Brian Flores lawsuit alleging racism in NFL

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is truly amazing the lengths some people are going in this thread to deny that there is any racial discrimination in this NFL. And those of you trying to make the discussion about gambling instead of racism are complicit in that.

I'm not doing that, but rather commenting on the merits of the lawsuit. Two different things.
If the Rooney Rule was violated, it's Roger Goodell's job to take action - it's just a league rule. It doesn't come close to proving unlawful racial discrimination.
Now if Flores and his lawyers are firing a warning shot at the NFL owners, fine. Perhaps that's overdue. But I don't see that hiring Daboll over Flores comes close to proving racial discrimination.

If the only reason the Giants invited Flores to interview was because he is a racial minority and not because they had any intention of seriously considering him for the job, that is absolutely racial discrimination.

You keep saying that, and I'm not aware of any legal support for it. I'm happy to reconsider if you can provide some.

You have the causation all turned around here, which I think is why you're having trouble understanding this (unless you are deliberately misunderstanding). The Rooney Rule did not create these issues of racism in the NFL, it was the NFL's attempt to address racism in hiring practices to avoid a lawsuit like this one. What is clear from Flores' lawsuit is that the Rooney Rule is not working because teams are continuing discriminatory hiring practices despite the rule. The discrimination claims are not based on violation of the Rooney Rule itself, it is based on the actual racism going on in the hiring practices of NFL teams. These violations of the intent of the Rooney Rule are evidence of teams' discriminatory practices because it demonstrates that, even in the face of ample evidence of past discriminatory practices, teams are doubling down on those practices with full knowledge of the effects rather than trying to eliminate racism in their hiring practices.

some good points, but it still overlooks why the Giants wanted Daboll over Flores. Are you seriously arguing it was because of race?
ll

I would recommend you read the complaint itself. The lawsuit is not just about that single incident. It provides a detailed account of the history of racism that led to the Rooney Rule, the failure of the Rooney Rule itself because of the lack of good faith compliance by teams, how the issue pervades not only head coaching positions but also coordinator and GM positions, and detailed accounts of multiple specific instances of disparate treatment in hiring involving different individuals and teams. It is a detailed and compelling read. Unless, that is, you go into it determined to reject any possibility that racism could exist in the NFL due to your own bigotry.

So why are you avoiding answering the question central to this lawsuit. Was Daboll selected due to race. Go aherad and make the argument he was an obviously lesser choice than Flores. If Flores (or you) can't win that argument, he loses this lawsuit.

The Daboll allegations are not actually "central" to the complaint. They are only part of much broader and extensive allegations regarding racism in NFL hiring practices. Let's say we are flipping a coin, and the first flip lands on heads. That does not necessarily mean the coin is weighted towards heads, right? If I flip it three times and each time it's heads, that could just be a coincidence. But if I flip it 32 times in a row and it comes up tails only once, would you start to question whether there something shady going on with that coin?

I haven't read it, but is this a class action lawsuit.? If so, maybe the the broader allegations of racism in NFL hiring practices come into play.

Dear lord. Yes, it is a class action. Which has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread and in pretty much all of the new coverage of the lawsuit. If you want people to take your opinion seriously, you need to make some minimal effort to education yourself on the issue.

Well maybe it's because, as a lawyer, I don't think it has a ghost's chance in hell as even being certified as a class action. So I didn't take that possibility seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The full complaint is here for those interested.
https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1G_ITu7v2SOVSWMS1nIxEcRHASpmfUTmr8PLLmVgeXoGWszcEiPT7J_2I

FWIW, my Giants fan DH is a litigator with 20 years of class action experience and thinks that Flores’s situation is too unique to be the formation of a class, but we’ll see.

Lawyer here, and I have to agree with your DH.

Different lawyer. That may be the case, but the class cert discovery could be brutal for the NFL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The full complaint is here for those interested.
https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1G_ITu7v2SOVSWMS1nIxEcRHASpmfUTmr8PLLmVgeXoGWszcEiPT7J_2I

FWIW, my Giants fan DH is a litigator with 20 years of class action experience and thinks that Flores’s situation is too unique to be the formation of a class, but we’ll see.

Lawyer here, and I have to agree with your DH.

Different lawyer. That may be the case, but the class cert discovery could be brutal for the NFL.

how many other class members does he purport to represent? How many actual people have been asserted as actual class members?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is truly amazing the lengths some people are going in this thread to deny that there is any racial discrimination in this NFL. And those of you trying to make the discussion about gambling instead of racism are complicit in that.

I'm not doing that, but rather commenting on the merits of the lawsuit. Two different things.
If the Rooney Rule was violated, it's Roger Goodell's job to take action - it's just a league rule. It doesn't come close to proving unlawful racial discrimination.
Now if Flores and his lawyers are firing a warning shot at the NFL owners, fine. Perhaps that's overdue. But I don't see that hiring Daboll over Flores comes close to proving racial discrimination.

If the only reason the Giants invited Flores to interview was because he is a racial minority and not because they had any intention of seriously considering him for the job, that is absolutely racial discrimination.

You keep saying that, and I'm not aware of any legal support for it. I'm happy to reconsider if you can provide some.

You have the causation all turned around here, which I think is why you're having trouble understanding this (unless you are deliberately misunderstanding). The Rooney Rule did not create these issues of racism in the NFL, it was the NFL's attempt to address racism in hiring practices to avoid a lawsuit like this one. What is clear from Flores' lawsuit is that the Rooney Rule is not working because teams are continuing discriminatory hiring practices despite the rule. The discrimination claims are not based on violation of the Rooney Rule itself, it is based on the actual racism going on in the hiring practices of NFL teams. These violations of the intent of the Rooney Rule are evidence of teams' discriminatory practices because it demonstrates that, even in the face of ample evidence of past discriminatory practices, teams are doubling down on those practices with full knowledge of the effects rather than trying to eliminate racism in their hiring practices.

some good points, but it still overlooks why the Giants wanted Daboll over Flores. Are you seriously arguing it was because of race?
ll

I would recommend you read the complaint itself. The lawsuit is not just about that single incident. It provides a detailed account of the history of racism that led to the Rooney Rule, the failure of the Rooney Rule itself because of the lack of good faith compliance by teams, how the issue pervades not only head coaching positions but also coordinator and GM positions, and detailed accounts of multiple specific instances of disparate treatment in hiring involving different individuals and teams. It is a detailed and compelling read. Unless, that is, you go into it determined to reject any possibility that racism could exist in the NFL due to your own bigotry.

So why are you avoiding answering the question central to this lawsuit. Was Daboll selected due to race. Go aherad and make the argument he was an obviously lesser choice than Flores. If Flores (or you) can't win that argument, he loses this lawsuit.

The Daboll allegations are not actually "central" to the complaint. They are only part of much broader and extensive allegations regarding racism in NFL hiring practices. Let's say we are flipping a coin, and the first flip lands on heads. That does not necessarily mean the coin is weighted towards heads, right? If I flip it three times and each time it's heads, that could just be a coincidence. But if I flip it 32 times in a row and it comes up tails only once, would you start to question whether there something shady going on with that coin?

I haven't read it, but is this a class action lawsuit.? If so, maybe the the broader allegations of racism in NFL hiring practices come into play.

Dear lord. Yes, it is a class action. Which has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread and in pretty much all of the new coverage of the lawsuit. If you want people to take your opinion seriously, you need to make some minimal effort to education yourself on the issue.

Well maybe it's because, as a lawyer, I don't think it has a ghost's chance in hell as even being certified as a class action. So I didn't take that possibility seriously.

DP. Then why did you say the NFL’s broader practices would be relevant if it were filed as a class action?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Couple of points that will make it hard on Flores to prove his suit-
1. Miami has a black GM, who is technically, Flores boss.
2. NYG did satisfy Rooney Rule before Flores interview w Leslie Frazier and Patrick Graham (current DC/ 2 interviews)
3. NYG also had a minority as the GM for 10 years, so really can't point to history of neglecting minorities in senior roles
4. Broncos had just fired Vance Joseph as coach when they interviewed Flores. Again, tough to be systematic when recent history suggests otherwise.
5. Re giants, they may have wanted Daboll. But until contract is signed, it is not unusual to continue to interview candidates. As mentioned above, Flores was considered a favorite of NYG ownership until GM was hired.

If NFL coaches jobs would mirror society then a fair representation would be roughly 3 - 4 black men as HC's. Black pop is 14% of US pop. Assume 50/50 male/female...so 7% of US pop male. Adjusted for higher level of participation a bit (both that playing in the NFL is a prerequisite to coach in the NFL)... 3.2 jobs is 10% of NFL HC's for reference.

Having said all that, it is possible that some level of racism exists within NFL ownership. I would say the same for any industry. Hard to say how prevalent it is, but good on Flores for the courage and his belief in being wronged to take on this difficult subject to legally win.

NFL head coaches do not get pulled from the c-suite of a pharmaceutical company. You need to look at the pool that tends to flow into the coaching ranks, because they all have at least some playing experience (although not necessarily at the NFL level). If we look at the NFL as a proxy for participation generally, NFL players are more than 50% black; white players make up less than 25%. If coaches were pulled proportionally from the available pool, the breakdown should look more like 16 black head coaches and 8 white head coaches.

I am the poster...I get what you are saying (NFL is actually 75% black re players). But, I disagree that just cause you play, you can coach. I know a few NFL former NFL players (both black and white) and they all have always said that most of the players (both black and white) couldn't coach a lick...but they were super talented players, which is probably why so few are HC's..it is not like you see a bunch of ex white NFL Players as HC's either (4 by my count with Rivera as a minority, so not counted).

The problem in all of this is what someone thinks is fair representation. Is it 4? or 8? or 16, as you suggest? With such a small supply (32 jobs total). I chose total pop as a proxy, you chose player pool. It is probably somewhere in between.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Couple of points that will make it hard on Flores to prove his suit-
1. Miami has a black GM, who is technically, Flores boss.
2. NYG did satisfy Rooney Rule before Flores interview w Leslie Frazier and Patrick Graham (current DC/ 2 interviews)
3. NYG also had a minority as the GM for 10 years, so really can't point to history of neglecting minorities in senior roles
4. Broncos had just fired Vance Joseph as coach when they interviewed Flores. Again, tough to be systematic when recent history suggests otherwise.
5. Re giants, they may have wanted Daboll. But until contract is signed, it is not unusual to continue to interview candidates. As mentioned above, Flores was considered a favorite of NYG ownership until GM was hired.

If NFL coaches jobs would mirror society then a fair representation would be roughly 3 - 4 black men as HC's. Black pop is 14% of US pop. Assume 50/50 male/female...so 7% of US pop male. Adjusted for higher level of participation a bit (both that playing in the NFL is a prerequisite to coach in the NFL)... 3.2 jobs is 10% of NFL HC's for reference.

Having said all that, it is possible that some level of racism exists within NFL ownership. I would say the same for any industry. Hard to say how prevalent it is, but good on Flores for the courage and his belief in being wronged to take on this difficult subject to legally win.

NFL head coaches do not get pulled from the c-suite of a pharmaceutical company. You need to look at the pool that tends to flow into the coaching ranks, because they all have at least some playing experience (although not necessarily at the NFL level). If we look at the NFL as a proxy for participation generally, NFL players are more than 50% black; white players make up less than 25%. If coaches were pulled proportionally from the available pool, the breakdown should look more like 16 black head coaches and 8 white head coaches.

I am the poster...I get what you are saying (NFL is actually 75% black re players). But, I disagree that just cause you play, you can coach. I know a few NFL former NFL players (both black and white) and they all have always said that most of the players (both black and white) couldn't coach a lick...but they were super talented players, which is probably why so few are HC's..it is not like you see a bunch of ex white NFL Players as HC's either (4 by my count with Rivera as a minority, so not counted).

The problem in all of this is what someone thinks is fair representation. Is it 4? or 8? or 16, as you suggest? With such a small supply (32 jobs total). I chose total pop as a proxy, you chose player pool. It is probably somewhere in between.

Why would you assume black players are less likely to be qualified for coaching positions than white players?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The full complaint is here for those interested.
https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1G_ITu7v2SOVSWMS1nIxEcRHASpmfUTmr8PLLmVgeXoGWszcEiPT7J_2I

FWIW, my Giants fan DH is a litigator with 20 years of class action experience and thinks that Flores’s situation is too unique to be the formation of a class, but we’ll see.

Lawyer here, and I have to agree with your DH.

Different lawyer. That may be the case, but the class cert discovery could be brutal for the NFL.

how many other class members does he purport to represent? How many actual people have been asserted as actual class members?

DP. I will ignore the ignorance of the law in your post and only respond that the complaint alleges at least 40.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is truly amazing the lengths some people are going in this thread to deny that there is any racial discrimination in this NFL. And those of you trying to make the discussion about gambling instead of racism are complicit in that.

I'm not doing that, but rather commenting on the merits of the lawsuit. Two different things.
If the Rooney Rule was violated, it's Roger Goodell's job to take action - it's just a league rule. It doesn't come close to proving unlawful racial discrimination.
Now if Flores and his lawyers are firing a warning shot at the NFL owners, fine. Perhaps that's overdue. But I don't see that hiring Daboll over Flores comes close to proving racial discrimination.

If the only reason the Giants invited Flores to interview was because he is a racial minority and not because they had any intention of seriously considering him for the job, that is absolutely racial discrimination.

You keep saying that, and I'm not aware of any legal support for it. I'm happy to reconsider if you can provide some.

You have the causation all turned around here, which I think is why you're having trouble understanding this (unless you are deliberately misunderstanding). The Rooney Rule did not create these issues of racism in the NFL, it was the NFL's attempt to address racism in hiring practices to avoid a lawsuit like this one. What is clear from Flores' lawsuit is that the Rooney Rule is not working because teams are continuing discriminatory hiring practices despite the rule. The discrimination claims are not based on violation of the Rooney Rule itself, it is based on the actual racism going on in the hiring practices of NFL teams. These violations of the intent of the Rooney Rule are evidence of teams' discriminatory practices because it demonstrates that, even in the face of ample evidence of past discriminatory practices, teams are doubling down on those practices with full knowledge of the effects rather than trying to eliminate racism in their hiring practices.

some good points, but it still overlooks why the Giants wanted Daboll over Flores. Are you seriously arguing it was because of race?
ll

I would recommend you read the complaint itself. The lawsuit is not just about that single incident. It provides a detailed account of the history of racism that led to the Rooney Rule, the failure of the Rooney Rule itself because of the lack of good faith compliance by teams, how the issue pervades not only head coaching positions but also coordinator and GM positions, and detailed accounts of multiple specific instances of disparate treatment in hiring involving different individuals and teams. It is a detailed and compelling read. Unless, that is, you go into it determined to reject any possibility that racism could exist in the NFL due to your own bigotry.

So why are you avoiding answering the question central to this lawsuit. Was Daboll selected due to race. Go aherad and make the argument he was an obviously lesser choice than Flores. If Flores (or you) can't win that argument, he loses this lawsuit.

The Daboll allegations are not actually "central" to the complaint. They are only part of much broader and extensive allegations regarding racism in NFL hiring practices. Let's say we are flipping a coin, and the first flip lands on heads. That does not necessarily mean the coin is weighted towards heads, right? If I flip it three times and each time it's heads, that could just be a coincidence. But if I flip it 32 times in a row and it comes up tails only once, would you start to question whether there something shady going on with that coin?

I haven't read it, but is this a class action lawsuit.? If so, maybe the the broader allegations of racism in NFL hiring practices come into play.

Dear lord. Yes, it is a class action. Which has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread and in pretty much all of the new coverage of the lawsuit. If you want people to take your opinion seriously, you need to make some minimal effort to education yourself on the issue.

Well maybe it's because, as a lawyer, I don't think it has a ghost's chance in hell as even being certified as a class action. So I didn't take that possibility seriously.

DP. Then why did you say the NFL’s broader practices would be relevant if it were filed as a class action?

It has to be certified as a class action first. A near insurmountable obstacle to a case like this in my opinion. If you have a class action, them the broader practices would come into play and be relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The full complaint is here for those interested.
https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1G_ITu7v2SOVSWMS1nIxEcRHASpmfUTmr8PLLmVgeXoGWszcEiPT7J_2I

FWIW, my Giants fan DH is a litigator with 20 years of class action experience and thinks that Flores’s situation is too unique to be the formation of a class, but we’ll see.

Lawyer here, and I have to agree with your DH.

Different lawyer. That may be the case, but the class cert discovery could be brutal for the NFL.

how many other class members does he purport to represent? How many actual people have been asserted as actual class members?

DP. I will ignore the ignorance of the law in your post and only respond that the complaint alleges at least 40.

Ignorance of the law? O.k., I've handled class action lawsuits as both plaintiff and defense attorney, so ok. 40 is not going to cut it. In my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Couple of points that will make it hard on Flores to prove his suit-
1. Miami has a black GM, who is technically, Flores boss.
2. NYG did satisfy Rooney Rule before Flores interview w Leslie Frazier and Patrick Graham (current DC/ 2 interviews)
3. NYG also had a minority as the GM for 10 years, so really can't point to history of neglecting minorities in senior roles
4. Broncos had just fired Vance Joseph as coach when they interviewed Flores. Again, tough to be systematic when recent history suggests otherwise.
5. Re giants, they may have wanted Daboll. But until contract is signed, it is not unusual to continue to interview candidates. As mentioned above, Flores was considered a favorite of NYG ownership until GM was hired.

If NFL coaches jobs would mirror society then a fair representation would be roughly 3 - 4 black men as HC's. Black pop is 14% of US pop. Assume 50/50 male/female...so 7% of US pop male. Adjusted for higher level of participation a bit (both that playing in the NFL is a prerequisite to coach in the NFL)... 3.2 jobs is 10% of NFL HC's for reference.

Having said all that, it is possible that some level of racism exists within NFL ownership. I would say the same for any industry. Hard to say how prevalent it is, but good on Flores for the courage and his belief in being wronged to take on this difficult subject to legally win.

NFL head coaches do not get pulled from the c-suite of a pharmaceutical company. You need to look at the pool that tends to flow into the coaching ranks, because they all have at least some playing experience (although not necessarily at the NFL level). If we look at the NFL as a proxy for participation generally, NFL players are more than 50% black; white players make up less than 25%. If coaches were pulled proportionally from the available pool, the breakdown should look more like 16 black head coaches and 8 white head coaches.

I am the poster...I get what you are saying (NFL is actually 75% black re players). But, I disagree that just cause you play, you can coach. I know a few NFL former NFL players (both black and white) and they all have always said that most of the players (both black and white) couldn't coach a lick...but they were super talented players, which is probably why so few are HC's..it is not like you see a bunch of ex white NFL Players as HC's either (4 by my count with Rivera as a minority, so not counted).

The problem in all of this is what someone thinks is fair representation. Is it 4? or 8? or 16, as you suggest? With such a small supply (32 jobs total). I chose total pop as a proxy, you chose player pool. It is probably somewhere in between.

Why would you assume black players are less likely to be qualified for coaching positions than white players?

I am not. My point is re ex players is that there are only like 5 total in the league, of any race. Thus proving my point that a playing background is not valued, so connecting representation to player pool demo's doesn't seem valued. If there were a bunch of ex white NFL Players as head coaches, then I think it would be fair to argue racism. Should a playing background be given more weight? I think so..but to date, it has not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The full complaint is here for those interested.
https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1G_ITu7v2SOVSWMS1nIxEcRHASpmfUTmr8PLLmVgeXoGWszcEiPT7J_2I

FWIW, my Giants fan DH is a litigator with 20 years of class action experience and thinks that Flores’s situation is too unique to be the formation of a class, but we’ll see.

Lawyer here, and I have to agree with your DH.

Different lawyer. That may be the case, but the class cert discovery could be brutal for the NFL.

how many other class members does he purport to represent? How many actual people have been asserted as actual class members?

Here is the class: "All Black Head Coach, Offensive and Defensive Coordinators and Quarterbacks Coaches, as well as General Managers, and Black candidates for those positions during the applicable statute of limitations period"

https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Couple of points that will make it hard on Flores to prove his suit-
1. Miami has a black GM, who is technically, Flores boss.
2. NYG did satisfy Rooney Rule before Flores interview w Leslie Frazier and Patrick Graham (current DC/ 2 interviews)
3. NYG also had a minority as the GM for 10 years, so really can't point to history of neglecting minorities in senior roles
4. Broncos had just fired Vance Joseph as coach when they interviewed Flores. Again, tough to be systematic when recent history suggests otherwise.
5. Re giants, they may have wanted Daboll. But until contract is signed, it is not unusual to continue to interview candidates. As mentioned above, Flores was considered a favorite of NYG ownership until GM was hired.

If NFL coaches jobs would mirror society then a fair representation would be roughly 3 - 4 black men as HC's. Black pop is 14% of US pop. Assume 50/50 male/female...so 7% of US pop male. Adjusted for higher level of participation a bit (both that playing in the NFL is a prerequisite to coach in the NFL)... 3.2 jobs is 10% of NFL HC's for reference.

Having said all that, it is possible that some level of racism exists within NFL ownership. I would say the same for any industry. Hard to say how prevalent it is, but good on Flores for the courage and his belief in being wronged to take on this difficult subject to legally win.

NFL head coaches do not get pulled from the c-suite of a pharmaceutical company. You need to look at the pool that tends to flow into the coaching ranks, because they all have at least some playing experience (although not necessarily at the NFL level). If we look at the NFL as a proxy for participation generally, NFL players are more than 50% black; white players make up less than 25%. If coaches were pulled proportionally from the available pool, the breakdown should look more like 16 black head coaches and 8 white head coaches.

I am the poster...I get what you are saying (NFL is actually 75% black re players). But, I disagree that just cause you play, you can coach. I know a few NFL former NFL players (both black and white) and they all have always said that most of the players (both black and white) couldn't coach a lick...but they were super talented players, which is probably why so few are HC's..it is not like you see a bunch of ex white NFL Players as HC's either (4 by my count with Rivera as a minority, so not counted).

The problem in all of this is what someone thinks is fair representation. Is it 4? or 8? or 16, as you suggest? With such a small supply (32 jobs total). I chose total pop as a proxy, you chose player pool. It is probably somewhere in between.

Why would you assume black players are less likely to be qualified for coaching positions than white players?

I am not. My point is re ex players is that there are only like 5 total in the league, of any race. Thus proving my point that a playing background is not valued, so connecting representation to player pool demo's doesn't seem valued. If there were a bunch of ex white NFL Players as head coaches, then I think it would be fair to argue racism. Should a playing background be given more weight? I think so..but to date, it has not.

How many head coaches are there that have never played football at any level?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The full complaint is here for those interested.
https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1G_ITu7v2SOVSWMS1nIxEcRHASpmfUTmr8PLLmVgeXoGWszcEiPT7J_2I

FWIW, my Giants fan DH is a litigator with 20 years of class action experience and thinks that Flores’s situation is too unique to be the formation of a class, but we’ll see.

Lawyer here, and I have to agree with your DH.

Different lawyer. That may be the case, but the class cert discovery could be brutal for the NFL.

how many other class members does he purport to represent? How many actual people have been asserted as actual class members?

Here is the class: "All Black Head Coach, Offensive and Defensive Coordinators and Quarterbacks Coaches, as well as General Managers, and Black candidates for those positions during the applicable statute of limitations period"

https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf

Thanks. I think we will have to wait and see if the court certifies a class - just because the plaintiff alleges one doesn't mean the court agrees a class action is the only way to handle the matter.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33194862/brian-flores-sues-nfl-others-former-miami-dolphins-coach-alleges-racism-hiring-practices

Seems like the fix was in for the NYG job - wonder if Belichick texted him on purpose, knowing it was a sham?

John Elway doesn't look too good, either.

Not sure how the league can claim there's no racism when only one coach is Black in a league where 70% of the players are Black.

What? One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. Owners want winners. Players and coaches are two different things. Give me the name of a bankable black coach and I'm sure he'd have a great shot at getting hired. This isn't affirmative action like college or government employment.

DP. Why do you think there are no, in your apparent opinion, “bankable” black coaches in the NFL?

I didn't say that. If there are - I'm sure they're highly desired these days. Name one with a winning record who has been denied consideration.

Brian Flores had a winning record this year and was fired

pretty sure his record was 24-25 with Miami

That's true, but it was because he took over a truly awful team and in year one went 5-11. In the last 2 years, he went 19-14.

He was fired, in large part, because he internally advocated that the QB stunk (he's right) and that they should make a change. And when the owner told him no, he was suspected of leaking potential changes to the league.

I am a little surprised he hasn't been scooped up. The lawsuit will not help his chances, of course, but he'd have been a top candidate for any coaching vacancy.

This! It all depends on the particular vacancies at the moment, but a lawsuit accusing your former owner of some really awful ethics isn't going to make him too attractive to some of the owners who might be looking for a coach.

Black men should be quiet as to not upset the powerful white men is not a great argument.

Anyone, black or white, should make sure they have a very solid legal case before filing a lawsuit accusing their employers of racial discrimination. I agree with the pp who said he probably was in line for a good job soon, but now that is in doubt. I think he acted rashly here out of anger and frustration at not being selected for the Giants job.

Before this, I'd have said that he'd become the assistant head coach of the Patriots, with an eye toward taking over as HC in a few years. Now, after making Belichick exhibit A in his discrimination lawsuit, not sure that's in the cards.

Ah, so you think the black man should have taken a demotion from head coach to assistant head coach and just be grateful anyone gave him a job at all?

You are demonstrating you know nothing about football.

I think you don't know anything about football if you think taking an assistant head coach job makes a black person a lock for the eventual head coaching position.

Who said anything about a lock? But Belichick is 70, and while he may coach for 10 more years, it's increasingly likely he won't. And by the way, the new white coach of the Raiders followed this career path - got fired after a coupel of years, went back to the patriots, and was just hired for a head coaching position. It's racism to suggest that the Flores take that same path?

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that the new raiders coach (josh mcdaniels) accepted a job with the calls, reneged on it after a week or so, went back to be an assistant and THEN still got a job. Flores went 19 - 14 the last two years as the head coach of a rebuilding team, got fired, and has only been given token interviews. That seems like a race issue to me

Now who is conveniently omitting facts? In fact, after being fired from the Broncos, McDaniels was first hired as the OC for the Rams (though never served in that role). Then he was the OC for the Patriots for 6 years before being offered the Colts job.

The point if this whole ancillary discussion was when you asked, rather archly, "Ah, so you think the black man should have taken a demotion from head coach to assistant head coach and just be grateful anyone gave him a job at all?" I'm merely pointing out that this is a well-traveled path for many white coaches, and Josh McDaniels is only the most recent example. So yes, it's perfectly fine to suggest Flores take that path as well.

It's also worth mentioning that fired Dolphins coaches who are immediately hired by other franchises do not exactly have an unblemished track record. I have first hand experience with that. In fact, the last time it happened, the inept team that hired Adam Gase *should have* hired Flores.

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Anonymous wrote:It is truly amazing the lengths some people are going in this thread to deny that there is any racial discrimination in this NFL. And those of you trying to make the discussion about gambling instead of racism are complicit in that.

I'm not doing that, but rather commenting on the merits of the lawsuit. Two different things.
If the Rooney Rule was violated, it's Roger Goodell's job to take action - it's just a league rule. It doesn't come close to proving unlawful racial discrimination.
Now if Flores and his lawyers are firing a warning shot at the NFL owners, fine. Perhaps that's overdue. But I don't see that hiring Daboll over Flores comes close to proving racial discrimination.

If the only reason the Giants invited Flores to interview was because he is a racial minority and not because they had any intention of seriously considering him for the job, that is absolutely racial discrimination.

You keep saying that, and I'm not aware of any legal support for it. I'm happy to reconsider if you can provide some.

You have the causation all turned around here, which I think is why you're having trouble understanding this (unless you are deliberately misunderstanding). The Rooney Rule did not create these issues of racism in the NFL, it was the NFL's attempt to address racism in hiring practices to avoid a lawsuit like this one. What is clear from Flores' lawsuit is that the Rooney Rule is not working because teams are continuing discriminatory hiring practices despite the rule. The discrimination claims are not based on violation of the Rooney Rule itself, it is based on the actual racism going on in the hiring practices of NFL teams. These violations of the intent of the Rooney Rule are evidence of teams' discriminatory practices because it demonstrates that, even in the face of ample evidence of past discriminatory practices, teams are doubling down on those practices with full knowledge of the effects rather than trying to eliminate racism in their hiring practices.

some good points, but it still overlooks why the Giants wanted Daboll over Flores. Are you seriously arguing it was because of race?
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I would recommend you read the complaint itself. The lawsuit is not just about that single incident. It provides a detailed account of the history of racism that led to the Rooney Rule, the failure of the Rooney Rule itself because of the lack of good faith compliance by teams, how the issue pervades not only head coaching positions but also coordinator and GM positions, and detailed accounts of multiple specific instances of disparate treatment in hiring involving different individuals and teams. It is a detailed and compelling read. Unless, that is, you go into it determined to reject any possibility that racism could exist in the NFL due to your own bigotry.

So why are you avoiding answering the question central to this lawsuit. Was Daboll selected due to race. Go aherad and make the argument he was an obviously lesser choice than Flores. If Flores (or you) can't win that argument, he loses this lawsuit.

The Daboll allegations are not actually "central" to the complaint. They are only part of much broader and extensive allegations regarding racism in NFL hiring practices. Let's say we are flipping a coin, and the first flip lands on heads. That does not necessarily mean the coin is weighted towards heads, right? If I flip it three times and each time it's heads, that could just be a coincidence. But if I flip it 32 times in a row and it comes up tails only once, would you start to question whether there something shady going on with that coin?

This is not actually true. Yes, the complaint alleges a broader racist culture. But before a class is even considered, Flores has to allege his own claim - only them can he represent a class (and whether a lass could be certified here is seriously in question, but that's a later discussion). And the Daboll allegations are indeed central to his claims.