Family of six killed by depressed and suicidal 19-year-old

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

No

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Agreed.

[Anonymous]

There is some great information about studies of mental illness and violent behavior here: https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/evidence-and-research/learn-more-about/3633-risk-factors-for-violence-in-serious-mental-illness

This is also an organization that is working on reform of the civil commitment laws to enable better interventions before unstable mentally ill patients engage in violence in the community.

The short answer is that while the vast majority of persons suffering from mental illness are not violent, a very substantial percentage are - and the critical factors are being UNSTABLE (i.e., untreated) and having a co-occuring substance abuse diagnosis, which is incredibly common among untreated mentally ill persons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is some great information about studies of mental illness and violent behavior here: https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/evidence-and-research/learn-more-about/3633-risk-factors-for-violence-in-serious-mental-illness

This is also an organization that is working on reform of the civil commitment laws to enable better interventions before unstable mentally ill patients engage in violence in the community.

The short answer is that while the vast majority of persons suffering from mental illness are not violent, a very substantial percentage are - and the critical factors are being UNSTABLE (i.e., untreated) and having a co-occuring substance abuse diagnosis, which is incredibly common among untreated mentally ill persons.

All of the studies at the link are of people with schizophrenia spectrum disorders or serious untreated mental illness. These are not studies of all people with mental health problems, and certainly not studies of the more than 17 million Americans who have experienced depressive episodes.

Depression does not make you a murderer. Some people who kill or harm others have depression. But as you yourself point out, they are unstable (untreated) and often have substance abuse problems. Those are serious complicating factors! Substance abuse is a major cause of violence in this country.

And the great irony here is that the more we stigmatize mental health issues, the more people will remain untreated because of fear of stigma. Stop stigmatizing mental illness. You are making the problem worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is some great information about studies of mental illness and violent behavior here: https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/evidence-and-research/learn-more-about/3633-risk-factors-for-violence-in-serious-mental-illness

This is also an organization that is working on reform of the civil commitment laws to enable better interventions before unstable mentally ill patients engage in violence in the community.

The short answer is that while the vast majority of persons suffering from mental illness are not violent, a very substantial percentage are - and the critical factors are being UNSTABLE (i.e., untreated) and having a co-occuring substance abuse diagnosis, which is incredibly common among untreated mentally ill persons.

All of the studies at the link are of people with schizophrenia spectrum disorders or serious untreated mental illness. These are not studies of all people with mental health problems, and certainly not studies of the more than 17 million Americans who have experienced depressive episodes.

Depression does not make you a murderer. Some people who kill or harm others have depression. But as you yourself point out, they are unstable (untreated) and often have substance abuse problems. Those are serious complicating factors! Substance abuse is a major cause of violence in this country.

And the great irony here is that the more we stigmatize mental health issues, the more people will remain untreated because of fear of stigma. Stop stigmatizing mental illness. You are making the problem worse.

No, you stop. You obviously didn’t read all that is posted there, you saw schizophrenia listed and assumed the rest.

I have repeatedly said UNSTABLE mental illness which is untreated mental illness which is most of the people we are talking about and most people in this country who aren’t being diagnosed or treated. People like Andrea Yates who had post partum depression with psychosis and murdered all her children.

I am not stigmatizing people with mental illness. I AM A PERSON WITH MENTAL ILLNESS! I have struggled with it for FORTY YEARS. People with mental illness DO ENGAGE IN VIOLENT BEHAVIOR. You can’t magically tell who will and who won’t. And you are not helping anyone with your mantra that mental illness is harmless. It is neither harmless to the people suffering with it, their loved ones who suffer from the effects on the family, nor the victims of crimes that are carried out by some people with mental illness. Far more than the ‘less than one percent’ BULLSHIT you keep spouting.

YOU are not helping. YOU.

[Anonymous]

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/psychotic-depression-underrecognized-undertreatedand-dangerous


Approximately 20% of people with depression suffer psychosis. ONE IN FIVE DEPRESSIVE PEOPLE SUFFER WITH PSYCHOSIS. It is often undiagnosed and can be very dangerous. Please open your mind and recognize that SUICIDE is also violence, against the self - not to mention that a suicide in the family often leads to more suicides in the family, this has been extensively studied too.

And sometimes, as in the case that forms this thread, a suicidal psychotic depressive takes others in the act.


Our national conversation about mental illness needs to get way beyond head patting and an obsessive focus on not hurting anyone’s feelings.

Gun control isn’t the answer to many of the horrific mass shootings we have seen recently, where guns were purchased legally and within a framework of background checks.

We have a MENTAL ILLNESS CRISIS in this country. We need financial resources and frank conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Yes exactly — something in the middle ground.

DCUM mental health policy pros, what are some mental health treatment and safety/prevention protocols y’all talk about? I’m genuinely curious.

What exactly do you think "more than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold" would consist of? Bottom line, is the person being checked/held at liberty to depart or not? And who decides that?

Isn't that a Baker Hold. Is that just a Florida thing? Trump's former campaign manager was held at a hospital for 3 days against his will under the Baker Act because he was physically restraining his wife and had a public freakout. (He said he didn't attempt suicide btw).

I mean...I'm not sure how that would help in this situation though. He didn't do anything until he committed the act of familicide. And his brother acted in concert with him instead of telling his parents or authorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is some great information about studies of mental illness and violent behavior here: https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/evidence-and-research/learn-more-about/3633-risk-factors-for-violence-in-serious-mental-illness

This is also an organization that is working on reform of the civil commitment laws to enable better interventions before unstable mentally ill patients engage in violence in the community.

The short answer is that while the vast majority of persons suffering from mental illness are not violent, a very substantial percentage are - and the critical factors are being UNSTABLE (i.e., untreated) and having a co-occuring substance abuse diagnosis, which is incredibly common among untreated mentally ill persons.

All of the studies at the link are of people with schizophrenia spectrum disorders or serious untreated mental illness. These are not studies of all people with mental health problems, and certainly not studies of the more than 17 million Americans who have experienced depressive episodes.

Depression does not make you a murderer. Some people who kill or harm others have depression. But as you yourself point out, they are unstable (untreated) and often have substance abuse problems. Those are serious complicating factors! Substance abuse is a major cause of violence in this country.

And the great irony here is that the more we stigmatize mental health issues, the more people will remain untreated because of fear of stigma. Stop stigmatizing mental illness. You are making the problem worse.

No, you stop. You obviously didn’t read all that is posted there, you saw schizophrenia listed and assumed the rest.

I have repeatedly said UNSTABLE mental illness which is untreated mental illness which is most of the people we are talking about and most people in this country who aren’t being diagnosed or treated. People like Andrea Yates who had post partum depression with psychosis and murdered all her children.

I am not stigmatizing people with mental illness. I AM A PERSON WITH MENTAL ILLNESS! I have struggled with it for FORTY YEARS. People with mental illness DO ENGAGE IN VIOLENT BEHAVIOR. You can’t magically tell who will and who won’t. And you are not helping anyone with your mantra that mental illness is harmless. It is neither harmless to the people suffering with it, their loved ones who suffer from the effects on the family, nor the victims of crimes that are carried out by some people with mental illness. Far more than the ‘less than one percent’ BULLSHIT you keep spouting.

YOU are not helping. YOU.

Having a mental illness does not make you an expert and no one here is saying that people with mental illness do not engage in violent behavior. Your problem is that you keep insisting that a substantial number of people with mental illness are violent--this is simply not true. And you are ignoring all of the people without mental illness who are violent--which IS a substantial number. You are stigmatizing people with MI by claiming that is the problem, when it is actually the violent behavior (and indicators of violent behavior) that escalate over time and are ignored. Add that to freely available guns, and you have our current situation.

[Anonymous]

Depression, mental illness, personality disorders can all contribute to violent behavior but the number one common denominator is lack of empathy. Can be seen in the brain scans- https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scientists-studied-brains-more-800-prisoners-heres-what-they-found.

This kid obviously had no empathy. Instead of thinking of the long promising life his sister would've led all he could think about was himself, his unhappiness and how miserable everyone would be without him. In addition he wanted attention. A true narcissistic personality disorder combined with depression and suicidal ideation. He was a ticking time bomb.

[Anonymous]

Oops, that link didn't work. Here's the article- https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scientists-studied-brains-more-800-prisoners-heres-what-they-found

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depression, mental illness, personality disorders can all contribute to violent behavior but the number one common denominator is lack of empathy. Can be seen in the brain scans- https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scientists-studied-brains-more-800-prisoners-heres-what-they-found.

This kid obviously had no empathy. Instead of thinking of the long promising life his sister would've led all he could think about was himself, his unhappiness and how miserable everyone would be without him. In addition he wanted attention. A true narcissistic personality disorder combined with depression and suicidal ideation. He was a ticking time bomb.

And what about the brother who went along with the plan for A YEAR?

Both of these siblings were living full-time with their parents during quarantine as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depression, mental illness, personality disorders can all contribute to violent behavior but the number one common denominator is lack of empathy. Can be seen in the brain scans- https://news.uchicago.edu/story/scientists-studied-brains-more-800-prisoners-heres-what-they-found.

This kid obviously had no empathy. Instead of thinking of the long promising life his sister would've led all he could think about was himself, his unhappiness and how miserable everyone would be without him. In addition he wanted attention. A true narcissistic personality disorder combined with depression and suicidal ideation. He was a ticking time bomb.

I agree with this completely. His decision about the wellbeing of his family centered around himself entirely. This is chilling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is some great information about studies of mental illness and violent behavior here: https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/evidence-and-research/learn-more-about/3633-risk-factors-for-violence-in-serious-mental-illness

This is also an organization that is working on reform of the civil commitment laws to enable better interventions before unstable mentally ill patients engage in violence in the community.

The short answer is that while the vast majority of persons suffering from mental illness are not violent, a very substantial percentage are - and the critical factors are being UNSTABLE (i.e., untreated) and having a co-occuring substance abuse diagnosis, which is incredibly common among untreated mentally ill persons.

All of the studies at the link are of people with schizophrenia spectrum disorders or serious untreated mental illness. These are not studies of all people with mental health problems, and certainly not studies of the more than 17 million Americans who have experienced depressive episodes.

Depression does not make you a murderer. Some people who kill or harm others have depression. But as you yourself point out, they are unstable (untreated) and often have substance abuse problems. Those are serious complicating factors! Substance abuse is a major cause of violence in this country.

And the great irony here is that the more we stigmatize mental health issues, the more people will remain untreated because of fear of stigma. Stop stigmatizing mental illness. You are making the problem worse.

No, you stop. You obviously didn’t read all that is posted there, you saw schizophrenia listed and assumed the rest.

I have repeatedly said UNSTABLE mental illness which is untreated mental illness which is most of the people we are talking about and most people in this country who aren’t being diagnosed or treated. People like Andrea Yates who had post partum depression with psychosis and murdered all her children.

I am not stigmatizing people with mental illness. I AM A PERSON WITH MENTAL ILLNESS! I have struggled with it for FORTY YEARS. People with mental illness DO ENGAGE IN VIOLENT BEHAVIOR. You can’t magically tell who will and who won’t. And you are not helping anyone with your mantra that mental illness is harmless. It is neither harmless to the people suffering with it, their loved ones who suffer from the effects on the family, nor the victims of crimes that are carried out by some people with mental illness. Far more than the ‘less than one percent’ BULLSHIT you keep spouting.

YOU are not helping. YOU.

Having a mental illness does not make you an expert and no one here is saying that people with mental illness do not engage in violent behavior. Your problem is that you keep insisting that a substantial number of people with mental illness are violent--this is simply not true. And you are ignoring all of the people without mental illness who are violent--which IS a substantial number. You are stigmatizing people with MI by claiming that is the problem, when it is actually the violent behavior (and indicators of violent behavior) that escalate over time and are ignored. Add that to freely available guns, and you have our current situation.

Working with mentally ill people and the professionals who treat them and reading extensively in the literature for a quarter century makes me a hell of a lot more expert than you are, that’s for sure.

The studies indicate between 10-25% of mentally ill commit violent acts. Your definition of substantial may vary, but that’s substantial in my book and I suspect many others. Your repeated lie that less than 1% of mentally ill commit violent acts is just that - a lie and a dangerous one to boot.

It’s because of people like you that so many are dismissive of mental illness and the threat of violence it poses to the afflicted and to those around them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Working with mentally ill people and the professionals who treat them and reading extensively in the literature for a quarter century makes me a hell of a lot more expert than you are, that’s for sure.

The studies indicate between 10-25% of mentally ill commit violent acts. Your definition of substantial may vary, but that’s substantial in my book and I suspect many others. Your repeated lie that less than 1% of mentally ill commit violent acts is just that - a lie and a dangerous one to boot.

It’s because of people like you that so many are dismissive of mental illness and the threat of violence it poses to the afflicted and to those around them.

What studies and what mental illnesses?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On the note text that has been posted so far, he sounds like a psychopath.

The correct term is sociopath. This guy is undeniably a sociopath--he gets very little sympathy from me. Anyone with that level of detached planning to murder his own family (who he admits tried to help him!) is probably also a skilled liar. I don't believe he cut himself with an intention to kill himself but rather to get attention--which he did.

This kid is a monster. He should be jailed for the rest of his life in a facility that also provides counseling (which so jails do have, btw). He does sound like stone cold incel without the overt hatred of women part--as someone stated upthread. It's horrific.