NYU Prof fired because his class was too hard

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

Most of them are. That’s the thing about average.

Based on the current trend, you will not get an "average" doctor, You will get an incompetent doctor in about 8 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a PhD who has taught at major universities, I thought this story had something in it for everyone's grievances - whiny entitled Gen Z kids, snowplow parents, learning loss during Covid, college admissions with TO, universities designed for 'customer service' instead of learning, contingent faculty (he was on contract, e.g., adjunct.)

But for my money the fact that he's 84yo says it all. Even geniuses need to retire. Btw the end of mandatory retirement for professors is destroying academia. No one with tenure ever leaves. 50 years ago, 80% of faculty were tenure or tenure track. Today only 25% are. That means 3/4 of professors in the US have zero job security and really lousy pay and minimal or no benefits at all. And meanwhile tuition is stratospheric. Broken system.

If tuitions are stratospheric and most professors get lousy pay and minimal or no benefits at all, where did the money go?

We all know where it went - administrators. Cushy jobs largely composed of sitting around, great benefits, 6-figure salaries, impossible to fire, hiring based on nepotism ("networking"), impossible to track performance. Oh, also your kids get free/reduced tuition and a leg up during admissions.

College administration should be a degree path on its own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

Most of them are. That’s the thing about average.

Based on the current trend, you will not get an "average" doctor, You will get an incompetent doctor in about 8 years.

Based on the old trend, rich average white dudes, we currently have too many average doctors.

Now we have top students going to med school based on skills, not who they know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If smart kids are failing at a high rate you are not doing your job as a professor.

Sorry the free ride for average white makes is over. Welcome to the world the rest of us have to live in. Either do your job or get fired.

Why doesn’t this apply to the students? Their job is to study. It’s not the job of a college professor to pass students who won’t (or can’t) learn the material. “Meeting your students where they are” ends in high school. If you can’t do university level work, you shouldn’t be in a university. Unfortunately it seems “meeting the students where they are” in HS means we have an increasing number of kids who can’t do the work. The answer is not to dumb down the university. Maybe community college can fill the gap, but there are plenty of professions who need workers that don’t have college degrees.

Because if you have a problem with many you are the problem.

It’s organic chem not creative writing. Either your tests make sense or not. His test didn’t make sense and questions were written badly.

There are certain classes like calculus, chem, physics, … you either teach it or you don’t, tests are not subjective. It’s pedestrian to claim these classes are different at different institutions.

He wrote badly worded tests to prove he was hard sand he got caught not going his job, bye Felicia.

We’re you in his class? How do you know this? It was a minority of students who complained, and other students weighed in to defend him. As pp said, the professor taught at Princeton for decades and was “revered.” He literally wrote the textbook and created the modern method of teaching organic chemistry. Do you have evidence that he purposely made his tests confusing after years of teaching at NYU?

DP. He retired from a tenured position at Princeton about 10 years ago and then went to NYU on a year-to-year contract to teach a reduced schedule. And then right around the same time he felt students suddenly changed and just weren’t as bright and weren’t as willing to work hard. It is entirely possible that, in reality, he was slowing down cognitively as he got older, he wasn’t as sharp, and his teaching and test writing weren’t what they used to be. It makes sense since he perceived a shift in students right around the time he seemingly decided he couldn’t carry the load of a tenured professor anymore. I suspect it did not come out of the blue that his contract was non-renewed, and that NYU had been trying to counsel him through it for years because his name still carried prestige.

Students have changed though. All high school and college teachers/professors say that. Students don’t come to class as much and are not able to focus. They don’t have study skills and get overwhelmed easily

students have become snowflakes. The universities have created ‘coloring rooms’ for these 20 year olds to go sit and color in books. There is little resiliency. They have become entitled and feel like if they complain loud enough, they will get their way. The university should be ashamed. They handled this poorly.

Professors have been snowflakes for years.

They can’t be fired, TAs do all the teaching and work, they only care about research and we pay for their cushy life,

Sorry buddy you need to teach, no more coasting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone with a PhD who has taught at major universities, I thought this story had something in it for everyone's grievances - whiny entitled Gen Z kids, snowplow parents, learning loss during Covid, college admissions with TO, universities designed for 'customer service' instead of learning, contingent faculty (he was on contract, e.g., adjunct.)

But for my money the fact that he's 84yo says it all. Even geniuses need to retire. Btw the end of mandatory retirement for professors is destroying academia. No one with tenure ever leaves. 50 years ago, 80% of faculty were tenure or tenure track. Today only 25% are. That means 3/4 of professors in the US have zero job security and really lousy pay and minimal or no benefits at all. And meanwhile tuition is stratospheric. Broken system.

If tuitions are stratospheric and most professors get lousy pay and minimal or no benefits at all, where did the money go?

We all know where it went - administrators. Cushy jobs largely composed of sitting around, great benefits, 6-figure salaries, impossible to fire, hiring based on nepotism ("networking"), impossible to track performance. Oh, also your kids get free/reduced tuition and a leg up during admissions.

College administration should be a degree path on its own.

Don't forget tons of new construction to have fancier and fancier facilities to attract more "customers."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

Most of them are. That’s the thing about average.

Based on the current trend, you will not get an "average" doctor, You will get an incompetent doctor in about 8 years.

Based on the old trend, rich average white dudes, we currently have too many average doctors.

Now we have top students going to med school based on skills, not who they know.

PP, really curious what your profession is? You does not have a clue how one becomes a doctor in the old trend. I think you are confused medical schools with law schools/business schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

Most of them are. That’s the thing about average.

Based on the current trend, you will not get an "average" doctor, You will get an incompetent doctor in about 8 years.

Based on the old trend, rich average white dudes, we currently have too many average doctors.

Now we have top students going to med school based on skills, not who they know.

PP, really curious what your profession is? You does not have a clue how one becomes a doctor in the old trend. I think you are confused medical schools with law schools/business schools.

I’m an engineer making medical devices.

Doctors are not really smart people. They had parents willing to pay for med school, they were good at memorizing and taking tests, they are just “good students”.

If you are really sick you will not go to the doctor closest to your house. You will go to Hopkins, or medstar or md Anderson (if you are smart). Why because you know the good doctors end up there.

10% are amazing
10% more are great
10% more are pretty good most the time
The rest leave much to be desired.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

Most of them are. That’s the thing about average.

Based on the current trend, you will not get an "average" doctor, You will get an incompetent doctor in about 8 years.

Based on the old trend, rich average white dudes, we currently have too many average doctors.

Now we have top students going to med school based on skills, not who they know.

PP, really curious what your profession is? You does not have a clue how one becomes a doctor in the old trend. I think you are confused medical schools with law schools/business schools.

I’m an engineer making medical devices.

Doctors are not really smart people. They had parents willing to pay for med school, they were good at memorizing and taking tests, they are just “good students”.

If you are really sick you will not go to the doctor closest to your house. You will go to Hopkins, or medstar or md Anderson (if you are smart). Why because you know the good doctors end up there.

10% are amazing
10% more are great
10% more are pretty good most the time
The rest leave much to be desired.

What are the source of your "amazing" "great" "pretty good" doctor %s? ? You do not know a thing about MDs. Please do not make people laugh at you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If smart kids are failing at a high rate you are not doing your job as a professor.

Sorry the free ride for average white makes is over. Welcome to the world the rest of us have to live in. Either do your job or get fired.

Why doesn’t this apply to the students? Their job is to study. It’s not the job of a college professor to pass students who won’t (or can’t) learn the material. “Meeting your students where they are” ends in high school. If you can’t do university level work, you shouldn’t be in a university. Unfortunately it seems “meeting the students where they are” in HS means we have an increasing number of kids who can’t do the work. The answer is not to dumb down the university. Maybe community college can fill the gap, but there are plenty of professions who need workers that don’t have college degrees.

Because if you have a problem with many you are the problem.

It’s organic chem not creative writing. Either your tests make sense or not. His test didn’t make sense and questions were written badly.

There are certain classes like calculus, chem, physics, … you either teach it or you don’t, tests are not subjective. It’s pedestrian to claim these classes are different at different institutions.

He wrote badly worded tests to prove he was hard sand he got caught not going his job, bye Felicia.

We’re you in his class? How do you know this? It was a minority of students who complained, and other students weighed in to defend him. As pp said, the professor taught at Princeton for decades and was “revered.” He literally wrote the textbook and created the modern method of teaching organic chemistry. Do you have evidence that he purposely made his tests confusing after years of teaching at NYU?

DP. He retired from a tenured position at Princeton about 10 years ago and then went to NYU on a year-to-year contract to teach a reduced schedule. And then right around the same time he felt students suddenly changed and just weren’t as bright and weren’t as willing to work hard. It is entirely possible that, in reality, he was slowing down cognitively as he got older, he wasn’t as sharp, and his teaching and test writing weren’t what they used to be. It makes sense since he perceived a shift in students right around the time he seemingly decided he couldn’t carry the load of a tenured professor anymore. I suspect it did not come out of the blue that his contract was non-renewed, and that NYU had been trying to counsel him through it for years because his name still carried prestige.

Students have changed though. All high school and college teachers/professors say that. Students don’t come to class as much and are not able to focus. They don’t have study skills and get overwhelmed easily

students have become snowflakes. The universities have created ‘coloring rooms’ for these 20 year olds to go sit and color in books. There is little resiliency. They have become entitled and feel like if they complain loud enough, they will get their way. The university should be ashamed. They handled this poorly.

Professors have been snowflakes for years.

They can’t be fired, TAs do all the teaching and work, they only care about research and we pay for their cushy life,

Sorry buddy you need to teach, no more coasting.

Hi, Professor here! I spend about 75% of my time on teaching, use TAs for attendance and routine things but treat it like an internship: they are learning how to teach and I am there to mentor/help them (it's additional work for me on the whole). I make about 75K a year. Actually, a bit under that. I have over 6 years tenure track experience and am up for tenure next year.

While some long time professors in higher paying fields at more prestigious or state schools make well into the 6 figures and focus on research, there are plenty of us at teaching or masters or smaller institutions focusing on actual teaching, making the medium bucks, doing a good job, and loving our job because it is enriching and engaging. It is endlessly frustrating to see DCUM laud institution's where the experience is the former, and poo poo institutions where the experience is the later, which IMO, is more personal and tailored and rich for the average student. But please, tell me more about how my job works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:His rate my professor is pretty bad dating back to 2017. Even his high ratings say the TAs teach all the information or you have to teach yourself from the book,

His average is actually pretty middle of the road, but it’s interesting that the scores tend to be either 5 or 1. It looks like the bright students really enjoy his class and the ones who struggled really struggled. The kids who rated him 5 all said reading the textbook was key. The reviews actually back his argument that these kids don’t know how to study. They expect to be spoon fed.

Pre 2020

Professor Jones is very intelligent and definitely knows his materials. However, he's horrible at presenting the materials

Rated 4, you are forced to learn independently.

Super disorganized and poor at explaining concepts. Definitely would not recommend

Rated 5: he's not easy at all and can be a very obnoxious figure

average on every exam was a 55% and a 38% on the final.

Most of the learning takes place during the group problems with the TAs. The lectures are pretty tough to understand

Avoid. Half the class received C. Great lectures but tests are v. difficult; it's impossible to do all 10,000 provided practice q's that can pop up on them. Class test av. was 50. I had an A- with Mahal (she's great), did 2x the work for Jones and still did much worse. It's very hard to gauge if you understand material from the way he tests you.

Rated 3: Lectures aren't clear and tests are designed for you to do bad.

He is one of the rudest people I have ever met

If I cared, I would go through and cut and paste all the 5s that said he was brilliant and a great teacher & those that are complaining just didn’t do the work. There was also clearly an organized effort to post bad reviews when the letter was sent complaining about him, just judging by the timing and language of the complaints. But I really don’t want to waste my time because it’s clear you have some sort of weird obsession with college profs always being the one to blame when students fail.

[Anonymous]

It’s interesting that no one seems to have noted that NYU gave up the game when they let the kids withdraw from the class — the Dean “said the plan would “extend a gentle but firm hand to the students and those who pay the tuition bills,” an apparent reference to parents.”

In ither words, they don’t want to upset their “customers.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

[Anonymous]

I'm not surprised. Life in general seems to be too damn hard for many people today. It's kind of pitiful actually. Good luck to the people of this country in 20 years when this generation is in charge lol.

[Anonymous]

Scratch NYU off the list

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

Maybe if he formed the class information into a tik Tok video more students would watch and learn something. Did anyone think that kids that grew with the attention span of a gnat, having everything made easier for them, never having to work hard or REALLY put any effort in, had excuses made for them at every turn (can't read print? don't know how to study? lol), would be able to succeed in a hard class. They are waiting for someone to make it easier for them and they want to become doctors? Does anyone see the irony or how ridiculous this is?