?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-tech-58b1588c?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-management-consulting-589f15c9?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/stanford-berkeley-top-colleges-for-high-paying-jobs-in-law-457cc225?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-marketing-b0570aa3?mod=ig_collegepay

Do you have any sources regarding the quality of education at these schools?

USNWR has an undergraduate teaching ranking. W&M is #6.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching

Princeton Review has an academic rating and ratings for professor quality and accessibility.

https://www.princetonreview.com/college/william---mary-1022846#!academics
https://www.princetonreview.com/college/virginia-tech-1022823#!academics

[Anonymous]

This is sickness a stupid thread. UVA, William and Mary and Va Tech are all fantastic schools that appeal to different types of students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you ask: Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?


Why do you think these rankings have anything to do with either of these things? They quite clearly do not.

Take job opportunity. One measure of that might be earnings 10 years out. Santa Clara is ranked 60 this year, but is ranked 6 for salary 10 years out. Note Dame and WPI are identical for salary 10 years out, but USNWR has them at 20 and 82 this year, but they were 19 and 62 a few years ago.

What does VT passing W&M mean then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is sickness a stupid thread. UVA, William and Mary and Va Tech are all fantastic schools that appeal to different types of students.

They are complimentary schools, but on DCUM it all becomes a food fight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is sickness a stupid thread. UVA, William and Mary and Va Tech are all fantastic schools that appeal to different types of students.

They are complimentary schools, but on DCUM it all becomes a food fight.

^complementary schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does this strike anyone else as off? VT is a fine institution that has certainly made great strides.

But, WM has a lower acceptance rate, more professors with PHD’s from top schools, smaller classes, higher proportion of students doing undergraduate research, and the most obvious indicator, WM students often head to Ivys and high tier consulting and govt jobs directly after college, while VT grads USUALLY head a bit lower. These are not close, btw, this is all by a decently significant margin.

Again, I don’t want to fall into the trap of giving too much credence to rankings, but what is the reason for this? Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?

I don't agree with it, but USNews has pretty much removed all the criteria that favor William and Mary from their methodology. I don't see a lot the school can do in the short term to change things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does this strike anyone else as off? VT is a fine institution that has certainly made great strides.

But, WM has a lower acceptance rate, more professors with PHD’s from top schools, smaller classes, higher proportion of students doing undergraduate research, and the most obvious indicator, WM students often head to Ivys and high tier consulting and govt jobs directly after college, while VT grads USUALLY head a bit lower. These are not close, btw, this is all by a decently significant margin.

Again, I don’t want to fall into the trap of giving too much credence to rankings, but what is the reason for this? Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?

Do you have any actual links to back up your claims? Any at all?

No, I don’t, other than being a recent graduate with a ton of friends at both schools, as well as having explored the post grad outcomes pages on both their websites. I admit ancedotal evidence. But I am sure deep research would back my claims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read a story on WTOP where they quoted the USNW people as saying they are favoring schools with strong STEM over general liberal arts education.

Maybe the above rationale explains why UVA is getting kicked out of top 25 this year.

It didn't. UVA moved up from 25 to 24. Here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

No, UVA is at 26.

It moved up to 24. read right here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Or down to 27. They are tied with three other schools.

Was there a glitch when you checked? It says UVa at #24 on the U.S. News website. It rose one spot compared with last year and is on same level as Wash U and Emory (supposedly). Let us know if site doesn't work for you.

But in reality there aren’t 4 schools ranked 24. There are 4 schools ranked 24-27. I’m not sure why 24 bs 27 in one ranking with questionable methodology matters. I do know UVA boosters are over the top. If you were 25 and became tied with 4 schools for 24 to 27, you stayed stable.

With all due respect, T=that's not how these rankings work. For example, Michigan and Georgetown are both ranked #22. Are you understanding -- this may be different from other rankings you have seen. Many schools tie and they get the same ranking, from top of the ranking to the bottom. Or are you not being serious?

UVA is no 26 this year. Went down. Also went to no. 5 from no. 3.

Wrong. Why do you keep repeating this false information?

+1. UVA rose from 25 to 24.

UVA went down to 5 from 3 and went down to 26 from 25.