Deep Racism Problems at NCS and STA: Questions/Answers we can't get through admissions

[Anonymous]

I think you are taking a risk only applying to one school even if your child currently thinks they want a single gender education. I think you have to get a sense of different schools' cultures and the feelings they spark in order to notice if STA seems to stand out as exceptionally conservative or problematic.

It's a sad reality that your child will likely find themselves in difficult, upsetting situations, but almost all children of color will. The question is do the benefits outweigh those negative interactions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In any event, if your child has a negative/ambiguous experience, it seems that GDS would be equipped bc of its history to work with your family in a constructive way.

I'm also a fan of GDS, but the actual Black voices at GDS seem to be saying something that explicitly contradicts the statement above:

"Right now, some people don’t feel safe at GDS."
"Internalized racism from Black boys to Black girls is awful here.”
"Black boys at GDS have a tendency to idolize white people in a way" and can often feel pressure to "assimilate into GDS’ whiteness."
When it comes to non-Black students who have used the racial slur, the administration is "pretty good at sweeping things under the rug."
"One thing that GDS especially mixes up is the difference between diversity and inclusivity."
Microaggressions now "becoming more macroaggressions and becoming more explicit and overt."
School environment is "the manifestation of a toxic white savior complex; it’s like they still think they’re doing us a favor letting us in with these white students."

https://theaugurbit.com/2020/10/12/through-instagram-account-current-and-former-black-students-offer-scathing-criticism-of-gds-record-on-race/

Perspective of Asian student: https://theaugurbit.com/2020/09/24/a-struggle-for-diversity-navigating-the-augur-bit-as-a-person-of-color/

It seems pretty clear that at any school you attend, you are going to need to be the change you want to see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:awesome attitude. keep at it everywhere, make sure your kids have it too.

PP to whom I believe you're responding: If my kids grow up believing that difficult, important discourse in a civil manner about important issues is best approached by calling other people who report facts liars, by denying factual premises, and by crying "fake news" every time they are confronted with something uncomfortable, then I will have failed as a parent, a citizen, and a human.

You can have robust, intelligent, difficult, and multi-sided debates about how and to what extent schools should respond to verified incidents of racism, what the school's role should and should be with regard to these issues, what partnerships (or not) with parents should be made on these issues, and on and on and on and on. I welcome those conversations. I welcome those debates. Everyone, on all sides, should welcome those conversations and debates. We should welcome the ability to talk to each other about HARD questions that don't have easy answers.

As for my kids--whom you felt the need to bring into this, here's what I'll say: My children better welcome those conversations and debates, and they better learn how to engage in them in ways that confront, rather than ignore, facts.

Because you CANNOT have what are so many much-needed hard conversations and debates if, for various stakeholders in those debates, facts do not exist. Facts are only "facts" when they support their ultimate positions. THAT is weak-minded, and my kids better not be weak-minded. True, strong-minded engagement, conversation, and debate about hard topics isn't intimidated by "facts," whichever way they cut. Facts are starting premises that one must accept--for good or ill--before one can begin to have an intelligent and civil discussion about hard issues. There are a lot of "facts" that are inconvenient to my positions on certain issues, and the same holds true for my children. The willingness to accept and the commitment to confront those inconvenient facts makes one a stronger advocate for the ultimate position, not a weaker one. Heck, sometimes those facts even change one's intransigent mind (mine included). A strong-minded advocate is not one who screams "liar!" in the face of facts, but one who has the intellect and thoughtfulness and rigor to defend and explain why their positions hold even in the face of those facts. More than that, a strong-minded person is not someone who allows their firmly held positions on debatable issues to completely close their mind to the possibility that certain facts might soften or change that position.

This epistemological crisis--whereby millions of Americans refuse to accept and confront facts as a way of shutting down much-needed discourse--is a cancer on the minds of every American who falls into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you are taking a risk only applying to one school even if your child currently thinks they want a single gender education. I think you have to get a sense of different schools' cultures and the feelings they spark in order to notice if STA seems to stand out as exceptionally conservative or problematic.

It's a sad reality that your child will likely find themselves in difficult, upsetting situations, but almost all children of color will. The question is do the benefits outweigh those negative interactions?

OP never said her kid was only applying to one school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

As a fellow AA parent, I would advise you to do what you would have done in any case. Ask the school to put you in touch with current parents. Then use your spider sense. This is an intensely personal decision, and when considering these traditional schools, you might take into account the personality of your child (how are they likely to react if they have a negative or ambiguous interaction?). Also, how much mental energy are you willing/able to invest in monitoring/managing the situation? Will you enjoy working with teachers or school administrators whom you might/might not have to educate a bit? Please know that “zero” investment in this type of social-emotional support is not likely to be an option whichever school you choose for your DC.

I would also take a close look at GDS. I’m not a big 3 parent, but the GDS parents/students I know are all really smart and reasonable. In any event, if your child has a negative/ambiguous experience, it seems that GDS would be equipped bc of its history to work with your family in a constructive way.

It’s really too bad that you can’t visit campuses. (Duh!) My DC participated for a time in an activity that included a number of Cathedral children. DC enjoyed the activity, but when a relative cam to visit and had the opportunity to observe; relative immediately noted the conservative (not political or racial, just traditional) ambience. Again, OP, you seem like such a reflective person, I think trusting your instincts will take you far.

Just know that the school will march out the satisfied parents and not those whose kids are struggling. I know the family in our grade who is called on to testify on how great their kid's experience is. The school does not ask the other 5 families who are not as happy.
The schools know exactly who to use to speak for them when prospective families ask. You will not get an unbiased opinion--in fact, far from it.

+1

OP, you're in a tough spot. This is the worst year imaginable to get any up-close information on the schools. Your kid (much less your kids' relatives) can't go get a feel for the school. You also pointed out noted, as the above poster does, that families the school sends you are vetted by the school. You say you're relatively new to town, and that combined with COVID means you're not able to get out there and talk to folks. You are right to acknowledge that dcum is far from perfect, but I don't blame you from just trying to get as much information as you can during this crazy year. I wish I had more to offer you other than well wishes, but good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A strong-minded advocate is not one who screams "liar!" in the face of facts, but one who has the intellect and thoughtfulness and rigor to defend and explain why their positions hold even in the face of those facts.

I'm not the PP you were responding to, and I agree with all of your comments, except that I think we need to be careful about assuming that every testimony submitted is the same as a "fact", to the extent that's what you're implying.

In the Black at GDS account, there was an anonymously submitted post, which was put on the account, that stated that a student was called the N word by a faculty member, and that the "headmaster" refused to help. The only reason it was subsequently taken down is because people commented that the reference to "headmaster" suggested it was a fake submission. If the person submitting it had just done a little more research, it would up there now.

In discussions like this, I think it's very important that testimonies be presumed true, though others may disagree. This is the issue we just had in the Dr. Ford / Judge Kavanaugh situation, where I would tend to believe Dr. Ford's testimony. To the extent that people want to preserve their anonymity and not be publicly outed, that's also fine. That's why reporters will vet a source and promise that they'll be kept anonymous. When several local schools have looked at sexual abuse allegations over the last few years, they have used this same approach, where there is a way for anonymous testimony to be provided in a way that's first vetted by someone who will keep the person's identity private.

In this situation, that's not necessarily what's occurring, which I think is unfortunate. As a result, my tendency is to view submissions that someone stands behind as fact, but leave the jury out on some of the more outlandish ones that give no identifying details, or where the account admin doesn't know who submitted it.

That doesn't mean that I disbelieve any real student providing an account.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A strong-minded advocate is not one who screams "liar!" in the face of facts, but one who has the intellect and thoughtfulness and rigor to defend and explain why their positions hold even in the face of those facts.

I'm not the PP you were responding to, and I agree with all of your comments, except that I think we need to be careful about assuming that every testimony submitted is the same as a "fact", to the extent that's what you're implying.

In the Black at GDS account, there was an anonymously submitted post, which was put on the account, that stated that a student was called the N word by a faculty member, and that the "headmaster" refused to help. The only reason it was subsequently taken down is because people commented that the reference to "headmaster" suggested it was a fake submission. If the person submitting it had just done a little more research, it would up there now.

In discussions like this, I think it's very important that testimonies be presumed true, though others may disagree. This is the issue we just had in the Dr. Ford / Judge Kavanaugh situation, where I would tend to believe Dr. Ford's testimony. To the extent that people want to preserve their anonymity and not be publicly outed, that's also fine. That's why reporters will vet a source and promise that they'll be kept anonymous. When several local schools have looked at sexual abuse allegations over the last few years, they have used this same approach, where there is a way for anonymous testimony to be provided in a way that's first vetted by someone who will keep the person's identity private.

In this situation, that's not necessarily what's occurring, which I think is unfortunate. As a result, my tendency is to view submissions that someone stands behind as fact, but leave the jury out on some of the more outlandish ones that give no identifying details, or where the account admin doesn't know who submitted it.

That doesn't mean that I disbelieve any real student providing an account.

Your point is a fair one, though to be very clear, I never asserted--not once--that every single thing in every single IG post was fact. There are some instagram posts in these accounts that are easily verifiable as factual. There are others for which more research would be needed. It is not OK to ignore facts; it is also not OK to assert as facts things that are fabricated or which are not objectively true and (preferably) verifiable.

When confronted with numerous and consistent accounts from numerous individuals spanning a fairly long period of time, however, the reality that there may be a few posts that contain factual inaccuracies--which should be recognized as such--does not negate the overall FACT that emerges from the sum of these accounts, namely, that numerous students of color, in schools across the country, often feel unwelcome, discriminated against, or mistreated. Again, we can and should debate all the hard questions that arise from that fact, but it should be the priority of all schools to facilitate and engage in the difficult discussions and work required to address that broader reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what the diversity director who quit mid-year had to say about why she left. Maybe this might help?

https://www.thewellscollective.com/post/forblackwomen

Did you quit NCS, or is she joining it?

Sorry: did she quit NCS, or is she joining it?

She quit.

And STA is FAR more conservative.


People, the proof is in the pudding at these institutions. They have next to no black faculty.
And there are scores of highly educated black educators in the DC area. My younger kids are in middle school
in DCPS and 50% of their teachers are black with degrees from amazing schools. If STA/NCS can't hire black
faculty there's a reason. And it's not salary--new teachers at DCPS are not making more than their counterparts
at STA/NCS.

Has it ever occurred to you that black educators might not want to teach at these schools? Oh, I forgot....everything is racism.

Teaching is much easier at the privates: classes are much smaller, kids are generally well behaved. And yet they can't get black educators to teach at the Cathedral schools and similar.
Something is turning off the black workforce. Salaries are not that different for early to mid career teachers (DCPS teachers start at $50k and are still in the 50's after 5 years).

Just something to ponder in a conversation about why racial issues continue for decades at the Cathedral schools.

Black Harvard etc. grads go into law, medicine etc. If a few want to work for a few years in the community to burnish their resume before grad school, they will do it at a title 1 school. Teaching is still mostly a second earner or retirees game, very few BUPPIES are going to dedicate their lives to educating rich kids when they could be rich themselves. Not racism. Economics. Sorry Charlie.

Huh? Your post is insane and so out of touch with reality. So under your paradigm Ivy league educated black people are the only ones worthy of teaching in the private school classroom?
I know about 50 black teachers in the DMV and NONE of them went to an Ivy league school and just about all of them are fantastic in the classroom

I'm going to go bang my head into a wall now. How are people this far into their own bubble of privilege?

Of course not. However, top of their class white women who are interested in "the field of education" are a dime a dozen, black women less so and black men unicorns due to the pull of other professions. Fact. If you think that the best private schools are not hiring top of their class/go getters/ experts in their field / retirees with excellent resumes and experience you might be the one out of touch with reality?

[Anonymous]

OP, there is a lot of false information in this thread:

AA teachers - a poster claimed that there weren’t any - not true

Our son’s very first teacher at Saint Albans is AA. She has both a Masters degree and a Divinity degree . She was a very demanding teacher academically, but very supportive of the boys . Translation: high standards . She had the full backing of the Lower School Head and has moved into an Admin role at the school

In 9th grade our son had an AA teacher for English Lit, who is a near 40 year academic legend at the school. Extremely high standards and so well respected that boys she gave a C to write letters of appreciation to hear a decade later . I think she may be the Department Chair

I could give more examples, but maybe just ask Dr Viola your questions. He is a fine person and will be honest with you

If you are looking for a stellar academic education for your son, in an environment where he will form lifelong friendships you could not do better in the area. It is one of the finest schools there is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi everyone. Our mixed-race DC is looking at schools for next year (through virtual open houses and zoom discussions with administrators).

One of those schools is NCS/STA (I'd rather not do anything to reveal who our family is).

We have read with deep shock the @blackatsta, @blackatncs, @asianatsta and other accounts in the DC schools. They are horrifying--racist comments by students and teachers, race-based bullying, race-based exclusion, extreme bullying (telling kids to kill themselves, relentlessly), etc. Worst of all--kids of color who just seem deeply and unfairly unhappy. The schools have of course acknowledged these accounts and have issued statements and outlined their plans to do to address these issues. So we have the "official" line from the schools.

What we'd really like to ask and have answers to though are not things we feel like we can get from the schools and those "official" statements and plans. We know that this forum is imperfect, too, and we're doing our best to find families that attend there. We only know a couple, as we've only lived here a couple of years. So we hope that some here are willing to engage.

How deep and ingrained are these issues of racism? Is there even a chance that these issues will be meaningfully addressed by new administrators? Or are these deep problems that would take decades to root out? Deep problems that will potentially be perpetuated by sets of moneyed groups with long ties to the school who not only aren't really committed to change, but who are also part of the problem (this last question comes from something one of the few families we know there said about a subset of very wealthy legacies at this school who have no commitment to change, and often are part of the problem)?

Again, we've heard the speeches. We've read the plans. Our DC has expressed a desire for single-sex, and DC is a competitive applicant (please, this is not an invitation to tell us to "get in first." You can't get answers about these sorts of things in the very short time you get to decide post-admission, and as parents of a child of color, we owe DC as much due diligence as we can--which is made even harder by the pandemic).

We would deeply appreciate the perspective of anyone from these schools who is willing to talk about what's REALLY going on there on these issues.

Did these sites get blocked? There were numerous posts then it stopped and no posts in days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

As a fellow AA parent, I would advise you to do what you would have done in any case. Ask the school to put you in touch with current parents. Then use your spider sense. This is an intensely personal decision, and when considering these traditional schools, you might take into account the personality of your child (how are they likely to react if they have a negative or ambiguous interaction?). Also, how much mental energy are you willing/able to invest in monitoring/managing the situation? Will you enjoy working with teachers or school administrators whom you might/might not have to educate a bit? Please know that “zero” investment in this type of social-emotional support is not likely to be an option whichever school you choose for your DC.

I would also take a close look at GDS. I’m not a big 3 parent, but the GDS parents/students I know are all really smart and reasonable. In any event, if your child has a negative/ambiguous experience, it seems that GDS would be equipped bc of its history to work with your family in a constructive way.

It’s really too bad that you can’t visit campuses. (Duh!) My DC participated for a time in an activity that included a number of Cathedral children. DC enjoyed the activity, but when a relative cam to visit and had the opportunity to observe; relative immediately noted the conservative (not political or racial, just traditional) ambience. Again, OP, you seem like such a reflective person, I think trusting your instincts will take you far.

Just know that the school will march out the satisfied parents and not those whose kids are struggling. I know the family in our grade who is called on to testify on how great their kid's experience is. The school does not ask the other 5 families who are not as happy.
The schools know exactly who to use to speak for them when prospective families ask. You will not get an unbiased opinion--in fact, far from it.

Which is why I advised to use spider sense. I can usually figure out what the difficult issues are just by listening carefully, even if someone is spinning me. It’s not easy being green.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If STA wants to be a kind and diverse place they need to stop preferentially admitting the children of VIPs and those who were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. It's ridiculous, really. They keep wringing their hands and speaking about diversity and kindness and inclusion and then year after year they admit the kids of CEOs and law partners and more recently---of Trump appointees--all from a select number of private schools.

They do so preferentially over equally qualified kids from public and equally qualified kids with parents who are pediatricians and journalists and government lawyers. And then they turn around and wonder, "gee whiz! Whey is our student body so elitist? Why are the boys so unkind?". "Maybe if we had one more diversity chapel we would solve this problem. Yes, let's have one more chapel. That will fix it!".
Giant eye roll.

+1.

I'll add to this by saying that it was a real shock coming from Beauvoir. Beauvoir isn't perfect, but it is quite committed to diversity in admissions (and elsewhere). As one fellow family put it, "the only reason STA is diverse is because of Beauvoir." After fourth grade, admissions at STA is somehow influenced in no small part by the desire by a small set of white, highly conservative families to get their friends in. Not every admit, but a LOT.

I don't know *why* STA perpetuates this disconnect between admissions and all of its overtures to diversity and inclusion. I don't say that just because it makes their commitments to diversity ring pretty hollow and the achievement of their initiatives basically impossible. I say that because it doesn't even seem to add up in a "money talks" way. Some of the very biggest donors to the school aren't in that little group, and we've watched as candidates they've supported get rejected, so it isn't the case that it's this one little group keeping the school's capital campaign afloat. It's not. We've also seen STA reject plenty of diverse applicants who are not lacking in money and/or prestige. I'm not saying only prestigious or wealthy families should get in. I'm saying that EVEN IF that was what was going on, it makes very little sense why STA is still happy to reject wealthy, prestigious diverse applicants, many of whom are coming from elite privates too. It doesn't add up...unless, as we are starting to fear, STA is more interested in being a club for a few families than a school for the best and brightest of all types of boys.

Anyway, OP, admissions is one of the key things, if not the key thing, that has to change for STA to make good on any of its commitments to a more welcoming environment for all students.

DP. I remember hearing about kids chanting “build a wall” around a diverse classmate after the 2016 election and worrying about what else was going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When confronted with numerous and consistent accounts from numerous individuals spanning a fairly long period of time, however, the reality that there may be a few posts that contain factual inaccuracies--which should be recognized as such--does not negate the overall FACT that emerges from the sum of these accounts, namely, that numerous students of color, in schools across the country, often feel unwelcome, discriminated against, or mistreated. Again, we can and should debate all the hard questions that arise from that fact, but it should be the priority of all schools to facilitate and engage in the difficult discussions and work required to address that broader reality.

Other than one or two inflammatory people, I don't think anyone is debating any of these points. What all of these accounts show is that there's a societal problem of POC experiencing frequent microaggressions and, far less frequently, more overt racism. The issue isn't limited to any school, or any type of school (the public school accounts relay stories that are equally compelling) - it's also not limited to schools. You find the same type of testimony in almost all large organizations.

What I've found having these types of discussions in the context of my employer, and how white people tend to reach to them, is that people tend to be more responsive when you focus on generally educating them on these matters, rather than trying to personalize it toward them or their organization. For example, if you go to a community and say "I'm want to talk about how this community is racist," you get a lot more pushback than if you say "I want to talk about how societal racism affects me as a member of and within the context of this community." The goal should be to help people understand their own conscious and unconscious biases, not to attack them as irredeemable racists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When confronted with numerous and consistent accounts from numerous individuals spanning a fairly long period of time, however, the reality that there may be a few posts that contain factual inaccuracies--which should be recognized as such--does not negate the overall FACT that emerges from the sum of these accounts, namely, that numerous students of color, in schools across the country, often feel unwelcome, discriminated against, or mistreated. Again, we can and should debate all the hard questions that arise from that fact, but it should be the priority of all schools to facilitate and engage in the difficult discussions and work required to address that broader reality.

Other than one or two inflammatory people, I don't think anyone is debating any of these points. What all of these accounts show is that there's a societal problem of POC experiencing frequent microaggressions and, far less frequently, more overt racism. The issue isn't limited to any school, or any type of school (the public school accounts relay stories that are equally compelling) - it's also not limited to schools. You find the same type of testimony in almost all large organizations.

What I've found having these types of discussions in the context of my employer, and how white people tend to reach to them, is that people tend to be more responsive when you focus on generally educating them on these matters, rather than trying to personalize it toward them or their organization. For example, if you go to a community and say "I'm want to talk about how this community is racist," you get a lot more pushback than if you say "I want to talk about how societal racism affects me as a member of and within the context of this community." The goal should be to help people understand their own conscious and unconscious biases, not to attack them as irredeemable racists.

Nothing about pp’s posts said anyone was irredeemable. If anything, everyone here has just been asking that we talk about this in an honest way

[Anonymous]

I am non white, have a kid in NCS and a kid who did not get in STA. My personal experience is that NCS is a great school. Teachers, admission team and the head of school are great people. DD loves the school.

STA is different and I am glad DS did not get in. There are systematic issues, especially the admission office. They made a comment about my son and I will never forgive them. If the admission office is like this, you can imagine the school. Good luck.