Lancaster puppies...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m going to re-post my own comment from a different thread because I had Amish breeders in mind, specifically, when I wrote it:

I think people have the wrong image in their head when they hear “puppy mill.” They’re thinking of the worst of the worst: dogs confined to dirty crates all day long, unsocialized, strictly viewed as a commodity, possibly even malnourished or mistreated. There are plenty of puppy mills that treat their dogs kindly, keep them clean and fed, and even socialize them. They’re not animal abusers, but they are not following breeding best practices. They’re breeding whatever dogs they have — not dogs that exemplify the breed standard. They’re not doing health testing or they’re doing the bare minimum and counting on customers not to know the right questions to ask. They’re breeding dogs who are too closely related* and using the same few males to produce all their litters. They’re breeding females younger than they should be bred. They’re having females produce litters too close together for their bodies to recover fully and breeding them more times than is good for their health. Their puppies are clean and look adorable and the adult dogs really are their pets, so people think they’re good breeders, but they’re the ones producing the dogs who are most prone to cancer or heart problems or hip dysplasia. Sometimes you can get a perfectly lovely, healthy dog from them, but it’s purely by chance and not because of their expertise.

I will add that the Amish love their animals and generally don’t mistreat them, but make no mistake, they have a constant supply of puppies because it’s a form of income. I have visited a pet store in an Amish community in Ohio that has such a pipeline of puppies that every day of the year that they’re open, visitors can go cuddle a sample puppy from each of more than a dozen different breeds/mixes. Think about the kind of breeding required (in a closed community, no less!) to maintain a supply chain like this.

Two questions: what's with the asterisk? What's the problem with using the same few males to produce, assuming that the puppy contracts all say No breeding without our permission?

OP, I think this post summarizes Lancaster puppies and backyard breeders very well. They love their dogs, take good care of them, but are not responsible breeders and could be selling you a genetically sick puppy.

The asterisk was just a mistake. There are two problems with using the same male to father many litters; as a previous poster noted, you end up with lots of dogs related to each other and the male ends up breeding with some of his own offspring or their pups, but also, if you haven’t done adequate health testing on the sire and he has a genetic issue, he’s passing it on to many litters. Some of these breeders have one male poodle who sires every single one of their “doodle” litters.

I adopted a retired racing greyhound. Both of his grandsires were extremely successful racers and, as a result, they each sired over 4,000 offspring. One of these grandsires had Progressive Retinal Atrophy. A number of the male offspring who were whelped by the female offspring of this dog have inherited PRA, and my dog is one of them. He was completely blind by age 5 1/2 as a result. It’s tragic that one dog could pass on PRA to so many other dogs. Obviously, this is a different situation entirely from Amish breeders, but racing greyhounds are bred very selectively and every dog has an index score that indicates how many generations back his parents had a common ancestor. I can look up my dog’s pedigree going back 30 generations. Will an Amish breeder share their litters’ pedigrees going back even 3-4 generations?

You want to use a breeder who offers the akc certification. Ours gave us the paperwork and let us decide to register or not.

The AKC certification doesn't mean anything health-wise.

Dogs have to have testing to be certified and other stuff.

Not true. It's about lineage. That's it.

https://www.akc.org/press-center/articles-resources/puppy-buyer-fact-sheet/

https://pets.thenest.com/mean-dog-akc-certified-11647.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why genetic issues, akc papers, and lineage of the dog is more important to some of you than the welfare of the parents of the cute puppy you are purchasing?

Because I don't want my dog to have thousands of dollars in vet bills or die young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, just do the best you can. We bought from a goat farmer in Lancaster that was breeding their family dog with a friends. She only bred two litters and the dogs were raised in her front room. I liked that she had a different public facing business that made her seem legitimate and part of the community. Our dog is 2 and a dream and I don’t regret going this route at all.

You got sold a good story in addition to being sold a dog who was produced out of extreme cruelty.

DP. You don’t know that. It’s so easy to paint an entire region’s dog breeders with the same brush instead of recognizing that one may not be like the other.

Yes, I do know that. You saw good marketing for a very bad bad situation. I promise, this is not a good situation. Your dog's parents live in wire cages and have a miserable life. They are either killed when they stop breeding - or if they are lucky, they are allowed to go into rescue finally at the end of their lives. They are undersocialized dogs who never received enough medical care. They have had their spirits and bodies broken so these people could sell some dogs to naive outsiders who don't want to see behind the curtain.

Instead of getting defensive, please just don't do this again. Love your dog, and please learn. Don't buy dogs in Lancaster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why genetic issues, akc papers, and lineage of the dog is more important to some of you than the welfare of the parents of the cute puppy you are purchasing?

Because I don't want my dog to have thousands of dollars in vet bills or die young.

Then adopt a mutt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've always adopted from reputable breeders with registration and health clearances, so I've always been a little snobby about the Amish puppy farms. But I now have a couple of friends that adopted wonderful healthy dogs from them, and I've been looking for a cavapoo for particular reasons and it seems like basically all of the cavapoos are from these Amish breeders in PA/OH.

Does anyone have any experience? Any way to differentiate the better ones from the more sketchy ones? (Or alternatively, anyplace else to get a cavapoo in driving distance in the next 6 months or so?)

Is there some cavapoo emergency? Have you reached out to breeders and asked how long their waitlist is? https://www.oodlelife.com/cavapoo-breeders-in-virginia/ I completely support people who shop rather than adopt - I don’t know if rescues are eating the good dogs or what, but shelters are basically just pits - but be responsible and buy from decent breeders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, just do the best you can. We bought from a goat farmer in Lancaster that was breeding their family dog with a friends. She only bred two litters and the dogs were raised in her front room. I liked that she had a different public facing business that made her seem legitimate and part of the community. Our dog is 2 and a dream and I don’t regret going this route at all.

You got sold a good story in addition to being sold a dog who was produced out of extreme cruelty.

DP. You don’t know that. It’s so easy to paint an entire region’s dog breeders with the same brush instead of recognizing that one may not be like the other.

Yes, I do know that. You saw good marketing for a very bad bad situation. I promise, this is not a good situation. Your dog's parents live in wire cages and have a miserable life. They are either killed when they stop breeding - or if they are lucky, they are allowed to go into rescue finally at the end of their lives. They are undersocialized dogs who never received enough medical care. They have had their spirits and bodies broken so these people could sell some dogs to naive outsiders who don't want to see behind the curtain.

Instead of getting defensive, please just don't do this again. Love your dog, and please learn. Don't buy dogs in Lancaster.

I wouldn’t buy a dog there but am wondering if you are a vegetarian or vegan (like me.) if you aren’t, you really need to can it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, just do the best you can. We bought from a goat farmer in Lancaster that was breeding their family dog with a friends. She only bred two litters and the dogs were raised in her front room. I liked that she had a different public facing business that made her seem legitimate and part of the community. Our dog is 2 and a dream and I don’t regret going this route at all.

You got sold a good story in addition to being sold a dog who was produced out of extreme cruelty.

DP. You don’t know that. It’s so easy to paint an entire region’s dog breeders with the same brush instead of recognizing that one may not be like the other.

Yes, I do know that. You saw good marketing for a very bad bad situation. I promise, this is not a good situation. Your dog's parents live in wire cages and have a miserable life. They are either killed when they stop breeding - or if they are lucky, they are allowed to go into rescue finally at the end of their lives. They are undersocialized dogs who never received enough medical care. They have had their spirits and bodies broken so these people could sell some dogs to naive outsiders who don't want to see behind the curtain.

Instead of getting defensive, please just don't do this again. Love your dog, and please learn. Don't buy dogs in Lancaster.

I wouldn’t buy a dog there but am wondering if you are a vegetarian or vegan (like me.) if you aren’t, you really need to can it.

I am actually.. But also it's possible to advocate for kindness even if you aren't living a perfect life.

[Anonymous]

Pug from PA. Almost 7. Love her beyond measure. No issues other then pugnaciousness on walks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, just do the best you can. We bought from a goat farmer in Lancaster that was breeding their family dog with a friends. She only bred two litters and the dogs were raised in her front room. I liked that she had a different public facing business that made her seem legitimate and part of the community. Our dog is 2 and a dream and I don’t regret going this route at all.

You got sold a good story in addition to being sold a dog who was produced out of extreme cruelty.

DP. You don’t know that. It’s so easy to paint an entire region’s dog breeders with the same brush instead of recognizing that one may not be like the other.

Yes, I do know that. You saw good marketing for a very bad bad situation. I promise, this is not a good situation. Your dog's parents live in wire cages and have a miserable life. They are either killed when they stop breeding - or if they are lucky, they are allowed to go into rescue finally at the end of their lives. They are undersocialized dogs who never received enough medical care. They have had their spirits and bodies broken so these people could sell some dogs to naive outsiders who don't want to see behind the curtain.

Instead of getting defensive, please just don't do this again. Love your dog, and please learn. Don't buy dogs in Lancaster.

I wouldn’t buy a dog there but am wondering if you are a vegetarian or vegan (like me.) if you aren’t, you really need to can it.

I am actually.. But also it's possible to advocate for kindness even if you aren't living a perfect life.

Except it makes you(or rather anyone taking this stance who isn’t vegetarian) an egregious hypocrite people are apt to discount (and understandably so.)

[Anonymous]

Please do not get a dog from a puppy mill. The breeder dogs (my rescue maltipoo is one of them) suffer terribly. You are perpetuating a system of abuse and become part of the problem if you buy one of their dogs.

Rescue a dog. Or buy a toy/mini poodle or Cav King Charles from a reputable breeder. But do not support Amish puppy mills.

[Anonymous]

I would not get any kind of cavalier mix from a place like that. Cavaliers have a ton of genetic conditions, including a really devastating heart disease. Cavapoos get them too - "hybrid vigor" is BS. If you want a doodle, get a mini lab or Goldendoodle for health reasons or find a reputable breeder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, just do the best you can. We bought from a goat farmer in Lancaster that was breeding their family dog with a friends. She only bred two litters and the dogs were raised in her front room. I liked that she had a different public facing business that made her seem legitimate and part of the community. Our dog is 2 and a dream and I don’t regret going this route at all.

You got sold a good story in addition to being sold a dog who was produced out of extreme cruelty.

DP. You don’t know that. It’s so easy to paint an entire region’s dog breeders with the same brush instead of recognizing that one may not be like the other.

Yes, I do know that. You saw good marketing for a very bad bad situation. I promise, this is not a good situation. Your dog's parents live in wire cages and have a miserable life. They are either killed when they stop breeding - or if they are lucky, they are allowed to go into rescue finally at the end of their lives. They are undersocialized dogs who never received enough medical care. They have had their spirits and bodies broken so these people could sell some dogs to naive outsiders who don't want to see behind the curtain.

Instead of getting defensive, please just don't do this again. Love your dog, and please learn. Don't buy dogs in Lancaster.

I wouldn’t buy a dog there but am wondering if you are a vegetarian or vegan (like me.) if you aren’t, you really need to can it.

I am actually.. But also it's possible to advocate for kindness even if you aren't living a perfect life.

Except it makes you(or rather anyone taking this stance who isn’t vegetarian) an egregious hypocrite people are apt to discount (and understandably so.)

Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Even if people blithely eat meat from animals who were raised and slaughtered under cruel conditions, if those same people advocate for pets not to be mistreated, it’s unreasonable to call them hypocrites and act like they’re wrong when you also agree that pets shouldn’t be mistreated. People are complicated and everyone is right about some things and wrong about others. Why would you insult people who are advocating for the more humane position on the issue of puppy farms?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, just do the best you can. We bought from a goat farmer in Lancaster that was breeding their family dog with a friends. She only bred two litters and the dogs were raised in her front room. I liked that she had a different public facing business that made her seem legitimate and part of the community. Our dog is 2 and a dream and I don’t regret going this route at all.

You got sold a good story in addition to being sold a dog who was produced out of extreme cruelty.

DP. You don’t know that. It’s so easy to paint an entire region’s dog breeders with the same brush instead of recognizing that one may not be like the other.

Yes, I do know that. You saw good marketing for a very bad bad situation. I promise, this is not a good situation. Your dog's parents live in wire cages and have a miserable life. They are either killed when they stop breeding - or if they are lucky, they are allowed to go into rescue finally at the end of their lives. They are undersocialized dogs who never received enough medical care. They have had their spirits and bodies broken so these people could sell some dogs to naive outsiders who don't want to see behind the curtain.

Instead of getting defensive, please just don't do this again. Love your dog, and please learn. Don't buy dogs in Lancaster.

I wouldn’t buy a dog there but am wondering if you are a vegetarian or vegan (like me.) if you aren’t, you really need to can it.

I hope your pets are vegetarian too. Not fair to kill other animals for your animal by your logic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are buying a puppy, not adopting one. I really hate that cutesy disingenuous statement from buyers & breeders.

I mean this sincerely: How is getting a puppy from a rescue an "adoption," and researching carefully and finding a puppy to preserve a breed somehow not also "adopting" a dog to be a member of your family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are buying a puppy, not adopting one. I really hate that cutesy disingenuous statement from buyers & breeders.

I mean this sincerely: How is getting a puppy from a rescue an "adoption," and researching carefully and finding a puppy to preserve a breed somehow not also "adopting" a dog to be a member of your family?

Adopting a dog from a not for profit rescue organization usually involves paying a fee that covers a portion of the vetting they've done. The fee typically covers just a fraction of those costs and the organization does periodic fundraisers etc. to cover the rest. (Fees are sometimes waived for senior dogs, which are harder to place). When you adopt a dog from a shelter or rescue organization, you are giving a second chance to that dog which may have been abandoned, surrendered by their previous owners, or rescued from a situation of neglect or abuse. That makes room for another such dog in the rescue or shelter, who may otherwise have had to be euthanized. Adopting saves dogs' lives.

Buying a dog from a breeder or a pet shop involves paying for a product, namely a purebred dog (or a mix that is highly desirable to you). The breeder is in the business of producing that product and presumably profits from their sales.