Dog training in crisis

[Anonymous]

I have two good friends who are older and they have a 70 pound rescue. One of them can walk the dog while the other keeps getting pulled down. The one that gets pulled down uses a prong collar. I am trying to convince them not to do so and I found this interesting article about it. I don't know why the one senior can't just walk the dog.

I have a mildly difficult dog but, I've chosen not to use aversive methods to cause him pain. It saddens me when I see people with very easy dogs ( goldens etc) get punished harshly for doing normal dog things ( like bark excitedly at another dog) Why do people get dogs if they only want them to act like robots? They force them on walks but, don't allow them to sniff. They yell or use harsh corrections when they didn't properly teach them in the first place! I think the majority of people want dogs to be trained really quickly and that's why they use these harsh punishments. But they don't care about the feelings of the dog And for that I blame the dogs we see on tv who are always behaved and fade into the background when we don't need them.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/201904/should-dogs-be-shocked-choked-or-pronged

What do others think?

[Anonymous]

If the dog can pull the elderly person down, it's not safe for them to walk it regardless of the equipment. The prong collar is offering them a false sense of security.

Re: 'aversives' in training - in a perfect world, everyone would have the time and patience (not to mention knowledge and/or support) to train their dogs using scientifically-informed, positive-reinforcement-based methods. But we don't live in a perfect world. If a prong collar means a rescue dog gets an otherwise loving home with plenty of walks - and maybe eventually the family transitions to a harness once they get all that walking practice! - then I'd say it's a net positive.

That said, I agree with you that many, if not most, dog owners are a combination of lazy and poorly informed and do not train OR manage their dogs well at all.

[Anonymous]

I think unless you are a professional trainer or have some reason to believe this dog is being abused (wearing a prong collar doesn't count), you should MYOB.

[Anonymous]

I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think unless you are a professional trainer or have some reason to believe this dog is being abused (wearing a prong collar doesn't count), you should MYOB.

+1

Did they ask for help? Or are you volunteering it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think unless you are a professional trainer or have some reason to believe this dog is being abused (wearing a prong collar doesn't count), you should MYOB. [/quote

Op here:

Oops I forgot to mention I will not entertain myob comments BECAUSE i wish to start a serious discussion.

Short answer: we discuss dog training and they asked my opinion. If you don't have any real added value than skip this discussion. It is not for you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Exhibit A on someone who did not read the article.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Exhibit A on someone who did not read the article.

Op here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

Op: I'm sorry but, "balanced training" is not where it is at. And btw, my discussion was also meant to discuss the article not just these particular friends. Let me give you an example...long time ago in schools there was a belief that corporal punishment helped kids learn or behave. Imagine today that your kid gets a wrong answer and instead of showing them where they made the mistake in a kind way they get hit on their hands with a ruler? If they are told that they are lazy and stupid? Will the child want to learn or will they give up?

All the aversive methods cause pain, fear and can do serious physical and damage the relationship between the owner. We have learned that hitting kids is wrong why can we treat our good friends the same way? And remember, dogs do not speak English ( or any other language) They have to learn by repetition and it is a lifelong journey!

Beyonce practiced her concert for 8 months for a two hour show and yet we expect our dogs to pick up things so much quicker. Why is that? And no I am not a dog trainer but, I accept that I will work at where my dog is not where I want him to be.\

As to my friends they have used trainers but, this friend is too weak to actually walk the dog! The other partner can do it so they should let the one spouse be on walk duty and the other can come along for the exercise!

[Anonymous]

Seems like the one who shouldn’t be walking the dog *wants* to walk the dog. Though obviously they shouldn’t. Not under your control. Hopefully they don’t get hurt, but if they do it sounds like the poor dog will get the blame.

I agree about prong collars and such methods. Never used one, never would. They’re horrid and harmful.

There are many training and no-pull harnesses on the market. But many people have extremely outdated views on dogs, which is why prong collars persist. I hate seeing them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think unless you are a professional trainer or have some reason to believe this dog is being abused (wearing a prong collar doesn't count), you should MYOB.

This! 100X

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

Op: I'm sorry but, "balanced training" is not where it is at. And btw, my discussion was also meant to discuss the article not just these particular friends. Let me give you an example...long time ago in schools there was a belief that corporal punishment helped kids learn or behave. Imagine today that your kid gets a wrong answer and instead of showing them where they made the mistake in a kind way they get hit on their hands with a ruler? If they are told that they are lazy and stupid? Will the child want to learn or will they give up?

All the aversive methods cause pain, fear and can do serious physical and damage the relationship between the owner. We have learned that hitting kids is wrong why can we treat our good friends the same way? And remember, dogs do not speak English ( or any other language) They have to learn by repetition and it is a lifelong journey!

Beyonce practiced her concert for 8 months for a two hour show and yet we expect our dogs to pick up things so much quicker. Why is that? And no I am not a dog trainer but, I accept that I will work at where my dog is not where I want him to be.\

As to my friends they have used trainers but, this friend is too weak to actually walk the dog! The other partner can do it so they should let the one spouse be on walk duty and the other can come along for the exercise!

Not OP. Repeat to yourself, this is not my business. My opinion on prong collars is not shared by many others. I cannot and should not tell other people how they should handle training and walking their dog. Just because I think what I believe is right, does not make it so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think unless you are a professional trainer or have some reason to believe this dog is being abused (wearing a prong collar doesn't count), you should MYOB.

This! 100X

Op here: Ok they are my friends and we talk about our dogs and training methods. I know that is so hard to relate to some people! Btw, I told them to stop telling me when they used the prong collar because I can't do anything about it and it pains me if I know. And the dog doesn't need it as she is the sweetest dog.

When I go over there she melts into my lap and I can pet her for a long time! Her problem is when she sees squirrels she wants to chase and my friend is old and either hasn't trained her to stop and she is too weak. One day she will get hurt but again nothing I can do since I suggested she just join her partner on walks. I believe the problem is when the spouse is away and they feel like they have to walk him. But, I told them they should get a walking service on those days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

Op: I'm sorry but, "balanced training" is not where it is at. And btw, my discussion was also meant to discuss the article not just these particular friends. Let me give you an example...long time ago in schools there was a belief that corporal punishment helped kids learn or behave. Imagine today that your kid gets a wrong answer and instead of showing them where they made the mistake in a kind way they get hit on their hands with a ruler? If they are told that they are lazy and stupid? Will the child want to learn or will they give up?

All the aversive methods cause pain, fear and can do serious physical and damage the relationship between the owner. We have learned that hitting kids is wrong why can we treat our good friends the same way? And remember, dogs do not speak English ( or any other language) They have to learn by repetition and it is a lifelong journey!

Beyonce practiced her concert for 8 months for a two hour show and yet we expect our dogs to pick up things so much quicker. Why is that? And no I am not a dog trainer but, I accept that I will work at where my dog is not where I want him to be.\

As to my friends they have used trainers but, this friend is too weak to actually walk the dog! The other partner can do it so they should let the one spouse be on walk duty and the other can come along for the exercise!

Not OP. Repeat to yourself, this is not my business. My opinion on prong collars is not shared by many others. I cannot and should not tell other people how they should handle training and walking their dog. Just because I think what I believe is right, does not make it so.

WRONG! Animals cannot speak for themselves! It is harmful to them. Did you even read the article? One dog almost lost their eye! If you saw a kid being beaten would you say "hey none of my business?" Some people beat their kids and they believe it is the right thing to do. NOOOO In fact I am going to double down and work on getting these things banned.

We have to speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves!