Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.

I just wrote the long post and basically said the same thing at the end.

This is it folks. If you are uptight enough to be dithering about this stuff, your kid will be fine.

As someone with older kids who were friends with ATS kids, I can say that this level of parental stress is not helping the kids in the long term. I'm not blaming ATS for its parents or saying that every kid's problem can be traced to their parents, but maybe parents who are obsessed with ATS and other highly structured schools could take a minute and reflect (if you're in ATS and your kid is happy, please move on because I'm not here to destroy anyone's joy):

What do you define as "success"? Sixth-grade test scores?

What's your definition of "high academic and behavioral standards"? What other achievements matter to you?

Do you have evidence that any of this will matter by the time your kid graduates from high school? What are you teaching your kid about your family's values and expectations? How much do you know about child development and education?

What was your own experience with school? How do you think it influenced who you are today? What do you know about the school experience of people you admire? Do you attribute all that to their elementary school?

Elementary school is important. Not learning to read well has catastrophic effects later in life. If a kid isn’t reading well by 4th grade, it’s hard to keep up with their peers.

I don’t blame parents for being angry. I think the whole community should be angry. Tons of tax dollars and a lot of kids with terrible reading skills.

Agree.
We shouldn't be waiting until 4th grade to determine kids can't read and it's a problem.

If you are unaware that your 4th grader can’t read, that’s a parenting failure.

(I’m not talking about people who DO know and are working to find a solution.)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.

Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?

Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?

You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?

More notably, ;just because you're poor doesn't mean you're NOT involved. Enough with this stuff. Schools can't control what the parents are going to do or are able to do. Let's focus on what schools can do regardless of the parents - because kids can succeed, period.

No one’s saying poor parents can’t be involved. ATS has low SES families that thrive.

(And FWIW, not everyone at TJHSST is wealthy either.)

But nobody bothers to point it out or acknowledge it much. It's far too common to refer to the lower achieving students' parents because they aren't able to provide the support and engagement. I'm just reminding people that a lot of lower income parents are highly involved in their kids' education. Yet, there are still those gaps, yes?

The whole point of this thread is that ATS demonstrates anyone can achieve regardless of race or SES.

Turning off the TV and reading to your kid costs zero dollars.

[Anonymous]

The exact difference is that parents who are aware of option/choice schools, choose to participate in an application process, and then choose to either bus or transport their kids to a school outside their neighborhood are also parents who value education and are engaged in their child’s school.

Lots of parents are engaged at other schools, but I would bet that engagement and support (with time and/or money) increased significantly at more affluent schools where parents are more likely to have money and time to spare. Opting in to an option school is one way to “buy” that engagement without giving up all socioeconomic and racial diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is enrolled in any Arlington County elementary school , your kid is going to be just fine. End of story.

That’s leaving a lot of people out. We should all care about these kids.

I have to remind my Republican family members that if they want fewer people on entitlements, they need to make sure everyone can read. And do math.

An educated work force makes all communities better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.

There are plenty of people trying to get in, there are not enough slots. We shouldn't have to be motivated to enter the lottery, this is how all the elementary schools should be ran.

What about those of us who are happy at our school, don’t agree with how ATS is run or don’t think it’s a good fit for our kid? I don’t want my Arlington elementary school to become ATS!

We have older elementary neighbors and friends whose kids go to APS, so I am not just basing my opinion off of DCUM threads and website copy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.

There are plenty of people trying to get in, there are not enough slots. We shouldn't have to be motivated to enter the lottery, this is how all the elementary schools should be ran.

What about those of us who are happy at our school, don’t agree with how ATS is run or don’t think it’s a good fit for our kid? I don’t want my Arlington elementary school to become ATS!

We have older elementary neighbors and friends whose kids go to APS, so I am not just basing my opinion off of DCUM threads and website copy.

Same- we toured ATS and found it ...robotic? I am so grateful we stuck with our neighborhood school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry. The only possible answer for ATS’s success is that really smart parents chose ATS. Closing the achievement gap forever remains a unicorn because poor kids don’t have involved parents. Let’s just stop trying and give everyone a trophy so they don’t feel bad about themselves and call it day.

OK. So let's make ATS employ the same rules and policies and curriculum and instructional methods as any other neighborhood school, especially like our "worst performing" ones. There should be absolutely no difference in outcomes at ATS, then, right? Cause the smart parents picking it is the only possible answer for its success.

Someone earlier said raise standards and expectations and let the chips fall where they may.

They used to do that, and it didn’t look so good when you compared different demographics.

I said that, and it wasn’t coming from a place of ambivalence for other people’s kids. My family has several public school teachers, including someone who taught at a Title 1 school with a free and reduced lunch population of 95 percent- higher than any APS school.

Yes different demographics will look different- in bad ways- no matter what the school does. I think most folks folks on this board just have different ideas of how this issue could be addressed by the schools, if at all. Keep in mind, the schools can’t do everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.

Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?

Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?

You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?

More notably, ;just because you're poor doesn't mean you're NOT involved. Enough with this stuff. Schools can't control what the parents are going to do or are able to do. Let's focus on what schools can do regardless of the parents - because kids can succeed, period.

No one’s saying poor parents can’t be involved. ATS has low SES families that thrive.

(And FWIW, not everyone at TJHSST is wealthy either.)

The ED families at ATS got there through the preschool program at ATS, so they have an educational foundation and parental commitment not all kids do.

If you want every neighborhood school to include preschool, great. I'm all for that. And I support it to the extent of thinking that if doing so means putting all the fifth graders in trailers, I'm fine with that, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.

There are plenty of people trying to get in, there are not enough slots. We shouldn't have to be motivated to enter the lottery, this is how all the elementary schools should be ran.

What about those of us who are happy at our school, don’t agree with how ATS is run or don’t think it’s a good fit for our kid? I don’t want my Arlington elementary school to become ATS!

We have older elementary neighbors and friends whose kids go to APS, so I am not just basing my opinion off of DCUM threads and website copy.

Same- we toured ATS and found it ...robotic? I am so grateful we stuck with our neighborhood school

Prime example of how not all parental involvement is the same.

These posters clearly care about their children’s education, or they wouldn’t be on here.

ATS families *are* a bit different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.

Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?

Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?

You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?

More notably, ;just because you're poor doesn't mean you're NOT involved. Enough with this stuff. Schools can't control what the parents are going to do or are able to do. Let's focus on what schools can do regardless of the parents - because kids can succeed, period.

No one’s saying poor parents can’t be involved. ATS has low SES families that thrive.

(And FWIW, not everyone at TJHSST is wealthy either.)

The ED families at ATS got there through the preschool program at ATS, so they have an educational foundation and parental commitment not all kids do.

If you want every neighborhood school to include preschool, great. I'm all for that. And I support it to the extent of thinking that if doing so means putting all the fifth graders in trailers, I'm fine with that, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is enrolled in any Arlington County elementary school , your kid is going to be just fine. End of story.

That’s leaving a lot of people out. We should all care about these kids.

I have to remind my Republican family members that if they want fewer people on entitlements, they need to make sure everyone can read. And do math.

An educated work force makes all communities better.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.

Sure but that can’t be only factor?

It’s the largest contributing factor. Like 90% of the pie.

OK. Clearly the ATS parents want the credit for their kids' and their school's success. So, yes, absolutely, it is entirely due to the parents who put in for the lottery and accept the slots. Entirely. Not 90%. Because without these specific fabulous parents being involved, the administration might implement instructional changes that they make the other neighborhood schools do. So, KUDOS to you parents!!!

Are you reading the same thread? ATS parents are saying other schools could do more of what ATS is doing. Parental involvement matters but parents are choosing ATS because what they are doing works. ATS deserves the credit and I don't blame parents for lining up to go to ATS. PP is right that parents put in what the school expects of them. It harder than ever in APS to know how your kid is doing. Schoolwork rarely sent home, homework packets depend on the school, grading is usually a cut and paste affair and you're not sure if the comments about "johnny" apply to your "Jenny". At least APS is finally figuring out how to teach kids to read but ATS was doing that for decades.

They claim ATS' success is 90% due to the self-selection by parents. That makes the parents responsible for the success.
I fully agree that APS should be making all of our ES more like ATS. But I'm tired of people crediting the bulk of its success on parents' selection. ATS works well for most students. Period. Not because their parents chose the program.

Does ATS have kids with a lot of unexcused absences?

Does ATS have parents who don’t EVER show up to parent-teacher conferences?

When a child is combative at ATS, what happens when that child’s parents shrug their shoulders?

Anyone care to answer these questions? Because this is the secret sauce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.

Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?

Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?

You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?

More notably, ;just because you're poor doesn't mean you're NOT involved. Enough with this stuff. Schools can't control what the parents are going to do or are able to do. Let's focus on what schools can do regardless of the parents - because kids can succeed, period.

No one’s saying poor parents can’t be involved. ATS has low SES families that thrive.

(And FWIW, not everyone at TJHSST is wealthy either.)

The ED families at ATS got there through the preschool program at ATS, so they have an educational foundation and parental commitment not all kids do.

If you want every neighborhood school to include preschool, great. I'm all for that. And I support it to the extent of thinking that if doing so means putting all the fifth graders in trailers, I'm fine with that, too.

What’s amazing is that ALL the FARMS population comes from the preschool VPI — based upon the numbers it looks like almost zero FARMS enter through the regular lottery in kindergarten.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry. The only possible answer for ATS’s success is that really smart parents chose ATS. Closing the achievement gap forever remains a unicorn because poor kids don’t have involved parents. Let’s just stop trying and give everyone a trophy so they don’t feel bad about themselves and call it day.

OK. So let's make ATS employ the same rules and policies and curriculum and instructional methods as any other neighborhood school, especially like our "worst performing" ones. There should be absolutely no difference in outcomes at ATS, then, right? Cause the smart parents picking it is the only possible answer for its success.

Someone earlier said raise standards and expectations and let the chips fall where they may.

They used to do that, and it didn’t look so good when you compared different demographics.

I said that, and it wasn’t coming from a place of ambivalence for other people’s kids. My family has several public school teachers, including someone who taught at a Title 1 school with a free and reduced lunch population of 95 percent- higher than any APS school.

Yes different demographics will look different- in bad ways- no matter what the school does. I think most folks folks on this board just have different ideas of how this issue could be addressed by the schools, if at all. Keep in mind, the schools can’t do everything.

Totally agree. But that’s a hard sell for a district whose main focus is equity.

So now we’re stuck with outside tutoring.

[Anonymous]

I think the demographics of ATS are somewhat unique. They probably have the highest % of Asian students out of any ES in Arlington (nearly 26%). When looking at the other choice options Montessori has an 11% Asian population, Claremont is 2.9%, Campbell is 8.4%.

I think that is likely a very different population than most neighborhood schools as well. The populations of the schools are demographically different. You can't ignore that.