Dog training in crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like the one who shouldn’t be walking the dog *wants* to walk the dog. Though obviously they shouldn’t. Not under your control. Hopefully they don’t get hurt, but if they do it sounds like the poor dog will get the blame.

I agree about prong collars and such methods. Never used one, never would. They’re horrid and harmful.

There are many training and no-pull harnesses on the market. But many people have extremely outdated views on dogs, which is why prong collars persist. I hate seeing them.

Op here and thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

Op: I'm sorry but, "balanced training" is not where it is at. And btw, my discussion was also meant to discuss the article not just these particular friends. Let me give you an example...long time ago in schools there was a belief that corporal punishment helped kids learn or behave. Imagine today that your kid gets a wrong answer and instead of showing them where they made the mistake in a kind way they get hit on their hands with a ruler? If they are told that they are lazy and stupid? Will the child want to learn or will they give up?

All the aversive methods cause pain, fear and can do serious physical and damage the relationship between the owner. We have learned that hitting kids is wrong why can we treat our good friends the same way? And remember, dogs do not speak English ( or any other language) They have to learn by repetition and it is a lifelong journey!

Beyonce practiced her concert for 8 months for a two hour show and yet we expect our dogs to pick up things so much quicker. Why is that? And no I am not a dog trainer but, I accept that I will work at where my dog is not where I want him to be.\

As to my friends they have used trainers but, this friend is too weak to actually walk the dog! The other partner can do it so they should let the one spouse be on walk duty and the other can come along for the exercise!

Not OP. Repeat to yourself, this is not my business. My opinion on prong collars is not shared by many others. I cannot and should not tell other people how they should handle training and walking their dog. Just because I think what I believe is right, does not make it so.

WRONG! Animals cannot speak for themselves! It is harmful to them. Did you even read the article? One dog almost lost their eye! If you saw a kid being beaten would you say "hey none of my business?" Some people beat their kids and they believe it is the right thing to do. NOOOO In fact I am going to double down and work on getting these things banned.

We have to speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves!

Calm down, you sound dramatic. It is only harmful to the dog if the training tool is used incorrectly. I have put a sprenger prong collar on MY neck and pulled it hard, so I can tell you first hand its not pain... it is a pinch of discomfort. The ends on prong like the popular sprenger collar are not sharp unlike some cheaply made prong collars. Just because some idoits misused a tool doesnt mean they are inhumane tools... alcohol can be misused and therefore be dangerous, so can guns (dare I say it) - but we don't shame people for drinking alcohol and many in this country believe in the right to own a gun. It's not all about YOU and how it makes YOU feel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

Op: I'm sorry but, "balanced training" is not where it is at. And btw, my discussion was also meant to discuss the article not just these particular friends. Let me give you an example...long time ago in schools there was a belief that corporal punishment helped kids learn or behave. Imagine today that your kid gets a wrong answer and instead of showing them where they made the mistake in a kind way they get hit on their hands with a ruler? If they are told that they are lazy and stupid? Will the child want to learn or will they give up?

All the aversive methods cause pain, fear and can do serious physical and damage the relationship between the owner. We have learned that hitting kids is wrong why can we treat our good friends the same way? And remember, dogs do not speak English ( or any other language) They have to learn by repetition and it is a lifelong journey!

Beyonce practiced her concert for 8 months for a two hour show and yet we expect our dogs to pick up things so much quicker. Why is that? And no I am not a dog trainer but, I accept that I will work at where my dog is not where I want him to be.\

As to my friends they have used trainers but, this friend is too weak to actually walk the dog! The other partner can do it so they should let the one spouse be on walk duty and the other can come along for the exercise!

Not OP. Repeat to yourself, this is not my business. My opinion on prong collars is not shared by many others. I cannot and should not tell other people how they should handle training and walking their dog. Just because I think what I believe is right, does not make it so.

WRONG! Animals cannot speak for themselves! It is harmful to them. Did you even read the article? One dog almost lost their eye! If you saw a kid being beaten would you say "hey none of my business?" Some people beat their kids and they believe it is the right thing to do. NOOOO In fact I am going to double down and work on getting these things banned.

We have to speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves!

I am trained to used the prong collar. My very strong 120lb dog would drag anyone down. The prong teaches the DOG to self regulate. It's not the tool that is the problem, it is the people using it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

Op: I'm sorry but, "balanced training" is not where it is at. And btw, my discussion was also meant to discuss the article not just these particular friends. Let me give you an example...long time ago in schools there was a belief that corporal punishment helped kids learn or behave. Imagine today that your kid gets a wrong answer and instead of showing them where they made the mistake in a kind way they get hit on their hands with a ruler? If they are told that they are lazy and stupid? Will the child want to learn or will they give up?

All the aversive methods cause pain, fear and can do serious physical and damage the relationship between the owner. We have learned that hitting kids is wrong why can we treat our good friends the same way? And remember, dogs do not speak English ( or any other language) They have to learn by repetition and it is a lifelong journey!

Beyonce practiced her concert for 8 months for a two hour show and yet we expect our dogs to pick up things so much quicker. Why is that? And no I am not a dog trainer but, I accept that I will work at where my dog is not where I want him to be.\

As to my friends they have used trainers but, this friend is too weak to actually walk the dog! The other partner can do it so they should let the one spouse be on walk duty and the other can come along for the exercise!

Not OP. Repeat to yourself, this is not my business. My opinion on prong collars is not shared by many others. I cannot and should not tell other people how they should handle training and walking their dog. Just because I think what I believe is right, does not make it so.

WRONG! Animals cannot speak for themselves! It is harmful to them. Did you even read the article? One dog almost lost their eye! If you saw a kid being beaten would you say "hey none of my business?" Some people beat their kids and they believe it is the right thing to do. NOOOO In fact I am going to double down and work on getting these things banned.

We have to speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves!

I am trained to used the prong collar. My very strong 120lb dog would drag anyone down. The prong teaches the DOG to self regulate. It's not the tool that is the problem, it is the people using it.

So in the old days kids were beaten if they gave the wrong answer. Do you agree that this method is inhumane? Your methods are wrong and you are causing the dog pain and harm. n You know in the past a lot of things were done "because they have always been done" but, times have changed. Have you even tried any other method? One that does not cause pain?

https://dogdiscoveries.com/uncategorized/vet-explains-the-dangers-of-prong-collars-in-dogs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see this argument a lot, that positive-only training works just as well as balanced training and takes 3 times as long. And that makes it better somehow? The longer an animal wanders around in confusion, the longer it takes to correct problems and the more dangerous the situation is.

FWIW, I could walk our golden just fine with a choke chain (probably could have used a flat collar but never tried) while my mother was hauled around with the prong collar. Goldens are great dogs but have necks like iron. They just don't care. While other methods may be needed to train a good walk, a prong collar won't hurt them.

Agree. I am like 90% percent positive, but the tools themselves are not an issue, it's how they're used. There are different types of prong collars, some better than others. The good ones where the owner is giving treats for walking well and the prong is a natural consequence of lunging, are fine. Especially on an older dog that hasn't been trained since very young or a dog that's not food-motivated. Positive only fails those dogs; balanced training is where it's at. These people should consult a trainer.

Op: I'm sorry but, "balanced training" is not where it is at. And btw, my discussion was also meant to discuss the article not just these particular friends. Let me give you an example...long time ago in schools there was a belief that corporal punishment helped kids learn or behave. Imagine today that your kid gets a wrong answer and instead of showing them where they made the mistake in a kind way they get hit on their hands with a ruler? If they are told that they are lazy and stupid? Will the child want to learn or will they give up?

All the aversive methods cause pain, fear and can do serious physical and damage the relationship between the owner. We have learned that hitting kids is wrong why can we treat our good friends the same way? And remember, dogs do not speak English ( or any other language) They have to learn by repetition and it is a lifelong journey!

Beyonce practiced her concert for 8 months for a two hour show and yet we expect our dogs to pick up things so much quicker. Why is that? And no I am not a dog trainer but, I accept that I will work at where my dog is not where I want him to be.\

As to my friends they have used trainers but, this friend is too weak to actually walk the dog! The other partner can do it so they should let the one spouse be on walk duty and the other can come along for the exercise!

Not OP. Repeat to yourself, this is not my business. My opinion on prong collars is not shared by many others. I cannot and should not tell other people how they should handle training and walking their dog. Just because I think what I believe is right, does not make it so.

WRONG! Animals cannot speak for themselves! It is harmful to them. Did you even read the article? One dog almost lost their eye! If you saw a kid being beaten would you say "hey none of my business?" Some people beat their kids and they believe it is the right thing to do. NOOOO In fact I am going to double down and work on getting these things banned.

We have to speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves!

Calm down, you sound dramatic. It is only harmful to the dog if the training tool is used incorrectly. I have put a sprenger prong collar on MY neck and pulled it hard, so I can tell you first hand its not pain... it is a pinch of discomfort. The ends on prong like the popular sprenger collar are not sharp unlike some cheaply made prong collars. Just because some idoits misused a tool doesnt mean they are inhumane tools... alcohol can be misused and therefore be dangerous, so can guns (dare I say it) - but we don't shame people for drinking alcohol and many in this country believe in the right to own a gun. It's not all about YOU and how it makes YOU feel.

op here yes of course I am the one who is "dramantic" Dogs cannot speak our language and yet are expected to instantly understand what we want. Btw, walking on a leash is very unnatural to dogs. But instead of taking time and training them humanely you use pain. You cannot compare alcohol or even drug to this situation. I would say it is more like dogs and children. Both cannot speak for themselves and need someone to protect them.

Don't fool yourself. Whether you are "trained" or not it is wrong. It is like saying well I used to hit my kid with a belt with spikes but, now I just hit them with my hand!

[Anonymous]

Can you suggest a gentle lead, canny collar, or no-pull harn

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can you suggest a gentle lead, canny collar, or no-pull harn

NP. We only used a prong collar for short leash training walks for our very large breed, and have used a gentle leader for the majority of walks. The Halti for example is a great option if your dog is not reactive. The downside to no-pull harnesses is that for most large breed dogs there's really no such thing - they still pull because the harness is only a very mild incentive to stop. I swear by the halti.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can you suggest a gentle lead, canny collar, or no-pull harn

NP. We only used a prong collar for short leash training walks for our very large breed, and have used a gentle leader for the majority of walks. The Halti for example is a great option if your dog is not reactive. The downside to no-pull harnesses is that for most large breed dogs there's really no such thing - they still pull because the harness is only a very mild incentive to stop. I swear by the halti.

Op "I only hit my kid with an open hand and when he does math" so that's not sooo bad right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can you suggest a gentle lead, canny collar, or no-pull harn

Head collars like the gentle leader or halti are likely to cause actual injury to the dog's neck if the dog lunges or pulls against them. The no-pull harnesses only work for some dogs, but are unlikely to cause injury to the dog. The person in question probably tried the more popular options before arriving at the use of a prong collar. It is apparently working for her.

[Anonymous]

OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

[Anonymous]

Can you advise them to hire a good trainer to come to their house and help them with training the dog to walk better on a leash?

That's what they need to do.

[Anonymous]

Prong collars are perfectly fine for some dogs. The real issue is that many(most?)
owners don't know how to properly use them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can you suggest a gentle lead, canny collar, or no-pull harn

Head collars like the gentle leader or halti are likely to cause actual injury to the dog's neck if the dog lunges or pulls against them. The no-pull harnesses only work for some dogs, but are unlikely to cause injury to the dog. The person in question probably tried the more popular options before arriving at the use of a prong collar. It is apparently working for her.

op here I told them not to tell me so I don't know but, hey causing pain for their dog means it's working than I guess it is!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Prong collars are perfectly fine for some dogs. The real issue is that many(most?)
owners don't know how to properly use them.

Op Wrong Wrong wrong!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can you advise them to hire a good trainer to come to their house and help them with training the dog to walk better on a leash?

That's what they need to do.

Op here. They told me they are "experienced" so they don't wish to hire any more trainers. I even volunteered my time. They thanked me for my "passion" Which basically means MYOB