NYU Prof fired because his class was too hard

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

This guy literally wrote the textbook and had always received good reviews before. I think he was targeted became we he refused to try to make the students feel better about their lack of effort. From the article:

In the field of organic chemistry, Maitland Jones Jr. has a storied reputation. He taught the subject for decades, first at Princeton and then at New York University, and wrote an influential textbook. He received awards for his teaching, as well as recognition as one of N.Y.U.’s coolest professors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

[Anonymous]

I do not know this specific situation, but I have some experience with academics and IME universities like to have professors with "hard" reputations. Nobody gets fired just because their class is too hard. I suspect there is something else going on here -- either inappropriate behavior or comments on his part, cost cutting by the university, or he was a PITA for the administration to deal with so they took this excuse to be rid of him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do not know this specific situation, but I have some experience with academics and IME universities like to have professors with "hard" reputations. Nobody gets fired just because their class is too hard. I suspect there is something else going on here -- either inappropriate behavior or comments on his part, cost cutting by the university, or he was a PITA for the administration to deal with so they took this excuse to be rid of him.

That was my thought too. There is no way this was the only reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

Weird that you think an aging human doesn't become less engaging, coherent, patient, or interesting over decades of teaching the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

It's possible, but we had an experienced professor when I was in school who taught and then had every single student fail the standardized university exam (it was a language class). The same students passed the exam after another course with a different teacher (and being exposed to the material twice, obviously), sometimes these things happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

+1

What you think it happening in colleges AND in society in general.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

Weird that you think an aging human doesn't become less engaging, coherent, patient, or interesting over decades of teaching the same thing.

Interesting that you’re making up allegations that weren’t made. Ageist much? It did sound like he wasn’t very patient with students who didn’t even try to utilize the resources they were given, but I don’t blame him. Maybe being older = remembers when students were actually expected to do the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

Weird that you think an aging human doesn't become less engaging, coherent, patient, or interesting over decades of teaching the same thing.

Thanks for my daily dose of DCUM ageism.

No way a professor was fired for this. Academia is brutally political. Betting he pissed off a few people.

[Anonymous]

Professors, even experienced ones who have been excellent in the past, can certainly be terrible. I’m struck, though, by the complaint being that the students were putting in effort and not getting good grades. It’s a hard class and med school, the goal of many of them, is also really hard. Some people, despite putting lots of time, simply can’t do well. also, I believe his co-teacher said they could tell students often weren’t watching lectures or doing tutorials. If that’s the case those students need to grow up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

Weird that you think an aging human doesn't become less engaging, coherent, patient, or interesting over decades of teaching the same thing.

Interesting that you’re making up allegations that weren’t made. Ageist much? It did sound like he wasn’t very patient with students who didn’t even try to utilize the resources they were given, but I don’t blame him. Maybe being older = remembers when students were actually expected to do the work.

Are you the person I was responding to? Because the person I was responding to wrote "giving the same tests he has given for decades ... Nothing has changed but the students."
The latter part -- that nothing has changed -- is not true because the individual teacher does change over decades of doing the same thing over and over. Anyone would, regardless of age: I'm not the same person I was decades ago either. But since you bring it up, yes, aging can affect someone's performance: this professor is currently 84, which is well past the age some people (not all people, but some and maybe most) experience personality changes due to age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

It's possible, but we had an experienced professor when I was in school who taught and then had every single student fail the standardized university exam (it was a language class). The same students passed the exam after another course with a different teacher (and being exposed to the material twice, obviously), sometimes these things happen.

You mean, after they took the course twice, they passed? Not a very useful example.

The article says many students wrote letters defending the professor. The complaints seem to be from those who are mad that he didn’t make them feel better about failing.

Zacharia Benslimane, a teaching assistant in the problem-solving section of the course, defended Dr. Jones in an email to university officials.

“I think this petition was written more out of unhappiness with exam scores than an actual feeling of being treated unfairly,” wrote Mr. Benslimane, now a Ph.D. student at Harvard. “I have noticed that many of the students who consistently complained about the class did not use the resources we afforded to them.”

Ryan Xue, who took the course, said he found Dr. Jones both likable and inspiring.

“This is a big lecture course, and it also has the reputation of being a weed-out class,” said Mr. Xue, who has transferred and is now a junior at Brown. “So there are people who will not get the best grades. Some of the comments might have been very heavily influenced by what grade students have gotten.”

Other students, though, seemed shellshocked from the experience. In interviews, several of them said that Dr. Jones was keen to help students who asked questions, but that he could also be sarcastic and downbeat about the class’s poor performance.

[Anonymous]

I knew a guy in college who got a bad grade in an Econ class, and blamed the teacher for everything. I got a B. To be fair, it was a hard class, but it wasn't *that* hard. I'm just above average intelligence. I don't think that guy ever really studied, but obviously it's easier to blame the teacher than yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of one of my classes. None of the questions in the tests matched what was covered in the lectures or textbook. It was the most interesting class but grade wise it was the worst. To this day I remember her lectures, she was brilliant. And a terrible test writer.

It's definitely possible that this is what's happening, just like it's possible that the kids are complaining about tests that are appropriately difficult. It's really hard to say without having taken the class and taken the exams, so it becomes this Rorschach test that reveals whatever you already think about what's happening in colleges, but nothing else.

I’ve had experience with new teachers who haven’t yet calibrated their tests and give tests that almost no one can pass. In this case, it’s a professor who is giving the same tests he has given for decades (and allegedly tried to make them easier). Nothing has changed but the students.

It's possible, but we had an experienced professor when I was in school who taught and then had every single student fail the standardized university exam (it was a language class). The same students passed the exam after another course with a different teacher (and being exposed to the material twice, obviously), sometimes these things happen.

You mean, after they took the course twice, they passed? Not a very useful example.

The article says many students wrote letters defending the professor. The complaints seem to be from those who are mad that he didn’t make them feel better about failing.

Zacharia Benslimane, a teaching assistant in the problem-solving section of the course, defended Dr. Jones in an email to university officials.

“I think this petition was written more out of unhappiness with exam scores than an actual feeling of being treated unfairly,” wrote Mr. Benslimane, now a Ph.D. student at Harvard. “I have noticed that many of the students who consistently complained about the class did not use the resources we afforded to them.”

Ryan Xue, who took the course, said he found Dr. Jones both likable and inspiring.

“This is a big lecture course, and it also has the reputation of being a weed-out class,” said Mr. Xue, who has transferred and is now a junior at Brown. “So there are people who will not get the best grades. Some of the comments might have been very heavily influenced by what grade students have gotten.”

Other students, though, seemed shellshocked from the experience. In interviews, several of them said that Dr. Jones was keen to help students who asked questions, but that he could also be sarcastic and downbeat about the class’s poor performance.

My 9th grader has a sarcastic teacher who bemoans the performance of the class. Yes, she sucks, but the fact is (and what my 14 year is learning) that some people suck and the thing to do is figure out how to do your best despite it.