Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn't even very good)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I hate about Taylor? How ubiquitous she is. She was on the cover of my grandmother’s Russian language senior citizen newspaper. Why or why? Nobody who reads that has ever heard of Taylor and they are not interested in her music. The only reason I saw it was because I was visiting my grandma in a nursing home. My grandma isn’t going to run out and buy her merchandise or go to a concert. Taylor and her PR team are just too much.

Hold on.
Let me get this straight.
YOU think, that Taylor Swift’s PR team planted:pushed a story to a Russian language granny magazine. YOU think that’s why that story was there, because Taylor Swift’s people put it there?
😂

DP. No you missed the point. The PP said what they hate about Taylor is "how ubiquitous she is." It doesn't matter why Taylor is on the cover of that magazine. Probably the magazine thought it would help them sell issues, though also I'm certain Taylor's PR team seeks to get her face as many places as they can because it helps Taylor to sell tickets, and actually a big part of Taylor's marketing these days is aimed at Gen X and Boomers because they are the ones who are often buying the tickets/merchandise for their millennial and Gen Z kids, so if Taylor can also turn them into fans, it will result in more $$ for her.

But regardless of who specifically made the decision to put Taylor on that cover, the point is that OP finds the ubiquity of Taylor Swift annoying. This is a very common phenomenon and it doesn't have to be something Taylor or her team are doing on purpose for it to annoy people. It's called being "overexposed" and it's a known PR problem, and I definitely think Taylor is/has tipped into that category over the last few months due to the Travis Kelce thing. I think if she and her team are smart, they'll pull back a bit. She's touring internationally in 2024 but especially once the NFL season is over, it would probably be beneficial for her to be seen less in tabloids/celebrity news for a while. Maybe disappear for about a year and then pop back up in 2025 with a new album.

No I read it correctly. The pp thinks she’s overexposed AND thinks the shadowy cabal of Taylor Swift comms dept is pushing stories to “Babushka’s Monthly”
And that’s hysterical
Honestly this thread has uncovered a previously unfathomable Venn diagram of conspiratorial thinkers and anti Swifties.
And frankly I’m so glad I’m here for it!
It’s been a real treat!

Why do you think a Taylor Swift story was on the cover of a Russian language Senior Citizen magazine that’s only available by subscription? You can’t buy this one at the store or in the stands, so people cannot be charmed by her great beauty to buy it. Its circulation is very small and limited to mostly Jewish Russian speaking Senior Citizens living in America. (They children and grandchildren do not read these.) Most of the ads are for Russian speaking doctors, lawyers and home health attendant services. It barely makes any money. Why do you think the editor decided to put Taylor on the cover?

Well I think it obvious!
The editor secretly works for Taylor Swift!!
Oh wait wait wait!
No, but he was handed a fat unmarked envelope in the depths of a parking garage late at night. There, a mysterious tall blonde woman, sporting a bold red lip, told him exactly what to print last month in “Matronly Matryoshka Monthly”.

I admire the obtuseness of rabid Taylor fans. It’s not that the above editor works for Taylor. It’s that her team has decided to release articles about her for little to no money. If the editor of some small obscure newspaper publishes an article about her (to fill space in an ad based tiny circulation paper), he or she doesn’t have to pay the usual fees. You have to be very unaware of how the publishing industry works to not get what’s going on here.

Taylor is the definition of overexposed and it’s because her team wants it that way. The bottom line is that she never made the leap from female tweens and their moms to the general public. And her team is desperate to get her there before she hits 40 and loses the tween audience. And if that means releasing her articles for free, so be it.

It’s the wrong angle, in my opinion.

If you think she’s just for teenagers, then you’ve probably missed Taylor mania. I know lots of people in their 40s and 50s that love her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I hate about Taylor? How ubiquitous she is. She was on the cover of my grandmother’s Russian language senior citizen newspaper. Why or why? Nobody who reads that has ever heard of Taylor and they are not interested in her music. The only reason I saw it was because I was visiting my grandma in a nursing home. My grandma isn’t going to run out and buy her merchandise or go to a concert. Taylor and her PR team are just too much.

Hold on.
Let me get this straight.
YOU think, that Taylor Swift’s PR team planted:pushed a story to a Russian language granny magazine. YOU think that’s why that story was there, because Taylor Swift’s people put it there?
😂

DP. No you missed the point. The PP said what they hate about Taylor is "how ubiquitous she is." It doesn't matter why Taylor is on the cover of that magazine. Probably the magazine thought it would help them sell issues, though also I'm certain Taylor's PR team seeks to get her face as many places as they can because it helps Taylor to sell tickets, and actually a big part of Taylor's marketing these days is aimed at Gen X and Boomers because they are the ones who are often buying the tickets/merchandise for their millennial and Gen Z kids, so if Taylor can also turn them into fans, it will result in more $$ for her.

But regardless of who specifically made the decision to put Taylor on that cover, the point is that OP finds the ubiquity of Taylor Swift annoying. This is a very common phenomenon and it doesn't have to be something Taylor or her team are doing on purpose for it to annoy people. It's called being "overexposed" and it's a known PR problem, and I definitely think Taylor is/has tipped into that category over the last few months due to the Travis Kelce thing. I think if she and her team are smart, they'll pull back a bit. She's touring internationally in 2024 but especially once the NFL season is over, it would probably be beneficial for her to be seen less in tabloids/celebrity news for a while. Maybe disappear for about a year and then pop back up in 2025 with a new album.

No I read it correctly. The pp thinks she’s overexposed AND thinks the shadowy cabal of Taylor Swift comms dept is pushing stories to “Babushka’s Monthly”
And that’s hysterical
Honestly this thread has uncovered a previously unfathomable Venn diagram of conspiratorial thinkers and anti Swifties.
And frankly I’m so glad I’m here for it!
It’s been a real treat!

Why do you think a Taylor Swift story was on the cover of a Russian language Senior Citizen magazine that’s only available by subscription? You can’t buy this one at the store or in the stands, so people cannot be charmed by her great beauty to buy it. Its circulation is very small and limited to mostly Jewish Russian speaking Senior Citizens living in America. (They children and grandchildren do not read these.) Most of the ads are for Russian speaking doctors, lawyers and home health attendant services. It barely makes any money. Why do you think the editor decided to put Taylor on the cover?

Well I think it obvious!
The editor secretly works for Taylor Swift!!
Oh wait wait wait!
No, but he was handed a fat unmarked envelope in the depths of a parking garage late at night. There, a mysterious tall blonde woman, sporting a bold red lip, told him exactly what to print last month in “Matronly Matryoshka Monthly”.

I admire the obtuseness of rabid Taylor fans. It’s not that the above editor works for Taylor. It’s that her team has decided to release articles about her for little to no money. If the editor of some small obscure newspaper publishes an article about her (to fill space in an ad based tiny circulation paper), he or she doesn’t have to pay the usual fees. You have to be very unaware of how the publishing industry works to not get what’s going on here.

Taylor is the definition of overexposed and it’s because her team wants it that way. The bottom line is that she never made the leap from female tweens and their moms to the general public. And her team is desperate to get her there before she hits 40 and loses the tween audience. And if that means releasing her articles for free, so be it.

It’s the wrong angle, in my opinion.

If you think she’s just for teenagers, then you’ve probably missed Taylor mania. I know lots of people in their 40s and 50s that love her.

I mentioned the moms, too. But men, even gay men are not interested.

[Anonymous]

I honestly cannot name one of her songs, even though I am exposed to them daily. There is nothing unique about them. Elevator music.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I hate about Taylor? How ubiquitous she is. She was on the cover of my grandmother’s Russian language senior citizen newspaper. Why or why? Nobody who reads that has ever heard of Taylor and they are not interested in her music. The only reason I saw it was because I was visiting my grandma in a nursing home. My grandma isn’t going to run out and buy her merchandise or go to a concert. Taylor and her PR team are just too much.

Hold on.
Let me get this straight.
YOU think, that Taylor Swift’s PR team planted:pushed a story to a Russian language granny magazine. YOU think that’s why that story was there, because Taylor Swift’s people put it there?
😂

DP. No you missed the point. The PP said what they hate about Taylor is "how ubiquitous she is." It doesn't matter why Taylor is on the cover of that magazine. Probably the magazine thought it would help them sell issues, though also I'm certain Taylor's PR team seeks to get her face as many places as they can because it helps Taylor to sell tickets, and actually a big part of Taylor's marketing these days is aimed at Gen X and Boomers because they are the ones who are often buying the tickets/merchandise for their millennial and Gen Z kids, so if Taylor can also turn them into fans, it will result in more $$ for her.

But regardless of who specifically made the decision to put Taylor on that cover, the point is that OP finds the ubiquity of Taylor Swift annoying. This is a very common phenomenon and it doesn't have to be something Taylor or her team are doing on purpose for it to annoy people. It's called being "overexposed" and it's a known PR problem, and I definitely think Taylor is/has tipped into that category over the last few months due to the Travis Kelce thing. I think if she and her team are smart, they'll pull back a bit. She's touring internationally in 2024 but especially once the NFL season is over, it would probably be beneficial for her to be seen less in tabloids/celebrity news for a while. Maybe disappear for about a year and then pop back up in 2025 with a new album.

No I read it correctly. The pp thinks she’s overexposed AND thinks the shadowy cabal of Taylor Swift comms dept is pushing stories to “Babushka’s Monthly”
And that’s hysterical
Honestly this thread has uncovered a previously unfathomable Venn diagram of conspiratorial thinkers and anti Swifties.
And frankly I’m so glad I’m here for it!
It’s been a real treat!

Why do you think a Taylor Swift story was on the cover of a Russian language Senior Citizen magazine that’s only available by subscription? You can’t buy this one at the store or in the stands, so people cannot be charmed by her great beauty to buy it. Its circulation is very small and limited to mostly Jewish Russian speaking Senior Citizens living in America. (They children and grandchildren do not read these.) Most of the ads are for Russian speaking doctors, lawyers and home health attendant services. It barely makes any money. Why do you think the editor decided to put Taylor on the cover?

Well I think it obvious!
The editor secretly works for Taylor Swift!!
Oh wait wait wait!
No, but he was handed a fat unmarked envelope in the depths of a parking garage late at night. There, a mysterious tall blonde woman, sporting a bold red lip, told him exactly what to print last month in “Matronly Matryoshka Monthly”.

I admire the obtuseness of rabid Taylor fans. It’s not that the above editor works for Taylor. It’s that her team has decided to release articles about her for little to no money. If the editor of some small obscure newspaper publishes an article about her (to fill space in an ad based tiny circulation paper), he or she doesn’t have to pay the usual fees. You have to be very unaware of how the publishing industry works to not get what’s going on here.

Taylor is the definition of overexposed and it’s because her team wants it that way. The bottom line is that she never made the leap from female tweens and their moms to the general public. And her team is desperate to get her there before she hits 40 and loses the tween audience. And if that means releasing her articles for free, so be it.

It’s the wrong angle, in my opinion.

If you think she’s just for teenagers, then you’ve probably missed Taylor mania. I know lots of people in their 40s and 50s that love her.

Also, each new generation of tweens becomes her fans. So she is constantly generating new fans. My 9 yo and all her friends are obsessed with Taylor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I hate about Taylor? How ubiquitous she is. She was on the cover of my grandmother’s Russian language senior citizen newspaper. Why or why? Nobody who reads that has ever heard of Taylor and they are not interested in her music. The only reason I saw it was because I was visiting my grandma in a nursing home. My grandma isn’t going to run out and buy her merchandise or go to a concert. Taylor and her PR team are just too much.

Hold on.
Let me get this straight.
YOU think, that Taylor Swift’s PR team planted:pushed a story to a Russian language granny magazine. YOU think that’s why that story was there, because Taylor Swift’s people put it there?
😂

DP. No you missed the point. The PP said what they hate about Taylor is "how ubiquitous she is." It doesn't matter why Taylor is on the cover of that magazine. Probably the magazine thought it would help them sell issues, though also I'm certain Taylor's PR team seeks to get her face as many places as they can because it helps Taylor to sell tickets, and actually a big part of Taylor's marketing these days is aimed at Gen X and Boomers because they are the ones who are often buying the tickets/merchandise for their millennial and Gen Z kids, so if Taylor can also turn them into fans, it will result in more $$ for her.

But regardless of who specifically made the decision to put Taylor on that cover, the point is that OP finds the ubiquity of Taylor Swift annoying. This is a very common phenomenon and it doesn't have to be something Taylor or her team are doing on purpose for it to annoy people. It's called being "overexposed" and it's a known PR problem, and I definitely think Taylor is/has tipped into that category over the last few months due to the Travis Kelce thing. I think if she and her team are smart, they'll pull back a bit. She's touring internationally in 2024 but especially once the NFL season is over, it would probably be beneficial for her to be seen less in tabloids/celebrity news for a while. Maybe disappear for about a year and then pop back up in 2025 with a new album.

No I read it correctly. The pp thinks she’s overexposed AND thinks the shadowy cabal of Taylor Swift comms dept is pushing stories to “Babushka’s Monthly”
And that’s hysterical
Honestly this thread has uncovered a previously unfathomable Venn diagram of conspiratorial thinkers and anti Swifties.
And frankly I’m so glad I’m here for it!
It’s been a real treat!

Why do you think a Taylor Swift story was on the cover of a Russian language Senior Citizen magazine that’s only available by subscription? You can’t buy this one at the store or in the stands, so people cannot be charmed by her great beauty to buy it. Its circulation is very small and limited to mostly Jewish Russian speaking Senior Citizens living in America. (They children and grandchildren do not read these.) Most of the ads are for Russian speaking doctors, lawyers and home health attendant services. It barely makes any money. Why do you think the editor decided to put Taylor on the cover?

Well I think it obvious!
The editor secretly works for Taylor Swift!!
Oh wait wait wait!
No, but he was handed a fat unmarked envelope in the depths of a parking garage late at night. There, a mysterious tall blonde woman, sporting a bold red lip, told him exactly what to print last month in “Matronly Matryoshka Monthly”.

I admire the obtuseness of rabid Taylor fans. It’s not that the above editor works for Taylor. It’s that her team has decided to release articles about her for little to no money. If the editor of some small obscure newspaper publishes an article about her (to fill space in an ad based tiny circulation paper), he or she doesn’t have to pay the usual fees. You have to be very unaware of how the publishing industry works to not get what’s going on here.

Taylor is the definition of overexposed and it’s because her team wants it that way. The bottom line is that she never made the leap from female tweens and their moms to the general public. And her team is desperate to get her there before she hits 40 and loses the tween audience. And if that means releasing her articles for free, so be it.

It’s the wrong angle, in my opinion.

If you think she’s just for teenagers, then you’ve probably missed Taylor mania. I know lots of people in their 40s and 50s that love her.

I mentioned the moms, too. But men, even gay men are not interested.

So you speak for all gay men? And even if it was true so what? There are enough girls/women who like her. If the women who hated represented everyone we wouldn't be talking about her.

Why do we need men's approval of what girls and
women like?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly cannot name one of her songs, even though I am exposed to them daily. There is nothing unique about them. Elevator music.

And that's a you problem. What song can we name of yours?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I hate about Taylor? How ubiquitous she is. She was on the cover of my grandmother’s Russian language senior citizen newspaper. Why or why? Nobody who reads that has ever heard of Taylor and they are not interested in her music. The only reason I saw it was because I was visiting my grandma in a nursing home. My grandma isn’t going to run out and buy her merchandise or go to a concert. Taylor and her PR team are just too much.

Hold on.
Let me get this straight.
YOU think, that Taylor Swift’s PR team planted:pushed a story to a Russian language granny magazine. YOU think that’s why that story was there, because Taylor Swift’s people put it there?
😂

DP. No you missed the point. The PP said what they hate about Taylor is "how ubiquitous she is." It doesn't matter why Taylor is on the cover of that magazine. Probably the magazine thought it would help them sell issues, though also I'm certain Taylor's PR team seeks to get her face as many places as they can because it helps Taylor to sell tickets, and actually a big part of Taylor's marketing these days is aimed at Gen X and Boomers because they are the ones who are often buying the tickets/merchandise for their millennial and Gen Z kids, so if Taylor can also turn them into fans, it will result in more $$ for her.

But regardless of who specifically made the decision to put Taylor on that cover, the point is that OP finds the ubiquity of Taylor Swift annoying. This is a very common phenomenon and it doesn't have to be something Taylor or her team are doing on purpose for it to annoy people. It's called being "overexposed" and it's a known PR problem, and I definitely think Taylor is/has tipped into that category over the last few months due to the Travis Kelce thing. I think if she and her team are smart, they'll pull back a bit. She's touring internationally in 2024 but especially once the NFL season is over, it would probably be beneficial for her to be seen less in tabloids/celebrity news for a while. Maybe disappear for about a year and then pop back up in 2025 with a new album.

No I read it correctly. The pp thinks she’s overexposed AND thinks the shadowy cabal of Taylor Swift comms dept is pushing stories to “Babushka’s Monthly”
And that’s hysterical
Honestly this thread has uncovered a previously unfathomable Venn diagram of conspiratorial thinkers and anti Swifties.
And frankly I’m so glad I’m here for it!
It’s been a real treat!

Why do you think a Taylor Swift story was on the cover of a Russian language Senior Citizen magazine that’s only available by subscription? You can’t buy this one at the store or in the stands, so people cannot be charmed by her great beauty to buy it. Its circulation is very small and limited to mostly Jewish Russian speaking Senior Citizens living in America. (They children and grandchildren do not read these.) Most of the ads are for Russian speaking doctors, lawyers and home health attendant services. It barely makes any money. Why do you think the editor decided to put Taylor on the cover?

Well I think it obvious!
The editor secretly works for Taylor Swift!!
Oh wait wait wait!
No, but he was handed a fat unmarked envelope in the depths of a parking garage late at night. There, a mysterious tall blonde woman, sporting a bold red lip, told him exactly what to print last month in “Matronly Matryoshka Monthly”.

I admire the obtuseness of rabid Taylor fans. It’s not that the above editor works for Taylor. It’s that her team has decided to release articles about her for little to no money. If the editor of some small obscure newspaper publishes an article about her (to fill space in an ad based tiny circulation paper), he or she doesn’t have to pay the usual fees. You have to be very unaware of how the publishing industry works to not get what’s going on here.

Taylor is the definition of overexposed and it’s because her team wants it that way. The bottom line is that she never made the leap from female tweens and their moms to the general public. And her team is desperate to get her there before she hits 40 and loses the tween audience. And if that means releasing her articles for free, so be it.

It’s the wrong angle, in my opinion.

If you think she’s just for teenagers, then you’ve probably missed Taylor mania. I know lots of people in their 40s and 50s that love her.

I mentioned the moms, too. But men, even gay men are not interested.

Im a straight man and think she’s awesome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly cannot name one of her songs, even though I am exposed to them daily. There is nothing unique about them. Elevator music.

How could you possibly know this if you don’t know any of her songs and have no idea if it’s even her singing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I mean I don't want to go analyzing Taylor Swift lyrics like they are poems because, as other PPs have pointed out, lyrics are really generally not supposed to stand alone in that way. But to give some examples of what I DO like in music lyrics that have poetic qualities:

Kurt Vile has a newish son, Another Good Year for the Roses. This song is actually a reference to a song by George Jones from the 70s (actually written by Jerry Chestnut, and later covered by a bunch of artists including Elvis Costello). I will give you some of those lyrics:

[Verse 1]
I can hardly bear the sight of lipstick
On the cigarettes there in the ashtray
Lying cold the way you left them
At least your lips caressed them while you packed
And a lip print on a half filled cup of coffee
That you poured and didn't drink
But at least you thought you wanted it
And that's so much more than I can say for me

[Chorus]
But what a good year for the roses
Many blooms still linger there
The lawn could stand another mowing
It's funny, I don't even care
When you turned and walked away
And as the door behind you closes
The only thing I know to say
It's been a good year for the roses

What I like about this is that it's so tight. In the first verse, it's kind of Taylor-esque, right? Very specific, self-focused, visual lyrics about a personal experience. But then look at the chorus, where it turns. We're not in a room watching a lover pack up while smoking a cigarette. Now we're outside, somebody's talking about what a good year it's been for the roses, which is a thing people say -- it feels so familiar and real because we've all heard people say stuff like that. But following the specificity of the first verse, this common, familiar saying takes on a new meaning. Suddenly it's evoking this kind of longing for something ephemeral, be it love that fades or roses that die. And then as the chorus closes, we're back in the room with the packed suitcase and the cigarettes on the ashtray, and the poetic voice is echoing that sentiment "it's been a good year for the roses" and now that sense of longing and loss feels really visceral. It belongs to the listener now, too.

These are very intentional choices -- the shift in focus, back and forth, from the room where the breakup is happening to a broader frame that incorporates a larger world where people are talking about the flowers, where the yard needs to be cut, and then back into the room. Those shifts suck the listener in. It's so crisp and expertly done.

Here's Swift on All Too Well, another song about breaking up:

I walked through the door with you
The air was cold
But something about it felt like home somehow
And I, left my scarf there at your sister's house
And you've still got it in your drawer even now
Oh, your sweet disposition
And my wide-eyed gaze
We're singing in the car, getting lost upstate
Autumn leaves falling down like pieces into place
And I can picture it after all these days
And I know it's long gone and that magic's not here no more
And I might be okay but I'm not fine at all
'Cause there we are again on that little town street
You almost ran the red 'cause you were lookin' over at me
Wind in my hair, I was there
I remember it all too well

Look, it's not terrible. But the difference is so clear to me. First off, there are too many visual details and they are not as evocative. Notice in the George Jones song, it selective about what they tell us -- we only get a few visual cues but the pack a punch. The cigarette with lipstick on it in the ashtray, a drink that is poured and undrunk, the lingering roses on the bushes, an overgrown lawn, a door closing. Literally there's a story there just from those visuals. But with Swift, we have: a door, cold air, a scarf in an unknown sisters house and then in a drawer somewhere else, the singer's "wide eyed gaze," then we're in a car up state, autumn leaves (just autumn leaves, we have to fill in the blank what they might look like), now we're on "that little town street," running a read light, he's looking at her, the wind in her hair.

It's a mess. It's just a list of details and they aren't very fully drawn at all. What does the scarf look like? Does it mean anything? Why is the air cold? Do the autumn leaves look like anything, do they make you feel something specific? Is there danger in running the red light? Is he looking at her in anger? Love? And also some of these details feel so trite. Of course they're upstate, it's fall, it's a little town, there's a scarf. These are also details from a dozen hallmark movies about a girl who is unlucky in love finding a guy in her hometown.

But the bigger issue -- where is the turn? Remember that shift in focus in the George Jones song? Laser focus on this one specific, emotionally charged moment in the first verse, then this pull back in the chorus that ends with a zoom in back on that moment. Very effective. With Swift, I'm looking at a montage from that hallmark movie, of generic "girl falls in love with a boy in picturesque small town" images that just pile one on top of the other, there's no turn, no shift in perspective, no purposeful effort to tell me something about WHY this story matters, whether to the person writing it or to the person listening. I'm just supposed to relate. Okay.

Again, songs aren't poetry, but a lot of the same principles apply. And Swift's lyrics tend to lack specificity, perspective, or subtext. Sometimes she uses metaphor and sometimes she can be a bit clever in the way she turns a phrase. But it still feels amateurish to me. Here's Courtney Barnett on Pedestrian at Best (great title) being more clever in one chorus than Swift has ever been:

Put me on a pedestal and I'll only disappoint you
Tell me I'm exceptional, I promise to exploit you
Give me all your money, and I'll make some origami, honey
I think you're a joke, but I don't find you very funny

I get that "give me all your money and I'll make some origami, honey" line in my head all the time -- it's funny, visually evocative, and transgressive all at once. I love it.

Meanwhile, here's Swift on Antihero, which I think is lyrically her best song to date:

Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism
Like some kind of congressman? (Tale as old as time)
I wake up screaming from dreaming
One day I'll watch as you're leaving
And life will lose all its meaning
(For the last time)

It even bears som resemblance to the Barnett lyric because of the multiple rhymes. And while "covert narcissism I disguise as altruism" has some charm, the rest is mushy in a way the Barnett lyric is not. It's undercooked. Both songs have really great composition, but the way those Barnett lyrics sit in the song is so perfect. With Antihero, I feel like it's almost something, but not quite.

Anyway, that's what I've got from a quick read, this is why I am not overly impressed with Swift as a lyricist. Pedestrian at best (haha).

NP, swift fan. I really loved this analysis and it makes sense! I think Liz Rose has basically described herself as Taylor’s editor (for example in all too well, which you quoted). Taylor came in with like 15 minutes of a song and Liz took out a pen and wrote down the best parts as Taylor sang, and then helped her build it back into a song. She collaborates well (which to me shows lack of ego, impressive at her level of fame) and works hard but definitely could continue refining lyrics and her understanding of poetry. Thanks for this, PP, it made me think and a nice escape from the rest of this thread.

Dp. To the pp who needs their own editor. When you say you hate TS because it is basic you are basically saying the fans are also basic. But, the truth of the matter is TS is wildly successful and that contradicts your assessment. In our society basic people aren't as financially successful. If it was so easy why aren't there more TS? And at root it is basic jealously than has all you haters overanalysing her words.
I like REM for example but it isnt because of the words. It is the music.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I hate about Taylor? How ubiquitous she is. She was on the cover of my grandmother’s Russian language senior citizen newspaper. Why or why? Nobody who reads that has ever heard of Taylor and they are not interested in her music. The only reason I saw it was because I was visiting my grandma in a nursing home. My grandma isn’t going to run out and buy her merchandise or go to a concert. Taylor and her PR team are just too much.

Hold on.
Let me get this straight.
YOU think, that Taylor Swift’s PR team planted:pushed a story to a Russian language granny magazine. YOU think that’s why that story was there, because Taylor Swift’s people put it there?
😂

DP. No you missed the point. The PP said what they hate about Taylor is "how ubiquitous she is." It doesn't matter why Taylor is on the cover of that magazine. Probably the magazine thought it would help them sell issues, though also I'm certain Taylor's PR team seeks to get her face as many places as they can because it helps Taylor to sell tickets, and actually a big part of Taylor's marketing these days is aimed at Gen X and Boomers because they are the ones who are often buying the tickets/merchandise for their millennial and Gen Z kids, so if Taylor can also turn them into fans, it will result in more $$ for her.

But regardless of who specifically made the decision to put Taylor on that cover, the point is that OP finds the ubiquity of Taylor Swift annoying. This is a very common phenomenon and it doesn't have to be something Taylor or her team are doing on purpose for it to annoy people. It's called being "overexposed" and it's a known PR problem, and I definitely think Taylor is/has tipped into that category over the last few months due to the Travis Kelce thing. I think if she and her team are smart, they'll pull back a bit. She's touring internationally in 2024 but especially once the NFL season is over, it would probably be beneficial for her to be seen less in tabloids/celebrity news for a while. Maybe disappear for about a year and then pop back up in 2025 with a new album.

No I read it correctly. The pp thinks she’s overexposed AND thinks the shadowy cabal of Taylor Swift comms dept is pushing stories to “Babushka’s Monthly”
And that’s hysterical
Honestly this thread has uncovered a previously unfathomable Venn diagram of conspiratorial thinkers and anti Swifties.
And frankly I’m so glad I’m here for it!
It’s been a real treat!

Why do you think a Taylor Swift story was on the cover of a Russian language Senior Citizen magazine that’s only available by subscription? You can’t buy this one at the store or in the stands, so people cannot be charmed by her great beauty to buy it. Its circulation is very small and limited to mostly Jewish Russian speaking Senior Citizens living in America. (They children and grandchildren do not read these.) Most of the ads are for Russian speaking doctors, lawyers and home health attendant services. It barely makes any money. Why do you think the editor decided to put Taylor on the cover?

Well I think it obvious!
The editor secretly works for Taylor Swift!!
Oh wait wait wait!
No, but he was handed a fat unmarked envelope in the depths of a parking garage late at night. There, a mysterious tall blonde woman, sporting a bold red lip, told him exactly what to print last month in “Matronly Matryoshka Monthly”.

I admire the obtuseness of rabid Taylor fans. It’s not that the above editor works for Taylor. It’s that her team has decided to release articles about her for little to no money. If the editor of some small obscure newspaper publishes an article about her (to fill space in an ad based tiny circulation paper), he or she doesn’t have to pay the usual fees. You have to be very unaware of how the publishing industry works to not get what’s going on here.

Taylor is the definition of overexposed and it’s because her team wants it that way. The bottom line is that she never made the leap from female tweens and their moms to the general public. And her team is desperate to get her there before she hits 40 and loses the tween audience. And if that means releasing her articles for free, so be it.

It’s the wrong angle, in my opinion.

If you think she’s just for teenagers, then you’ve probably missed Taylor mania. I know lots of people in their 40s and 50s that love her.

I mentioned the moms, too. But men, even gay men are not interested.

Im a straight man and think she’s awesome.

That’s great, but you are in the minority for men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I hate about Taylor? How ubiquitous she is. She was on the cover of my grandmother’s Russian language senior citizen newspaper. Why or why? Nobody who reads that has ever heard of Taylor and they are not interested in her music. The only reason I saw it was because I was visiting my grandma in a nursing home. My grandma isn’t going to run out and buy her merchandise or go to a concert. Taylor and her PR team are just too much.

Hold on.
Let me get this straight.
YOU think, that Taylor Swift’s PR team planted:pushed a story to a Russian language granny magazine. YOU think that’s why that story was there, because Taylor Swift’s people put it there?
😂

DP. No you missed the point. The PP said what they hate about Taylor is "how ubiquitous she is." It doesn't matter why Taylor is on the cover of that magazine. Probably the magazine thought it would help them sell issues, though also I'm certain Taylor's PR team seeks to get her face as many places as they can because it helps Taylor to sell tickets, and actually a big part of Taylor's marketing these days is aimed at Gen X and Boomers because they are the ones who are often buying the tickets/merchandise for their millennial and Gen Z kids, so if Taylor can also turn them into fans, it will result in more $$ for her.

But regardless of who specifically made the decision to put Taylor on that cover, the point is that OP finds the ubiquity of Taylor Swift annoying. This is a very common phenomenon and it doesn't have to be something Taylor or her team are doing on purpose for it to annoy people. It's called being "overexposed" and it's a known PR problem, and I definitely think Taylor is/has tipped into that category over the last few months due to the Travis Kelce thing. I think if she and her team are smart, they'll pull back a bit. She's touring internationally in 2024 but especially once the NFL season is over, it would probably be beneficial for her to be seen less in tabloids/celebrity news for a while. Maybe disappear for about a year and then pop back up in 2025 with a new album.

No I read it correctly. The pp thinks she’s overexposed AND thinks the shadowy cabal of Taylor Swift comms dept is pushing stories to “Babushka’s Monthly”
And that’s hysterical
Honestly this thread has uncovered a previously unfathomable Venn diagram of conspiratorial thinkers and anti Swifties.
And frankly I’m so glad I’m here for it!
It’s been a real treat!

Why do you think a Taylor Swift story was on the cover of a Russian language Senior Citizen magazine that’s only available by subscription? You can’t buy this one at the store or in the stands, so people cannot be charmed by her great beauty to buy it. Its circulation is very small and limited to mostly Jewish Russian speaking Senior Citizens living in America. (They children and grandchildren do not read these.) Most of the ads are for Russian speaking doctors, lawyers and home health attendant services. It barely makes any money. Why do you think the editor decided to put Taylor on the cover?

Well I think it obvious!
The editor secretly works for Taylor Swift!!
Oh wait wait wait!
No, but he was handed a fat unmarked envelope in the depths of a parking garage late at night. There, a mysterious tall blonde woman, sporting a bold red lip, told him exactly what to print last month in “Matronly Matryoshka Monthly”.

I admire the obtuseness of rabid Taylor fans. It’s not that the above editor works for Taylor. It’s that her team has decided to release articles about her for little to no money. If the editor of some small obscure newspaper publishes an article about her (to fill space in an ad based tiny circulation paper), he or she doesn’t have to pay the usual fees. You have to be very unaware of how the publishing industry works to not get what’s going on here.

Taylor is the definition of overexposed and it’s because her team wants it that way. The bottom line is that she never made the leap from female tweens and their moms to the general public. And her team is desperate to get her there before she hits 40 and loses the tween audience. And if that means releasing her articles for free, so be it.

It’s the wrong angle, in my opinion.

If you think she’s just for teenagers, then you’ve probably missed Taylor mania. I know lots of people in their 40s and 50s that love her.

Also, each new generation of tweens becomes her fans. So she is constantly generating new fans. My 9 yo and all her friends are obsessed with Taylor.

Yes, that was kinda the point. Your 9 year old loves her, because Taylor is still young enough. But in ten years, 9 year old girls are not going to identify with a 44 year old woman, singing songs about teen heartbreak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I mean I don't want to go analyzing Taylor Swift lyrics like they are poems because, as other PPs have pointed out, lyrics are really generally not supposed to stand alone in that way. But to give some examples of what I DO like in music lyrics that have poetic qualities:

Kurt Vile has a newish son, Another Good Year for the Roses. This song is actually a reference to a song by George Jones from the 70s (actually written by Jerry Chestnut, and later covered by a bunch of artists including Elvis Costello). I will give you some of those lyrics:

[Verse 1]
I can hardly bear the sight of lipstick
On the cigarettes there in the ashtray
Lying cold the way you left them
At least your lips caressed them while you packed
And a lip print on a half filled cup of coffee
That you poured and didn't drink
But at least you thought you wanted it
And that's so much more than I can say for me

[Chorus]
But what a good year for the roses
Many blooms still linger there
The lawn could stand another mowing
It's funny, I don't even care
When you turned and walked away
And as the door behind you closes
The only thing I know to say
It's been a good year for the roses

What I like about this is that it's so tight. In the first verse, it's kind of Taylor-esque, right? Very specific, self-focused, visual lyrics about a personal experience. But then look at the chorus, where it turns. We're not in a room watching a lover pack up while smoking a cigarette. Now we're outside, somebody's talking about what a good year it's been for the roses, which is a thing people say -- it feels so familiar and real because we've all heard people say stuff like that. But following the specificity of the first verse, this common, familiar saying takes on a new meaning. Suddenly it's evoking this kind of longing for something ephemeral, be it love that fades or roses that die. And then as the chorus closes, we're back in the room with the packed suitcase and the cigarettes on the ashtray, and the poetic voice is echoing that sentiment "it's been a good year for the roses" and now that sense of longing and loss feels really visceral. It belongs to the listener now, too.

These are very intentional choices -- the shift in focus, back and forth, from the room where the breakup is happening to a broader frame that incorporates a larger world where people are talking about the flowers, where the yard needs to be cut, and then back into the room. Those shifts suck the listener in. It's so crisp and expertly done.

Here's Swift on All Too Well, another song about breaking up:

I walked through the door with you
The air was cold
But something about it felt like home somehow
And I, left my scarf there at your sister's house
And you've still got it in your drawer even now
Oh, your sweet disposition
And my wide-eyed gaze
We're singing in the car, getting lost upstate
Autumn leaves falling down like pieces into place
And I can picture it after all these days
And I know it's long gone and that magic's not here no more
And I might be okay but I'm not fine at all
'Cause there we are again on that little town street
You almost ran the red 'cause you were lookin' over at me
Wind in my hair, I was there
I remember it all too well

Look, it's not terrible. But the difference is so clear to me. First off, there are too many visual details and they are not as evocative. Notice in the George Jones song, it selective about what they tell us -- we only get a few visual cues but the pack a punch. The cigarette with lipstick on it in the ashtray, a drink that is poured and undrunk, the lingering roses on the bushes, an overgrown lawn, a door closing. Literally there's a story there just from those visuals. But with Swift, we have: a door, cold air, a scarf in an unknown sisters house and then in a drawer somewhere else, the singer's "wide eyed gaze," then we're in a car up state, autumn leaves (just autumn leaves, we have to fill in the blank what they might look like), now we're on "that little town street," running a read light, he's looking at her, the wind in her hair.

It's a mess. It's just a list of details and they aren't very fully drawn at all. What does the scarf look like? Does it mean anything? Why is the air cold? Do the autumn leaves look like anything, do they make you feel something specific? Is there danger in running the red light? Is he looking at her in anger? Love? And also some of these details feel so trite. Of course they're upstate, it's fall, it's a little town, there's a scarf. These are also details from a dozen hallmark movies about a girl who is unlucky in love finding a guy in her hometown.

But the bigger issue -- where is the turn? Remember that shift in focus in the George Jones song? Laser focus on this one specific, emotionally charged moment in the first verse, then this pull back in the chorus that ends with a zoom in back on that moment. Very effective. With Swift, I'm looking at a montage from that hallmark movie, of generic "girl falls in love with a boy in picturesque small town" images that just pile one on top of the other, there's no turn, no shift in perspective, no purposeful effort to tell me something about WHY this story matters, whether to the person writing it or to the person listening. I'm just supposed to relate. Okay.

Again, songs aren't poetry, but a lot of the same principles apply. And Swift's lyrics tend to lack specificity, perspective, or subtext. Sometimes she uses metaphor and sometimes she can be a bit clever in the way she turns a phrase. But it still feels amateurish to me. Here's Courtney Barnett on Pedestrian at Best (great title) being more clever in one chorus than Swift has ever been:

Put me on a pedestal and I'll only disappoint you
Tell me I'm exceptional, I promise to exploit you
Give me all your money, and I'll make some origami, honey
I think you're a joke, but I don't find you very funny

I get that "give me all your money and I'll make some origami, honey" line in my head all the time -- it's funny, visually evocative, and transgressive all at once. I love it.

Meanwhile, here's Swift on Antihero, which I think is lyrically her best song to date:

Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism
Like some kind of congressman? (Tale as old as time)
I wake up screaming from dreaming
One day I'll watch as you're leaving
And life will lose all its meaning
(For the last time)

It even bears som resemblance to the Barnett lyric because of the multiple rhymes. And while "covert narcissism I disguise as altruism" has some charm, the rest is mushy in a way the Barnett lyric is not. It's undercooked. Both songs have really great composition, but the way those Barnett lyrics sit in the song is so perfect. With Antihero, I feel like it's almost something, but not quite.

Anyway, that's what I've got from a quick read, this is why I am not overly impressed with Swift as a lyricist. Pedestrian at best (haha).

NP, swift fan. I really loved this analysis and it makes sense! I think Liz Rose has basically described herself as Taylor’s editor (for example in all too well, which you quoted). Taylor came in with like 15 minutes of a song and Liz took out a pen and wrote down the best parts as Taylor sang, and then helped her build it back into a song. She collaborates well (which to me shows lack of ego, impressive at her level of fame) and works hard but definitely could continue refining lyrics and her understanding of poetry. Thanks for this, PP, it made me think and a nice escape from the rest of this thread.

Dp. To the pp who needs their own editor. When you say you hate TS because it is basic you are basically saying the fans are also basic. But, the truth of the matter is TS is wildly successful and that contradicts your assessment. In our society basic people aren't as financially successful. If it was so easy why aren't there more TS? And at root it is basic jealously than has all you haters overanalysing her words.
I like REM for example but it isnt because of the words. It is the music.

1. Saying Taylor Swift's music is basic (this comment was only about her music, not her as a person) is not like saying her fans are basic. I like lots of basic stuff. I'm not basic.

2. Basic stuff is often wildly successful. Starbucks. Shows like The Big Bang Theory. There's no rule that something needs to be complex to succeed. In fact the opposite is often true.

3. Literally I was asked to provide an analysis of Swift's lyrics and did so. I don't hate her and I'm not jealous. I have tried to like her music and I don't, and I explained why. I'm an academic so generating a lot of words on something like this is easy for me, not evidence of strong feelings on the matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly cannot name one of her songs, even though I am exposed to them daily. There is nothing unique about them. Elevator music.

And that's a you problem. What song can we name of yours?

Well, since I am not a singer, none🤷‍♀️ What a stupid comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I mean I don't want to go analyzing Taylor Swift lyrics like they are poems because, as other PPs have pointed out, lyrics are really generally not supposed to stand alone in that way. But to give some examples of what I DO like in music lyrics that have poetic qualities:

Kurt Vile has a newish son, Another Good Year for the Roses. This song is actually a reference to a song by George Jones from the 70s (actually written by Jerry Chestnut, and later covered by a bunch of artists including Elvis Costello). I will give you some of those lyrics:

[Verse 1]
I can hardly bear the sight of lipstick
On the cigarettes there in the ashtray
Lying cold the way you left them
At least your lips caressed them while you packed
And a lip print on a half filled cup of coffee
That you poured and didn't drink
But at least you thought you wanted it
And that's so much more than I can say for me

[Chorus]
But what a good year for the roses
Many blooms still linger there
The lawn could stand another mowing
It's funny, I don't even care
When you turned and walked away
And as the door behind you closes
The only thing I know to say
It's been a good year for the roses

What I like about this is that it's so tight. In the first verse, it's kind of Taylor-esque, right? Very specific, self-focused, visual lyrics about a personal experience. But then look at the chorus, where it turns. We're not in a room watching a lover pack up while smoking a cigarette. Now we're outside, somebody's talking about what a good year it's been for the roses, which is a thing people say -- it feels so familiar and real because we've all heard people say stuff like that. But following the specificity of the first verse, this common, familiar saying takes on a new meaning. Suddenly it's evoking this kind of longing for something ephemeral, be it love that fades or roses that die. And then as the chorus closes, we're back in the room with the packed suitcase and the cigarettes on the ashtray, and the poetic voice is echoing that sentiment "it's been a good year for the roses" and now that sense of longing and loss feels really visceral. It belongs to the listener now, too.

These are very intentional choices -- the shift in focus, back and forth, from the room where the breakup is happening to a broader frame that incorporates a larger world where people are talking about the flowers, where the yard needs to be cut, and then back into the room. Those shifts suck the listener in. It's so crisp and expertly done.

Here's Swift on All Too Well, another song about breaking up:

I walked through the door with you
The air was cold
But something about it felt like home somehow
And I, left my scarf there at your sister's house
And you've still got it in your drawer even now
Oh, your sweet disposition
And my wide-eyed gaze
We're singing in the car, getting lost upstate
Autumn leaves falling down like pieces into place
And I can picture it after all these days
And I know it's long gone and that magic's not here no more
And I might be okay but I'm not fine at all
'Cause there we are again on that little town street
You almost ran the red 'cause you were lookin' over at me
Wind in my hair, I was there
I remember it all too well

Look, it's not terrible. But the difference is so clear to me. First off, there are too many visual details and they are not as evocative. Notice in the George Jones song, it selective about what they tell us -- we only get a few visual cues but the pack a punch. The cigarette with lipstick on it in the ashtray, a drink that is poured and undrunk, the lingering roses on the bushes, an overgrown lawn, a door closing. Literally there's a story there just from those visuals. But with Swift, we have: a door, cold air, a scarf in an unknown sisters house and then in a drawer somewhere else, the singer's "wide eyed gaze," then we're in a car up state, autumn leaves (just autumn leaves, we have to fill in the blank what they might look like), now we're on "that little town street," running a read light, he's looking at her, the wind in her hair.

It's a mess. It's just a list of details and they aren't very fully drawn at all. What does the scarf look like? Does it mean anything? Why is the air cold? Do the autumn leaves look like anything, do they make you feel something specific? Is there danger in running the red light? Is he looking at her in anger? Love? And also some of these details feel so trite. Of course they're upstate, it's fall, it's a little town, there's a scarf. These are also details from a dozen hallmark movies about a girl who is unlucky in love finding a guy in her hometown.

But the bigger issue -- where is the turn? Remember that shift in focus in the George Jones song? Laser focus on this one specific, emotionally charged moment in the first verse, then this pull back in the chorus that ends with a zoom in back on that moment. Very effective. With Swift, I'm looking at a montage from that hallmark movie, of generic "girl falls in love with a boy in picturesque small town" images that just pile one on top of the other, there's no turn, no shift in perspective, no purposeful effort to tell me something about WHY this story matters, whether to the person writing it or to the person listening. I'm just supposed to relate. Okay.

Again, songs aren't poetry, but a lot of the same principles apply. And Swift's lyrics tend to lack specificity, perspective, or subtext. Sometimes she uses metaphor and sometimes she can be a bit clever in the way she turns a phrase. But it still feels amateurish to me. Here's Courtney Barnett on Pedestrian at Best (great title) being more clever in one chorus than Swift has ever been:

Put me on a pedestal and I'll only disappoint you
Tell me I'm exceptional, I promise to exploit you
Give me all your money, and I'll make some origami, honey
I think you're a joke, but I don't find you very funny

I get that "give me all your money and I'll make some origami, honey" line in my head all the time -- it's funny, visually evocative, and transgressive all at once. I love it.

Meanwhile, here's Swift on Antihero, which I think is lyrically her best song to date:

Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism
Like some kind of congressman? (Tale as old as time)
I wake up screaming from dreaming
One day I'll watch as you're leaving
And life will lose all its meaning
(For the last time)

It even bears som resemblance to the Barnett lyric because of the multiple rhymes. And while "covert narcissism I disguise as altruism" has some charm, the rest is mushy in a way the Barnett lyric is not. It's undercooked. Both songs have really great composition, but the way those Barnett lyrics sit in the song is so perfect. With Antihero, I feel like it's almost something, but not quite.

Anyway, that's what I've got from a quick read, this is why I am not overly impressed with Swift as a lyricist. Pedestrian at best (haha).

NP, swift fan. I really loved this analysis and it makes sense! I think Liz Rose has basically described herself as Taylor’s editor (for example in all too well, which you quoted). Taylor came in with like 15 minutes of a song and Liz took out a pen and wrote down the best parts as Taylor sang, and then helped her build it back into a song. She collaborates well (which to me shows lack of ego, impressive at her level of fame) and works hard but definitely could continue refining lyrics and her understanding of poetry. Thanks for this, PP, it made me think and a nice escape from the rest of this thread.

Wow. I loved this analysis too. Very interesting. Wish I was friends with you IRL would make for fun and thoughtful discussions. Kudos!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly cannot name one of her songs, even though I am exposed to them daily. There is nothing unique about them. Elevator music.

And that's a you problem. What song can we name of yours?

Well, since I am not a singer, none🤷‍♀️ What a stupid comment.

Dp- the point is that everyone’s a critic! Everyone is so quick to sh—— all over her song writing, but if it were easy, we’d all be doing it.
Except for the people who don’t believe she writes her music, or inexplicably believe she’s cribbing off U2, and pushing stories to niche geriatric magazines. 😂
I think she definitely writes her own stuff because it all sounds the same and it all sounds so so so mild. And that’s ok!
You can enjoy her and not be a Swiftie.
You can acknowledge that she has some really clunky lyrics and some pretty good ones.
Don’t let her take football from you! She’s not bothering you from the box.
Chill.