Why are teachers and nurses underpaid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

It's a trade off. Teaching is an entry level position. Many folks do it for a few years and then move on. Entry level positions are going to have lower salaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

It's a trade off. Teaching is an entry level position. Many folks do it for a few years and then move on. Entry level positions are going to have lower salaries.

You don't think there is value to keeping experienced teachers around?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

It's a trade off. Teaching is an entry level position. Many folks do it for a few years and then move on. Entry level positions are going to have lower salaries.

You don't think there is value to keeping experienced teachers around?

Of course there's some value, so there should be career development and pay increases. But, a classroom teacher is going to find their salary capped at some level. It's the same for beat cops and firefighters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember zoom school. The 2nd teacher, aged 27, had tons of misspellings and math errors whilst teaching. I viewed them as a slacker who just wanted a sleeper job. Not like kids are going to do anything, or the school. Schools keep poorly performing teachers all the time.

They ended up quitting to live abroad doing peace corp or something similar. Left in the middle of the school year as well. Very professional.

My question to you and the PP is how do we attract and retain those you would consider to be higher quality teachers?

Not the PP, but another teacher. I am comfortable saying I work with some serious slackers. I've watched colleagues plan their lessons 2 minutes before classes arrive, which means they usually resort to Youtube videos and a lot of down time. I've watched colleagues not teach at all, not grade at all, etc. Here's the problem as I see it: many of these teachers are the ones who are staying. Administrators don't fire these teachers, and these teachers care so little that they aren't intimidated by the idea of additional observations, write-ups. At the very worst, they'll get moved from school to school by principals who find transfering teachers easier than firing them. Their pay remains the same.

Strong teachers are the ones working hard and burning out. They are trying to mentor younger teachers while simultenously holding down their own responsibiltiies, which seem to grow every year to impossible heights. They take on higher courseloads as parents demand having their children transferred to the stronger teacher's class. I've watched scores of strong teachers leave my school in the past 5 years, and I'm thinking of following. We can only "do it for the kids" for so long because we are sacrificing our own mental health and our own families.

These are the teachers you need to target and keep. How? I'd say you first need to hold the inadequate teachers accountable, document their inability to do the job, and let them go. The problem is there is nobody left to replace them, so they have a ton of job security right now and they know it. Therefore, increase pay and improve working conditions to create more interest in the profession. That will make me stay, but it will also create an influx of new teachers. I'm happy giving up my newfound job security caused by the current teacher shortage. I know I'm not at risk of being fired.

Not a teacher, but married to one. He's in year 25 and I'm hoping he gets out soon. I make enough for him to retire early and I wish he would. His school would rather throw warm, dumb bodies at problems instead of paying for more people like him who have the experience to actually improve the current state of affairs. In the meantime, he gets to clean up every problem the school creates for itself. The only reason he hasn't left is the handful of kids who make the job worthwhile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

The question here isn't about the teacher shortage; it's about teacher pay. If you think you are underpaid and could do better as a lawyer, then go to law school.

For the record, I'm a teacher married to a lawyer, and wouldn't trade places for anything. I have the better deal in terms of pay and quality of life. (Teachers on this thread who claim they work 50+ hours a week are either lying or are martyrs by choice. The work is simply not that demanding.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

It's a trade off. Teaching is an entry level position. Many folks do it for a few years and then move on. Entry level positions are going to have lower salaries.

You don't think there is value to keeping experienced teachers around?

Of course there's some value, so there should be career development and pay increases. But, a classroom teacher is going to find their salary capped at some level. It's the same for beat cops and firefighters.

My cop brother made $150k last year thanks to generous overtime. I think his base was something like $110k. He's 43.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

The question here isn't about the teacher shortage; it's about teacher pay. If you think you are underpaid and could do better as a lawyer, then go to law school.

For the record, I'm a teacher married to a lawyer, and wouldn't trade places for anything. I have the better deal in terms of pay and quality of life. (Teachers on this thread who claim they work 50+ hours a week are either lying or are martyrs by choice. The work is simply not that demanding.)

I teach an AP class. Can you please explain to me how I can get that type of grading done during my work hours?

If you don’t think this job is demanding, then you aren’t doing it correctly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

It's a trade off. Teaching is an entry level position. Many folks do it for a few years and then move on. Entry level positions are going to have lower salaries.

You don't think there is value to keeping experienced teachers around?

Of course there's some value, so there should be career development and pay increases. But, a classroom teacher is going to find their salary capped at some level. It's the same for beat cops and firefighters.

My cop brother made $150k last year thanks to generous overtime. I think his base was something like $110k. He's 43.

I’m a teacher married to a police officer. We started the same year (15 years ago). He makes almost twice what I do even though our starting pay was similar. Part of it is he gets paid for overtime whereas I do not. Even if I compare his base pay to mine, however, he still makes 30% more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
What are the average SAT scores of teachers?


Don't know, but mine was a 1540. Should I be compensated more because of it?

Because I'm afraid you were about to suggest that because entry to teaching programs is easier, they should be paid less for the rest of their lives.

That's pretty much how it works in other fields. You are an outlier who is diverting the discussion from the question about average SAT scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What are the average SAT scores of teachers?


Don't know, but mine was a 1540. Should I be compensated more because of it?

Because I'm afraid you were about to suggest that because entry to teaching programs is easier, they should be paid less for the rest of their lives.

That's pretty much how it works in other fields. You are an outlier who is diverting the discussion from the question about average SAT scores.

My husband has his PhD and is well paid in his field. Guess what he bombed? His SAT. The SAT is not a strong indicator of intelligence or future success. Colleges are starting to pull away from it, and rightfully so.

I don’t see the point in judging people by their SAT scores.

[Anonymous]

A few things to consider:

1) public school teachers have a rich benefits package and have more time off than the average professional. When one adjusts for those differences, how do teacher salaries compare?
2) most teachers are given a curriculum and teach the same class for years. Thus, their position is very different from a professional that is solving new problems or inventing new products and services every day. It’s not that teachers are robots, but that they’re not being paid to solve problems with big upside wins. Instead, their value is helping students understand a set of material both have been given.
3) a lot of a teacher’s problems stem from parents. Parents hate taxes, which pay teachers’ compensation. Parents also expect schools to make their kids geniuses. Parents never want to believe that a problem is caused by them or their kid. Instead, they blame the teachers. Teaching would be more fun without some parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A few things to consider:

1) public school teachers have a rich benefits package and have more time off than the average professional. When one adjusts for those differences, how do teacher salaries compare?
2) most teachers are given a curriculum and teach the same class for years. Thus, their position is very different from a professional that is solving new problems or inventing new products and services every day. It’s not that teachers are robots, but that they’re not being paid to solve problems with big upside wins. Instead, their value is helping students understand a set of material both have been given.
3) a lot of a teacher’s problems stem from parents. Parents hate taxes, which pay teachers’ compensation. Parents also expect schools to make their kids geniuses. Parents never want to believe that a problem is caused by them or their kid. Instead, they blame the teachers. Teaching would be more fun without some parents.

#2 If you are innovative, aware of the world around you and responsive to your students, you are not teaching the same thing year after year. Skills, content knowledge and concepts should meet grade level/testing standards, but engaging a class in learning and integrating subjects -including math and science- is never the same. That’s part of what keeps teaching interesting. All the extra time and resource gathering and student feedback snd meetings and admin demands and time your own kids are ignored causes the burnout. Salary isn’t high enough to make up for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few things to consider:

1) public school teachers have a rich benefits package and have more time off than the average professional. When one adjusts for those differences, how do teacher salaries compare?
2) most teachers are given a curriculum and teach the same class for years. Thus, their position is very different from a professional that is solving new problems or inventing new products and services every day. It’s not that teachers are robots, but that they’re not being paid to solve problems with big upside wins. Instead, their value is helping students understand a set of material both have been given.
3) a lot of a teacher’s problems stem from parents. Parents hate taxes, which pay teachers’ compensation. Parents also expect schools to make their kids geniuses. Parents never want to believe that a problem is caused by them or their kid. Instead, they blame the teachers. Teaching would be more fun without some parents.

#2 If you are innovative, aware of the world around you and responsive to your students, you are not teaching the same thing year after year. Skills, content knowledge and concepts should meet grade level/testing standards, but engaging a class in learning and integrating subjects -including math and science- is never the same. That’s part of what keeps teaching interesting. All the extra time and resource gathering and student feedback snd meetings and admin demands and time your own kids are ignored causes the burnout. Salary isn’t high enough to make up for it.

Regarding #2... thank you, PP. I read that and immediately thought, "but I don't teach the same content or the same way year after year." My students change, so my approach changes.

Regarding #3... I don't really struggle with parents. I have a few overbearing and unreasonable ones each year, but they aren't why I'm considering leaving. It's the WORK. Teachers have too many responsibilities and too little time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

It's a trade off. Teaching is an entry level position. Many folks do it for a few years and then move on. Entry level positions are going to have lower salaries.

There’s nothing “entry level” about teaching. Many teachers would tell you that you don’t hit a stride until years 8 or 9. The job is demanding and it takes years to build the bag of tricks that make it easier.

As for people teaching for a few years and moving on, it’s often because they are overwhelmed by the workload and emotional toll. Burnout is HIGH in the first 5 years.