Friend’s behavior is increasingly uncomfortable

[Anonymous]

I have a close friend who has always had a different way of navigating the world than I do. I’m pretty strait laced and my friend is more willing to flex the rules to benefit herself. Fine. I’ve always just thought I’m not going to participate in the stuff that’s a little gray area but she’s an adult so it’s not my role to stop her. Over the past year or so she’s told me about a few things that seem like outright fraud (think claiming something on insurance even though it wasn’t destroyed). She’s also been telling me about lying to or tricking other people in order to benefit herself. Im really wanting to distance myself but we’re very close friends and I don’t know how to slowly fade. In the past when I’ve dropped off a bit she gets aggressive in terms of the calls/texts so it’s not a situation where I can just slowly move on. I know I ignored some yellow flags in the beginning so please don’t tell me im an idiot for being friends with this person. She is in many ways good to be around and I didn’t really know the full extent until recently. Im sure some people would also be fine with the amount of lying she does, im just realizing it’s not for me.

[Anonymous]

She's not an ethical person. Maybe you need to call her out the next time she tells you one of her capers.

[Anonymous]

Have you tried talking to her about it? Explain that you feel what she's doing is unethical and cannot continue to be friends.

[Anonymous]

What do you like about being friends with her? In what ways is her friendship valuable to you?

Do you have many mutual friends? This impacts my advice on whether and how to slow fade.

I do think it might be hard to call her out on her behavior at this point if you've overlooked it for a long time. Also, if you are fairly close, be prepared for her to try and throw it back at you and point to anything you've ever done that could even be remotely viewed as unethical. Even if it's not at all comparable to her behavior. I would be very cautious about going this route unless you feel it's very important to do so -- I've only done something similar once and I think I had more right (their unethical behavior impacted me directly in a very harmful way) and it was still a miserable experience because, guess what, it turns out people who regularly bend the rules to accommodate themselves do not like being called out for that behavior at all and will then bend the truth to suit them as well.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you are already analyzing things about this friend, OP, which is healthy.

Keep in mind that others also can sense how unethical this friend is and then they see you being friends with her. That you are may not be a positive for you and your reputation. The "show me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are" thing.

[Anonymous]

You can just be completely honest and say "I think what you are doing is wrong and I need to distance myself." Why is that not an option?

[Anonymous]

I used to have a friend like this. Once a bunch of us were meeting at a park and I got there 15 minutes late. Everything seemed tense so I asked what was going on. They explained they found a wallet and the friend snatched it, took all the money from it and said she was going to put it in a mailbox for the post office to return. Everyone was upset she took the money. She said taking the money is like the wallet owner paying to get their credit cards and ID back. She'd steal toilet paper from restaurants if they had extra rolls. This gives you the idea of what she's like.

Honestly just ignore the texts and calls. Eventually she'll get the hint. Or be really blunt "These things you do make me uncomfortable and I don't want to be around people who scam companies." She will probably call you names at this point - just let her. Don't argue back - this is an agree to disagree situation.

[Anonymous]

OP here- thanks. I don’t want to call her out. She’s an adult and it’s not my role to police her. Also I’m certain it’s not that she thinks it’s okay, she knows it’s wrong so my pointing that out will only make her defensive and attack. I could sever the relationship and tell her why but I am afraid she’s not above making things up to harm me or my reputation. Yes, I know truth prevails, etc but I’d rather avoid a bunch of lies out there in our community and friend circle. That’s why I feel stuck. DH even said ‘yeah I’d be afraid of her.’ She’s told me more than one story of going out of her way to get revenge on someone she thinks wronged her (like a co-worker). It’s nothing physically harmful or illegal but she’s definitely made their lives unpleasant. I resonate a lot with the comment above about the company you keep reflecting who you are and that’s another reason id like to end it. I don’t think other people know nearly the amount of detail I do but I’m sure they sense some shadiness. As for what I like, she is in many ways a kind and generous friend to me and we have fun when we’re together. We have a lot in common in other ways which is how we became friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can just be completely honest and say "I think what you are doing is wrong and I need to distance myself." Why is that not an option?

NP and I agree with the approach above, but OP wrote this:

In the past when I’ve dropped off a bit she gets aggressive in terms of the calls/texts so it’s not a situation where I can just slowly move on.

To the OP: You sound somewhat afraid of her, frankly. Are you? When you say she "gets aggressive in terms of the calls/texts" do you mean you fear that if you say what the PP above recommends (in other words, direct and frank honesty, announcing you are done), she will bombard you with contact? Isn't it as likely that she'll just block you entirely?

I also agree with a poster above who notes that she might lash out by telling lies to make YOU out to be problematic or unethical, and others might choose to believe her. But neither that nor fear of her either bombarding you or blocking you should be reasons to remain friendly with her. This really is a case of her friendship being damaging to your soul, in a way; you clearly feel very queasy and wrong around her and you should not live with that. Do not try to change or convince her; she won't get it or try to be better. Don't try to slow fade--that sounds good but it only prolongs things. I'd tell her that the accumulated examples of her ethical problems--and if they are problems in your mind, they are problems, period!--means that you have decided to end the friendship and you are asking her not to contact you any more. It's sad, especially if she has a side that you like, but you are associating yourself, your reputation and your own ethics with someone you know for certain is unethical. And that kind of unethical is ultimately very self_centered as well>

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here- thanks. I don’t want to call her out. She’s an adult and it’s not my role to police her. Also I’m certain it’s not that she thinks it’s okay, she knows it’s wrong so my pointing that out will only make her defensive and attack. I could sever the relationship and tell her why but I am afraid she’s not above making things up to harm me or my reputation. Yes, I know truth prevails, etc but I’d rather avoid a bunch of lies out there in our community and friend circle. That’s why I feel stuck. DH even said ‘yeah I’d be afraid of her.’ She’s told me more than one story of going out of her way to get revenge on someone she thinks wronged her (like a co-worker). It’s nothing physically harmful or illegal but she’s definitely made their lives unpleasant. I resonate a lot with the comment above about the company you keep reflecting who you are and that’s another reason id like to end it. I don’t think other people know nearly the amount of detail I do but I’m sure they sense some shadiness. As for what I like, she is in many ways a kind and generous friend to me and we have fun when we’re together. We have a lot in common in other ways which is how we became friends.

Yes, but what do you plan to do, OP? Continue being her friend and spending time with her? I would want to vomit every time. Do you and she share a lot of people in this "friend circle" and in the community? That's the sticking point-- if you have a lot of contacts in common and they do not know, like you do, how truly horrible she is. What can she really do to make your life "unpleasant"? Asking seriously. Unless she could somehow damage me professionally at work or harm my kids' friendships and schooling, I likely would go ahead and burn that bridge, but I also admit I don't have a "friend circle" like people seem to describe here on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you need a more airtight excuse for dropping off with her, so that when she gets aggressive about hanging out, you can point to a neutral but strong reason that you can't. Over and over.

I think this is a situation where a white lie is merited, since it genuinely won't hurt anyone (in fact it will spare her feelings more than simply telling her what your issue is) and it will help extract you from a friendship that clearly IS hurting you.

The standard excuses are: health, kids, other family, work commitments. I don't even think you have to choose just one -- are any of these even remotely true? Rotate through. Summer schedule is all out of whack with kids out of school and travel, can't make it. Oh wow things started heating up a lot at work in September, maybe next time! My ILs are being really difficult about holidays this year, I have to focus on that, I'm sorry. I'm going a New Years thing where I really prioritize sleep and diet and self-care right now, so I'm really boring to hang out with right now -- going to bet at 9 every night and not drinking or eating out. And so on. Not a strict lie, but some exaggerations. I think if you just keep saying no, she will eventually move on. She might still lash out at you, but that's probably better than either a confrontation or continuing with the friendship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here- thanks. I don’t want to call her out. She’s an adult and it’s not my role to police her. Also I’m certain it’s not that she thinks it’s okay, she knows it’s wrong so my pointing that out will only make her defensive and attack. I could sever the relationship and tell her why but I am afraid she’s not above making things up to harm me or my reputation. Yes, I know truth prevails, etc but I’d rather avoid a bunch of lies out there in our community and friend circle. That’s why I feel stuck. DH even said ‘yeah I’d be afraid of her.’ She’s told me more than one story of going out of her way to get revenge on someone she thinks wronged her (like a co-worker). It’s nothing physically harmful or illegal but she’s definitely made their lives unpleasant. I resonate a lot with the comment above about the company you keep reflecting who you are and that’s another reason id like to end it. I don’t think other people know nearly the amount of detail I do but I’m sure they sense some shadiness. As for what I like, she is in many ways a kind and generous friend to me and we have fun when we’re together. We have a lot in common in other ways which is how we became friends.

Ahh, I understand what you're dealing with now. You need to become VERY busy. You are so sorry but you just don't have time to chat, to hang, to catch up, etc. Work is crazy, the kids are sick, the dog might be dying, pick a few and use white lies. This way she won't get angry at you and will turn to someone else to socialize with.

[Anonymous]

You absolutely need to distance yourself in a safe way, because it sounds as if she's getting worse, and she could really harm you and your family - not physically, but in other ways.

What sort of excuses do you think she'd fall for?

[Anonymous]

I agree with PP. she may not accept a slow fade. Could you develop a fake health problem and just talk about yourself and your toenail fungus or whatever incessantly? She doesn’t seem like the type who’d be okay with the relationship being all about you all the time.