Men want to care, but . . .

[Anonymous]

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/jul/18/men-want-to-care-but-social-structures-prevent-them-doing-more-at-home-report-finds

This article made me burst out laughing.

It’s an important issue, but the notion that most men are desperate to do more care in the family but are prevented by society? Oh please.

Plenty of men with plenty of time on their hands choosing to use it for their own leisure rather to to pick up a vacuum and get some stuff done around the house. I’m sure it’s the same all over.

[Anonymous]

Number 1 reason is likely a wife who insists the husband doesn’t do it well enough/correctly/quickly enough. Recall the wife who was mad at her husband for washing tissues.

If you don’t like how I do it enough to cause so much controversy, you can do it yourself.

[Anonymous]

I'm a woman married to a man who does his half, in childcare and around the house, both physical work and emotional/mental/logistical stuff.

I'll tell you right now - this article has a point. And if you are a woman in a heterosexual marriage who is unhappy with your workload balance, shrug this off at your peril.

OF COURSE men should just jump in, and of course there are men who are just lazy/don't care, and of course, that is the bigger obstacle.

But when my husband talks to his friends about family and childcare and chore balance, he hears this kind of thing a lot, and these men have a point. I see it on DCUM, too. Mom takes more leave up front. Mom is nursing. Mom/baby have a special bond. Dad falls into a "helper" role right off the bat. Yeah, he changes diapers, does night feedings, helps out around the house. But who packs the diaper bag or knows what the baby needs for a vacation? Mom. Who is making sure the baby has the next sized clothes? Mom. Who is talking with their friends about sleep training and reading books about it? Mom. Who has higher standards for things like housecleaning because they have internalized that it's their job and they'll be judged on it? Mom. And that sets you on a path. All of a sudden, the kid is two, mom is primary parent, and when Dad tried to jump in on stuff, he is corrected or pushed out of the way (and often for good reason - mom has more experience and knowledge!)

If you're a mom in this situation, you need to back off. You need to let your husband try and fail at stuff. You need to let him find his way as a parent even if it's not your way. You need to do some things his way. You will never get to an equitable balance where you are the manager and are delegating tasks and setting the standard by which they need to be done. Some examples from my own life:

1) My husband was in charge of potty training. He picked a book I wouldn't have picked, a system I wouldn't have picked, it took WAY longer that I would have liked. But I shut my trap and let it happen, and guess what? Our kid uses the potty now. And what was the biggest challenge for him? That when he reached out to his parent friends, they basically all said "Oh, I dunno, my wife read a book I think I don't know which one." Wildly unhelpful.

2) My husband is currently in charge of finding a nanny to start in September. There is not a single interview on my calendar for this yet. I am diligently staying out of it. I was talking to a neighbor who is upset about the chore balance with her husband and she straight up said "I couldn't do that. What if you don't have a nanny?" He'll figure it out. He's a grown man. If he doesn't, he'll troubleshoot. Not everything has to be done perfectly and on my time table.

3) We had (his) friends over for dinner over the weekend. He cooked a delicious meal. Was the house as clean as I'd like? Nope. In fact, one of his friends hadn't been to our house before and asked for a tour, and there was dirty clothes and cat vomit on the floor of our bedroom. So what? His friends, his clothes, his cat, his event. If he doesn't care if his friends see our room like that, then I will choose to not care, too.

And it all started with him taking 12 weeks of parental leave, 10 of which was solo.

We are wildly happy, the kids are well cared for, and I get plenty of downtime. You can have things your way or you can have an equal partner. You can't have both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Number 1 reason is likely a wife who insists the husband doesn’t do it well enough/correctly/quickly enough. Recall the wife who was mad at her husband for washing tissues.

If you don’t like how I do it enough to cause so much controversy, you can do it yourself.

I agree that sometimes it’s that women need to accept different ways of doing, but… in so many cases it’s that the task isn’t being DONE. It’s not a different way, it’s the wrong way.

Swishing a dirty rag in a dirty pot full of dirt water isn’t going to get that pot clean. Whenever DH and FIL do the dishes, crusted food is left sitting on pots and pans. In order to cook again, those items need to be rewashed. Unless you’re cool with old ground beef or fish skin being in the new food.

Just one example, but the stereotype of the hapless man is often true. Ante both of them (and so many other men I know) willfully not cleaning the pots well so they won’t be tasked with dishwashing? In my FIL’s instance, volunteering quietly to wash the dishes and not fully washing them… for 30 years? Why?

[Anonymous]

Men want to care, except the vast majority of Indian men surveyed…?
Seriously what does that part mean - that Indian men don’t do housework and also don’t feel any guilt over it?

[Anonymous]

Every woman on the planet believes her rules are the "right" rules for running a household. Let go of that notion and you will be a lot happier

[Anonymous]

As a guy my wife likes to do more housework than me as she does not work and I work 55 hours a week

So what

[Anonymous]

My husband is great but my father is truly the laziest grandpa of all time. My own grandfather used to play board games with us, take us to the movies or a park, made us tuna sandwiches. My mom was a sahm but hed take us once a week to give her a break. My dad watches them a few hours a week while we are both at work, sits them in front of YouTube and hands out cookies. And my dad is younger than my grandfather was. I know, I'm not entitled to free childcare, I just wish they'd make some happy memories.

[Anonymous]

When I got married, my mother told me the story that her mother told her. When my grandparents were newlyweds, her husband (my grandfather) cleaned the kitchen floor on hands and knees with rags instead of the mop. Grandma corrected him, told him the right way to do it - and he never cleaned the kitchen floor again. Lesson learned. From then on, she kept her mouth shut and he did lots of other stuff around the house.

Guys may do it differently. They may do it better or worse, more efficiently or less. Whatever. Express your appreciation. And keep your mouth shut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman married to a man who does his half, in childcare and around the house, both physical work and emotional/mental/logistical stuff.

I'll tell you right now - this article has a point. And if you are a woman in a heterosexual marriage who is unhappy with your workload balance, shrug this off at your peril.

OF COURSE men should just jump in, and of course there are men who are just lazy/don't care, and of course, that is the bigger obstacle.

But when my husband talks to his friends about family and childcare and chore balance, he hears this kind of thing a lot, and these men have a point. I see it on DCUM, too. Mom takes more leave up front. Mom is nursing. Mom/baby have a special bond. Dad falls into a "helper" role right off the bat. Yeah, he changes diapers, does night feedings, helps out around the house. But who packs the diaper bag or knows what the baby needs for a vacation? Mom. Who is making sure the baby has the next sized clothes? Mom. Who is talking with their friends about sleep training and reading books about it? Mom. Who has higher standards for things like housecleaning because they have internalized that it's their job and they'll be judged on it? Mom. And that sets you on a path. All of a sudden, the kid is two, mom is primary parent, and when Dad tried to jump in on stuff, he is corrected or pushed out of the way (and often for good reason - mom has more experience and knowledge!)

If you're a mom in this situation, you need to back off. You need to let your husband try and fail at stuff. You need to let him find his way as a parent even if it's not your way. You need to do some things his way. You will never get to an equitable balance where you are the manager and are delegating tasks and setting the standard by which they need to be done. Some examples from my own life:

1) My husband was in charge of potty training. He picked a book I wouldn't have picked, a system I wouldn't have picked, it took WAY longer that I would have liked. But I shut my trap and let it happen, and guess what? Our kid uses the potty now. And what was the biggest challenge for him? That when he reached out to his parent friends, they basically all said "Oh, I dunno, my wife read a book I think I don't know which one." Wildly unhelpful.

2) My husband is currently in charge of finding a nanny to start in September. There is not a single interview on my calendar for this yet. I am diligently staying out of it. I was talking to a neighbor who is upset about the chore balance with her husband and she straight up said "I couldn't do that. What if you don't have a nanny?" He'll figure it out. He's a grown man. If he doesn't, he'll troubleshoot. Not everything has to be done perfectly and on my time table.

3) We had (his) friends over for dinner over the weekend. He cooked a delicious meal. Was the house as clean as I'd like? Nope. In fact, one of his friends hadn't been to our house before and asked for a tour, and there was dirty clothes and cat vomit on the floor of our bedroom. So what? His friends, his clothes, his cat, his event. If he doesn't care if his friends see our room like that, then I will choose to not care, too.

And it all started with him taking 12 weeks of parental leave, 10 of which was solo.

We are wildly happy, the kids are well cared for, and I get plenty of downtime. You can have things your way or you can have an equal partner. You can't have both.

So you expect women to parent their husbands too? If he feels pushed aside, he is a grown man, he needs to use his words and have a conversation with his wife not just say "Oh she gets mad at me for doing it wrong so I don't."

[Anonymous]

We get furniture that requires assembly. When DW does it, she uses the wrong tools, gets the screws mixed up, and so on. But if I step in, she'll not take on furniture assembly so I let her. Yes, the little "men" on our foosball table wriggle around too much because she used the wrong length screw, but the kids don't seem to care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman married to a man who does his half, in childcare and around the house, both physical work and emotional/mental/logistical stuff.

I'll tell you right now - this article has a point. And if you are a woman in a heterosexual marriage who is unhappy with your workload balance, shrug this off at your peril.

OF COURSE men should just jump in, and of course there are men who are just lazy/don't care, and of course, that is the bigger obstacle.

But when my husband talks to his friends about family and childcare and chore balance, he hears this kind of thing a lot, and these men have a point. I see it on DCUM, too. Mom takes more leave up front. Mom is nursing. Mom/baby have a special bond. Dad falls into a "helper" role right off the bat. Yeah, he changes diapers, does night feedings, helps out around the house. But who packs the diaper bag or knows what the baby needs for a vacation? Mom. Who is making sure the baby has the next sized clothes? Mom. Who is talking with their friends about sleep training and reading books about it? Mom. Who has higher standards for things like housecleaning because they have internalized that it's their job and they'll be judged on it? Mom. And that sets you on a path. All of a sudden, the kid is two, mom is primary parent, and when Dad tried to jump in on stuff, he is corrected or pushed out of the way (and often for good reason - mom has more experience and knowledge!)

If you're a mom in this situation, you need to back off. You need to let your husband try and fail at stuff. You need to let him find his way as a parent even if it's not your way. You need to do some things his way. You will never get to an equitable balance where you are the manager and are delegating tasks and setting the standard by which they need to be done. Some examples from my own life:

1) My husband was in charge of potty training. He picked a book I wouldn't have picked, a system I wouldn't have picked, it took WAY longer that I would have liked. But I shut my trap and let it happen, and guess what? Our kid uses the potty now. And what was the biggest challenge for him? That when he reached out to his parent friends, they basically all said "Oh, I dunno, my wife read a book I think I don't know which one." Wildly unhelpful.

2) My husband is currently in charge of finding a nanny to start in September. There is not a single interview on my calendar for this yet. I am diligently staying out of it. I was talking to a neighbor who is upset about the chore balance with her husband and she straight up said "I couldn't do that. What if you don't have a nanny?" He'll figure it out. He's a grown man. If he doesn't, he'll troubleshoot. Not everything has to be done perfectly and on my time table.

3) We had (his) friends over for dinner over the weekend. He cooked a delicious meal. Was the house as clean as I'd like? Nope. In fact, one of his friends hadn't been to our house before and asked for a tour, and there was dirty clothes and cat vomit on the floor of our bedroom. So what? His friends, his clothes, his cat, his event. If he doesn't care if his friends see our room like that, then I will choose to not care, too.

And it all started with him taking 12 weeks of parental leave, 10 of which was solo.

We are wildly happy, the kids are well cared for, and I get plenty of downtime. You can have things your way or you can have an equal partner. You can't have both.

So you expect women to parent their husbands too? If he feels pushed aside, he is a grown man, he needs to use his words and have a conversation with his wife not just say "Oh she gets mad at me for doing it wrong so I don't."

PP here. No. I'm saying don't push him aside in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman married to a man who does his half, in childcare and around the house, both physical work and emotional/mental/logistical stuff.

I'll tell you right now - this article has a point. And if you are a woman in a heterosexual marriage who is unhappy with your workload balance, shrug this off at your peril.

OF COURSE men should just jump in, and of course there are men who are just lazy/don't care, and of course, that is the bigger obstacle.

But when my husband talks to his friends about family and childcare and chore balance, he hears this kind of thing a lot, and these men have a point. I see it on DCUM, too. Mom takes more leave up front. Mom is nursing. Mom/baby have a special bond. Dad falls into a "helper" role right off the bat. Yeah, he changes diapers, does night feedings, helps out around the house. But who packs the diaper bag or knows what the baby needs for a vacation? Mom. Who is making sure the baby has the next sized clothes? Mom. Who is talking with their friends about sleep training and reading books about it? Mom. Who has higher standards for things like housecleaning because they have internalized that it's their job and they'll be judged on it? Mom. And that sets you on a path. All of a sudden, the kid is two, mom is primary parent, and when Dad tried to jump in on stuff, he is corrected or pushed out of the way (and often for good reason - mom has more experience and knowledge!)

If you're a mom in this situation, you need to back off. You need to let your husband try and fail at stuff. You need to let him find his way as a parent even if it's not your way. You need to do some things his way. You will never get to an equitable balance where you are the manager and are delegating tasks and setting the standard by which they need to be done. Some examples from my own life:

1) My husband was in charge of potty training. He picked a book I wouldn't have picked, a system I wouldn't have picked, it took WAY longer that I would have liked. But I shut my trap and let it happen, and guess what? Our kid uses the potty now. And what was the biggest challenge for him? That when he reached out to his parent friends, they basically all said "Oh, I dunno, my wife read a book I think I don't know which one." Wildly unhelpful.

2) My husband is currently in charge of finding a nanny to start in September. There is not a single interview on my calendar for this yet. I am diligently staying out of it. I was talking to a neighbor who is upset about the chore balance with her husband and she straight up said "I couldn't do that. What if you don't have a nanny?" He'll figure it out. He's a grown man. If he doesn't, he'll troubleshoot. Not everything has to be done perfectly and on my time table.

3) We had (his) friends over for dinner over the weekend. He cooked a delicious meal. Was the house as clean as I'd like? Nope. In fact, one of his friends hadn't been to our house before and asked for a tour, and there was dirty clothes and cat vomit on the floor of our bedroom. So what? His friends, his clothes, his cat, his event. If he doesn't care if his friends see our room like that, then I will choose to not care, too.

And it all started with him taking 12 weeks of parental leave, 10 of which was solo.

We are wildly happy, the kids are well cared for, and I get plenty of downtime. You can have things your way or you can have an equal partner. You can't have both.

So you expect women to parent their husbands too? If he feels pushed aside, he is a grown man, he needs to use his words and have a conversation with his wife not just say "Oh she gets mad at me for doing it wrong so I don't."

NP. You've got it backwards. Your way is fighting. PP's way is a partnership, a marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Number 1 reason is likely a wife who insists the husband doesn’t do it well enough/correctly/quickly enough. Recall the wife who was mad at her husband for washing tissues.

If you don’t like how I do it enough to cause so much controversy, you can do it yourself.

I agree that sometimes it’s that women need to accept different ways of doing, but… in so many cases it’s that the task isn’t being DONE. It’s not a different way, it’s the wrong way.

Swishing a dirty rag in a dirty pot full of dirt water isn’t going to get that pot clean. Whenever DH and FIL do the dishes, crusted food is left sitting on pots and pans. In order to cook again, those items need to be rewashed. Unless you’re cool with old ground beef or fish skin being in the new food.

Just one example, but the stereotype of the hapless man is often true. Ante both of them (and so many other men I know) willfully not cleaning the pots well so they won’t be tasked with dishwashing? In my FIL’s instance, volunteering quietly to wash the dishes and not fully washing them… for 30 years? Why?

And how do you know that? Based on personal experience of multiple marriages? Women complain more, a lot more but that doesn't mean women do more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman married to a man who does his half, in childcare and around the house, both physical work and emotional/mental/logistical stuff.

I'll tell you right now - this article has a point. And if you are a woman in a heterosexual marriage who is unhappy with your workload balance, shrug this off at your peril.

OF COURSE men should just jump in, and of course there are men who are just lazy/don't care, and of course, that is the bigger obstacle.

But when my husband talks to his friends about family and childcare and chore balance, he hears this kind of thing a lot, and these men have a point. I see it on DCUM, too. Mom takes more leave up front. Mom is nursing. Mom/baby have a special bond. Dad falls into a "helper" role right off the bat. Yeah, he changes diapers, does night feedings, helps out around the house. But who packs the diaper bag or knows what the baby needs for a vacation? Mom. Who is making sure the baby has the next sized clothes? Mom. Who is talking with their friends about sleep training and reading books about it? Mom. Who has higher standards for things like housecleaning because they have internalized that it's their job and they'll be judged on it? Mom. And that sets you on a path. All of a sudden, the kid is two, mom is primary parent, and when Dad tried to jump in on stuff, he is corrected or pushed out of the way (and often for good reason - mom has more experience and knowledge!)

If you're a mom in this situation, you need to back off. You need to let your husband try and fail at stuff. You need to let him find his way as a parent even if it's not your way. You need to do some things his way. You will never get to an equitable balance where you are the manager and are delegating tasks and setting the standard by which they need to be done. Some examples from my own life:

1) My husband was in charge of potty training. He picked a book I wouldn't have picked, a system I wouldn't have picked, it took WAY longer that I would have liked. But I shut my trap and let it happen, and guess what? Our kid uses the potty now. And what was the biggest challenge for him? That when he reached out to his parent friends, they basically all said "Oh, I dunno, my wife read a book I think I don't know which one." Wildly unhelpful.

2) My husband is currently in charge of finding a nanny to start in September. There is not a single interview on my calendar for this yet. I am diligently staying out of it. I was talking to a neighbor who is upset about the chore balance with her husband and she straight up said "I couldn't do that. What if you don't have a nanny?" He'll figure it out. He's a grown man. If he doesn't, he'll troubleshoot. Not everything has to be done perfectly and on my time table.

3) We had (his) friends over for dinner over the weekend. He cooked a delicious meal. Was the house as clean as I'd like? Nope. In fact, one of his friends hadn't been to our house before and asked for a tour, and there was dirty clothes and cat vomit on the floor of our bedroom. So what? His friends, his clothes, his cat, his event. If he doesn't care if his friends see our room like that, then I will choose to not care, too.

And it all started with him taking 12 weeks of parental leave, 10 of which was solo.

We are wildly happy, the kids are well cared for, and I get plenty of downtime. You can have things your way or you can have an equal partner. You can't have both.

You have a willing partner. Many don’t. I wanted my DH to take his paternity solo. I asked him to research childcare options— he claimed he was too busy at work (mind you, I was working AND pregnant at the time). He wouldn’t do either. I wanted him to take the lead on solid foods— he agreed and then… didn’t. He would not stay alone with the baby until she was a year old. Oh and also, I had PPD, so this withdrawal in his part was not something I had mental bandwidth to deal with, while also doing all the parenting heavy lifting.

He just went into this frozen shell when we had a kid, deferred to me on everything even when I was actively trying to step back and let him take the lead. And this was a man who, before we had kids, talk about being a SAHD, pulling his weight, and was a fairly equal partner at home.

6 years later it’s better, but only because I’ve pushed and encouraged and set him up for success. Which is work in itself that no one did for me. And now people praise him all the time for being such an involved dad. No one praises me for being and involved mom. And I still do more than half.

You want to blame women for this problem because we LOVE BLAMING WOMEN. But this is on men and a culture that tells men from birth that caring for children and the home is women’s work, and women’s work isn’t for them.