Lancaster puppies...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t brevridge an ED for a decent sized non profit making 225K a year but I bet most purebred breeders make a tenth of that. They usually do one litter a year, and have to pay stud fees, vet bills, food for the mom, supplies for the pups, genetic testing, website hosting and maybe design, AKc registration fees. I really shout they clear more than 10K a litter. They are doing it because they like the dogs. That’s the real breeders.

I think there is a market for the old school backyard breeder like we had in the 20th century — like my great uncle who had hunting dogs, would let the best one get together with his buddies’ best dogs, then they’d each keep a pup and sell or give away the rest. No fancy registration or genetic testing just a couple of people who thought their dogs were great and wanted another one like it. The Amish seem to be filling that market gap but it’s totally unclear whether they have the same interests as the 20th century backyard breeder who really knew the temperment and health of the dogs involved. The old school backyard breeders were more like canine yentas — “such a match I have for you! So beautiful! Such a sweet personality! A strong back! And brings back the best ducks!”

you’re kidding yourself if you think they only have one litter a year. But let’s assume everything you said is correct, 10k is easy month for breeding dogs in your back yard or shed. You can work at the Same time, or not. Most dog breeders or not in your income bracket so an extra 10k a year is a lot. It’s easy money, at the detriment of the thousands of dogs being put down every day.

Luckily good breeders show their litters and the moms and the dads (assuming I can’t post with the word for mother dogs here) on their websites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t brevridge an ED for a decent sized non profit making 225K a year but I bet most purebred breeders make a tenth of that. They usually do one litter a year, and have to pay stud fees, vet bills, food for the mom, supplies for the pups, genetic testing, website hosting and maybe design, AKc registration fees. I really shout they clear more than 10K a litter. They are doing it because they like the dogs. That’s the real breeders.

I think there is a market for the old school backyard breeder like we had in the 20th century — like my great uncle who had hunting dogs, would let the best one get together with his buddies’ best dogs, then they’d each keep a pup and sell or give away the rest. No fancy registration or genetic testing just a couple of people who thought their dogs were great and wanted another one like it. The Amish seem to be filling that market gap but it’s totally unclear whether they have the same interests as the 20th century backyard breeder who really knew the temperment and health of the dogs involved. The old school backyard breeders were more like canine yentas — “such a match I have for you! So beautiful! Such a sweet personality! A strong back! And brings back the best ducks!”

you’re kidding yourself if you think they only have one litter a year. But let’s assume everything you said is correct, 10k is easy month for breeding dogs in your back yard or shed. You can work at the Same time, or not. Most dog breeders or not in your income bracket so an extra 10k a year is a lot. It’s easy money, at the detriment of the thousands of dogs being put down every day.

Even five litters a year is ok. Making over 225 for one employee is not a good nonprofit rescue.

The dog rescue business is the biggest racket going.

The rescue we adopted from (Greyhound Welfare) is 100% volunteer. No one receives a salary. The adoption fee through them is now $500, but it was $350 when we adopted in 2020. The rescue paid for the dog to undergo a physical exam, get neutered, be dewormed, given heart worm and flea and tick preventatives, and have his teeth cleaned. We received a collar, muzzle, and a week’s worth of kibble. The neutering alone was over $400, so we didn’t cover the rescue’s expenses associated with our dog.

Volunteers transported him for free. His volunteer foster family cared for him for two weeks before he was available for adoption. They provided valuable insight into his habits and quirks. The rescue also has volunteers who checked in with us frequently in the first year to answer questions and offer advice. All adopters are encouraged to join the rescue’s private forum, moderated by the president of the rescue organization, so we all have access to experienced owners and a wealth of information about greyhounds because the volunteers are so passionate about helping them.

Prior to the formation of a network of greyhound rescues, the racing industry here in the US destroyed tens of thousands of greyhounds every year (as many as 40,000 a year 30 years ago). When my dog was retired, he was given to Greyhound Welfare for free. No one profited off his transition from racer to pet and placement in a forever home.

So, you are indirectly supporting being abused for years….

What do you propose be done with retired greyhounds?

I propose they are not used for human entertainment in the first place.

Fortunately, most tracks have closed. FL’s greyhound racing ban went into effect at the end of 2020. There’s still greyhound racing in WV and one other state (maybe Iowa?), but I doubt they’ll last much longer. There’s a big push right now to ban racing in Ireland. Racing is still huge in Australia, though, so there’s still much progress to be made.

Galgos are basically Spanish greyhounds. Unfortunately, they are not viewed as pets in Spain. Every year, many are bred as hunting dogs. At the end of hunting season, a large number are killed in completely inhumane, horrific ways. They’re considered disposable. Galgo rescues have formed, and the rescued dogs are sent to other countries for adoption, so if you like greyhounds and they’re no longer available here once all US tracks are closed, you can consider a galgo.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are buying a puppy, not adopting one. I really hate that cutesy disingenuous statement from buyers & breeders.

I mean this sincerely: How is getting a puppy from a rescue an "adoption," and researching carefully and finding a puppy to preserve a breed somehow not also "adopting" a dog to be a member of your family?

Adopting a dog from a not for profit rescue organization usually involves paying a fee that covers a portion of the vetting they've done. The fee typically covers just a fraction of those costs and the organization does periodic fundraisers etc. to cover the rest. (Fees are sometimes waived for senior dogs, which are harder to place). When you adopt a dog from a shelter or rescue organization, you are giving a second chance to that dog which may have been abandoned, surrendered by their previous owners, or rescued from a situation of neglect or abuse. That makes room for another such dog in the rescue or shelter, who may otherwise have had to be euthanized. Adopting saves dogs' lives.

Buying a dog from a breeder or a pet shop involves paying for a product, namely a purebred dog (or a mix that is highly desirable to you). The breeder is in the business of producing that product and presumably profits from their sales.

Same/same.

Both adopters are paying for their dog. Both fees cover the expenses of caring for the dog or puppy.

The fact that one dog was in a bad situation doesn’t negate that both dogs are adopted into their new homes.

Incorrect.
Rescue orgs are generally non-profit. The adoption fees go into caring and rescuing other dogs. For example, a puppy at a rescue doesn't cost them $500, but that fee goes towards the surgery for the dog they just picked up that was hit by a car. That fee goes towards medications for the elderly dog that was abandoned because the owner cant afford medication. All of those fees go back into the rescue to help care for and save other dogs. For-profit organizations do not do this.

And I'm not anti-breeder. GOOD breeders are doing really good things. GOOD breeders are breeding health back into breeds like pugs/bostons/frenchies - dogs that have been so poorly bred that they can barely go for a walk without hyperventilating. Good breeders care for their animals, and have contracts to return the dog to them if you can no longer care for it. Good breeders are testing for medical issues and alerting you up front.

I do think there should be better resources for people to find the good breeders. I understand that a rescue isnt for everyone. But resorting to puppy mills and supporting animal cruelty is not the answer.

I agree with every word, and I’m the PP you replied to.

I still think in both situations the families are adopting a dog. I have two dogs from two responsible breeders who don’t advertise, but are found word of mouth through the show circuit.

I’m not sure where you disagree with me.

[PP]

You purchased a commodity, did not adopt. Your dog was born to put $$ in the breeders pocket. I think "adopt" should be saved for rescues. I think I got side tracked from the various posts rather than discussing the terminology. I'm glad you bought from a responsible breeder though! Now, pics?

Responsible breeders breed for the betterment of the breed—not to “put money in the breeders pocket.”

Responsible breeders aren’t the same as backyard breeders. Clearly you don’t know what you're talking about.

You can “think” all you want about the word adopt, but it isn’t reserved for rescues.

[PP]

Breeders are in the biz to better the breed AND make money. It's literally their job, how they support their families and pay their mortgage.

And, so are those rescues. They are often taking a salary to support their families and pay their mortgage. You think many of the rescues are doing it out of the goodness of their heart? Nope.

Uh yes. Have you met fosters or rescue volunteers? That's exactly what theyre doing. They have a pure love of animals and want to help them.

The head of the rescue usually gets a salary. If the rest of you want to volunteer, that's great but let's not pretend these rescues aren't charging money and getting donations are not a business with paid employees.

And, if you truly loved animals you'd adopt instead of fostering. Not fair to the dog to be bounced around constantly.

Wow that’s so rude! Fosters are such amazing people, how dare you say that.

Fosters are actual integral in the rehabilitation process. For orphaned puppies, going into a foster with another dog helps them learn ‘how to dog’. These are puppies that can have behavioral issues because they haven’t learnt basic social skills. That puppy gets some dog training and then goes on to its home. It’s not bad for every foster to adopt a dog, but their help is immensely helpful in rehabilitation and worthwhile to other pups by not <3

As a dog owner you need to socialize your dog. A puppy goes home at 8 weeks. You have to train everything

And what about when the dog's mom is hit by a car and leaves 10 puppies without food or water at 1 week old? Rescues will take them in, bottle feed them around the clock and care for them until they are old enough to go to a home.

Again, then they sell those puppies. It’s a business.

A for-profit business cannot have 501(c)(3) status.

Of course they can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t brevridge an ED for a decent sized non profit making 225K a year but I bet most purebred breeders make a tenth of that. They usually do one litter a year, and have to pay stud fees, vet bills, food for the mom, supplies for the pups, genetic testing, website hosting and maybe design, AKc registration fees. I really shout they clear more than 10K a litter. They are doing it because they like the dogs. That’s the real breeders.

I think there is a market for the old school backyard breeder like we had in the 20th century — like my great uncle who had hunting dogs, would let the best one get together with his buddies’ best dogs, then they’d each keep a pup and sell or give away the rest. No fancy registration or genetic testing just a couple of people who thought their dogs were great and wanted another one like it. The Amish seem to be filling that market gap but it’s totally unclear whether they have the same interests as the 20th century backyard breeder who really knew the temperment and health of the dogs involved. The old school backyard breeders were more like canine yentas — “such a match I have for you! So beautiful! Such a sweet personality! A strong back! And brings back the best ducks!”

you’re kidding yourself if you think they only have one litter a year. But let’s assume everything you said is correct, 10k is easy month for breeding dogs in your back yard or shed. You can work at the Same time, or not. Most dog breeders or not in your income bracket so an extra 10k a year is a lot. It’s easy money, at the detriment of the thousands of dogs being put down every day.

Even five litters a year is ok. Making over 225 for one employee is not a good nonprofit rescue.

The dog rescue business is the biggest racket going.

The rescue we adopted from (Greyhound Welfare) is 100% volunteer. No one receives a salary. The adoption fee through them is now $500, but it was $350 when we adopted in 2020. The rescue paid for the dog to undergo a physical exam, get neutered, be dewormed, given heart worm and flea and tick preventatives, and have his teeth cleaned. We received a collar, muzzle, and a week’s worth of kibble. The neutering alone was over $400, so we didn’t cover the rescue’s expenses associated with our dog.

Volunteers transported him for free. His volunteer foster family cared for him for two weeks before he was available for adoption. They provided valuable insight into his habits and quirks. The rescue also has volunteers who checked in with us frequently in the first year to answer questions and offer advice. All adopters are encouraged to join the rescue’s private forum, moderated by the president of the rescue organization, so we all have access to experienced owners and a wealth of information about greyhounds because the volunteers are so passionate about helping them.

Prior to the formation of a network of greyhound rescues, the racing industry here in the US destroyed tens of thousands of greyhounds every year (as many as 40,000 a year 30 years ago). When my dog was retired, he was given to Greyhound Welfare for free. No one profited off his transition from racer to pet and placement in a forever home.

So, you are indirectly supporting being abused for years….

That’s the most moronic thing I’ve heard today. Adopting a retired dog is not supporting his abuse any more than adopting an orphaned child is supporting him becoming an orphan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t brevridge an ED for a decent sized non profit making 225K a year but I bet most purebred breeders make a tenth of that. They usually do one litter a year, and have to pay stud fees, vet bills, food for the mom, supplies for the pups, genetic testing, website hosting and maybe design, AKc registration fees. I really shout they clear more than 10K a litter. They are doing it because they like the dogs. That’s the real breeders.

I think there is a market for the old school backyard breeder like we had in the 20th century — like my great uncle who had hunting dogs, would let the best one get together with his buddies’ best dogs, then they’d each keep a pup and sell or give away the rest. No fancy registration or genetic testing just a couple of people who thought their dogs were great and wanted another one like it. The Amish seem to be filling that market gap but it’s totally unclear whether they have the same interests as the 20th century backyard breeder who really knew the temperment and health of the dogs involved. The old school backyard breeders were more like canine yentas — “such a match I have for you! So beautiful! Such a sweet personality! A strong back! And brings back the best ducks!”

you’re kidding yourself if you think they only have one litter a year. But let’s assume everything you said is correct, 10k is easy month for breeding dogs in your back yard or shed. You can work at the Same time, or not. Most dog breeders or not in your income bracket so an extra 10k a year is a lot. It’s easy money, at the detriment of the thousands of dogs being put down every day.

Even five litters a year is ok. Making over 225 for one employee is not a good nonprofit rescue.

The dog rescue business is the biggest racket going.

The rescue we adopted from (Greyhound Welfare) is 100% volunteer. No one receives a salary. The adoption fee through them is now $500, but it was $350 when we adopted in 2020. The rescue paid for the dog to undergo a physical exam, get neutered, be dewormed, given heart worm and flea and tick preventatives, and have his teeth cleaned. We received a collar, muzzle, and a week’s worth of kibble. The neutering alone was over $400, so we didn’t cover the rescue’s expenses associated with our dog.

Volunteers transported him for free. His volunteer foster family cared for him for two weeks before he was available for adoption. They provided valuable insight into his habits and quirks. The rescue also has volunteers who checked in with us frequently in the first year to answer questions and offer advice. All adopters are encouraged to join the rescue’s private forum, moderated by the president of the rescue organization, so we all have access to experienced owners and a wealth of information about greyhounds because the volunteers are so passionate about helping them.

Prior to the formation of a network of greyhound rescues, the racing industry here in the US destroyed tens of thousands of greyhounds every year (as many as 40,000 a year 30 years ago). When my dog was retired, he was given to Greyhound Welfare for free. No one profited off his transition from racer to pet and placement in a forever home.

So, you are indirectly supporting being abused for years….

What do you propose be done with retired greyhounds?

I propose they are not used for human entertainment in the first place.

I agree with you, and for that matter I don't think that horses should race either. But here we are. Retired greyhounds exist. What do you propose be done with them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are buying a puppy, not adopting one. I really hate that cutesy disingenuous statement from buyers & breeders.

I mean this sincerely: How is getting a puppy from a rescue an "adoption," and researching carefully and finding a puppy to preserve a breed somehow not also "adopting" a dog to be a member of your family?

Adopting a dog from a not for profit rescue organization usually involves paying a fee that covers a portion of the vetting they've done. The fee typically covers just a fraction of those costs and the organization does periodic fundraisers etc. to cover the rest. (Fees are sometimes waived for senior dogs, which are harder to place). When you adopt a dog from a shelter or rescue organization, you are giving a second chance to that dog which may have been abandoned, surrendered by their previous owners, or rescued from a situation of neglect or abuse. That makes room for another such dog in the rescue or shelter, who may otherwise have had to be euthanized. Adopting saves dogs' lives.

Buying a dog from a breeder or a pet shop involves paying for a product, namely a purebred dog (or a mix that is highly desirable to you). The breeder is in the business of producing that product and presumably profits from their sales.

Same/same.

Both adopters are paying for their dog. Both fees cover the expenses of caring for the dog or puppy.

The fact that one dog was in a bad situation doesn’t negate that both dogs are adopted into their new homes.

Incorrect.
Rescue orgs are generally non-profit. The adoption fees go into caring and rescuing other dogs. For example, a puppy at a rescue doesn't cost them $500, but that fee goes towards the surgery for the dog they just picked up that was hit by a car. That fee goes towards medications for the elderly dog that was abandoned because the owner cant afford medication. All of those fees go back into the rescue to help care for and save other dogs. For-profit organizations do not do this.

And I'm not anti-breeder. GOOD breeders are doing really good things. GOOD breeders are breeding health back into breeds like pugs/bostons/frenchies - dogs that have been so poorly bred that they can barely go for a walk without hyperventilating. Good breeders care for their animals, and have contracts to return the dog to them if you can no longer care for it. Good breeders are testing for medical issues and alerting you up front.

I do think there should be better resources for people to find the good breeders. I understand that a rescue isnt for everyone. But resorting to puppy mills and supporting animal cruelty is not the answer.

I agree with every word, and I’m the PP you replied to.

I still think in both situations the families are adopting a dog. I have two dogs from two responsible breeders who don’t advertise, but are found word of mouth through the show circuit.

I’m not sure where you disagree with me.

[PP]

You purchased a commodity, did not adopt. Your dog was born to put $$ in the breeders pocket. I think "adopt" should be saved for rescues. I think I got side tracked from the various posts rather than discussing the terminology. I'm glad you bought from a responsible breeder though! Now, pics?

Responsible breeders breed for the betterment of the breed—not to “put money in the breeders pocket.”

Responsible breeders aren’t the same as backyard breeders. Clearly you don’t know what you're talking about.

You can “think” all you want about the word adopt, but it isn’t reserved for rescues.

[PP]

Breeders are in the biz to better the breed AND make money. It's literally their job, how they support their families and pay their mortgage.

And, so are those rescues. They are often taking a salary to support their families and pay their mortgage. You think many of the rescues are doing it out of the goodness of their heart? Nope.

Uh yes. Have you met fosters or rescue volunteers? That's exactly what theyre doing. They have a pure love of animals and want to help them.

The head of the rescue usually gets a salary. If the rest of you want to volunteer, that's great but let's not pretend these rescues aren't charging money and getting donations are not a business with paid employees.

And, if you truly loved animals you'd adopt instead of fostering. Not fair to the dog to be bounced around constantly.

Wow that’s so rude! Fosters are such amazing people, how dare you say that.

Fosters are actual integral in the rehabilitation process. For orphaned puppies, going into a foster with another dog helps them learn ‘how to dog’. These are puppies that can have behavioral issues because they haven’t learnt basic social skills. That puppy gets some dog training and then goes on to its home. It’s not bad for every foster to adopt a dog, but their help is immensely helpful in rehabilitation and worthwhile to other pups by not <3

As a dog owner you need to socialize your dog. A puppy goes home at 8 weeks. You have to train everything

And what about when the dog's mom is hit by a car and leaves 10 puppies without food or water at 1 week old? Rescues will take them in, bottle feed them around the clock and care for them until they are old enough to go to a home.

Again, then they sell those puppies. It’s a business.

A for-profit business cannot have 501(c)(3) status.

Of course they can.

You're just making up your own facts. In fact, a for-profit business cannot have that status.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are buying a puppy, not adopting one. I really hate that cutesy disingenuous statement from buyers & breeders.

I mean this sincerely: How is getting a puppy from a rescue an "adoption," and researching carefully and finding a puppy to preserve a breed somehow not also "adopting" a dog to be a member of your family?

Adopting a dog from a not for profit rescue organization usually involves paying a fee that covers a portion of the vetting they've done. The fee typically covers just a fraction of those costs and the organization does periodic fundraisers etc. to cover the rest. (Fees are sometimes waived for senior dogs, which are harder to place). When you adopt a dog from a shelter or rescue organization, you are giving a second chance to that dog which may have been abandoned, surrendered by their previous owners, or rescued from a situation of neglect or abuse. That makes room for another such dog in the rescue or shelter, who may otherwise have had to be euthanized. Adopting saves dogs' lives.

Buying a dog from a breeder or a pet shop involves paying for a product, namely a purebred dog (or a mix that is highly desirable to you). The breeder is in the business of producing that product and presumably profits from their sales.

Same/same.

Both adopters are paying for their dog. Both fees cover the expenses of caring for the dog or puppy.

The fact that one dog was in a bad situation doesn’t negate that both dogs are adopted into their new homes.

Incorrect.
Rescue orgs are generally non-profit. The adoption fees go into caring and rescuing other dogs. For example, a puppy at a rescue doesn't cost them $500, but that fee goes towards the surgery for the dog they just picked up that was hit by a car. That fee goes towards medications for the elderly dog that was abandoned because the owner cant afford medication. All of those fees go back into the rescue to help care for and save other dogs. For-profit organizations do not do this.

And I'm not anti-breeder. GOOD breeders are doing really good things. GOOD breeders are breeding health back into breeds like pugs/bostons/frenchies - dogs that have been so poorly bred that they can barely go for a walk without hyperventilating. Good breeders care for their animals, and have contracts to return the dog to them if you can no longer care for it. Good breeders are testing for medical issues and alerting you up front.

I do think there should be better resources for people to find the good breeders. I understand that a rescue isnt for everyone. But resorting to puppy mills and supporting animal cruelty is not the answer.

Again, they are no different from a breeder charging for services. Only difference is they get tax benefits and donations.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. They are taking in unwanted dogs, caring for them and giving them a good home. They aren't making a profit to buy a nice home, they are using that money to save more unwanted dogs. To me a for-profit business is not the same as a charity/non-profit.

I'm not familiar with the south and pit bulls (not sure if that was your post or not), so I cant really comment on that. The rescues I work with mainly deal with reserve dogs. There is a large trap neuter/spay return aspect for their owned animals who run free, so at least they aren't procreating, which helps.

Yet rescues still take the few decent non-pit dogs and put them out of reach for most would be pet owners. It’s basically just adding redundancy to the shelter system and it’s moronic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've always adopted from reputable breeders with registration and health clearances, so I've always been a little snobby about the Amish puppy farms. But I now have a couple of friends that adopted wonderful healthy dogs from them, and I've been looking for a cavapoo for particular reasons and it seems like basically all of the cavapoos are from these Amish breeders in PA/OH.

Does anyone have any experience? Any way to differentiate the better ones from the more sketchy ones? (Or alternatively, anyplace else to get a cavapoo in driving distance in the next 6 months or so?)

The Amish breeders are the most inhumane folks in the nation. If a litter does not sell, they’d kill them in their yard. Yes, they kill them not euthanize. It’s horrific! Be aware.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've always adopted from reputable breeders with registration and health clearances, so I've always been a little snobby about the Amish puppy farms. But I now have a couple of friends that adopted wonderful healthy dogs from them, and I've been looking for a cavapoo for particular reasons and it seems like basically all of the cavapoos are from these Amish breeders in PA/OH.

Does anyone have any experience? Any way to differentiate the better ones from the more sketchy ones? (Or alternatively, anyplace else to get a cavapoo in driving distance in the next 6 months or so?)

How old are those dogs that you call healthy? I have had two different large dogs - one a mutt, one a pure but uncommon breed - who lived till 15 and 16, respectively. Meanwhile I’ve yet to meet a senior doodle or retriever. They tend to die young (poor breeding), which is devastating.

[Anonymous]

I would only buy a dog from an AKC-registered breeder. That, or I would adopt/rescue.