Possible legal challenge against TJ lottery

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really don't think a disparate impact approach is going to work here, because the only way to argue "disparate impact" is to uphold the status quo.

Yes, a lottery will have a disparate impact on Asian and white students, but only insofar as NOT having a lottery upholds the current status quo, which is really not how that legal argument has traditionally been interpreted.

The lottery will increase white students! It only reduces Asian American students.

Please note white students don't want to go here. White applications have been declining and white acceptance has been declining.

Likely true in general. But if they implement a lottery, Asian numbers will decrease because many kids gun for TJ starting in elementary school and lottery reduces the prep advantage. Don't get me wrong, I assume white kids gun for TJ too, but at smaller numbers.

The thing I don't understand from reading the threads is (I'm generalizing/summarizing): White students don't want to go to TJ. Brown students don't want to go to TJ. Asian students really want to go to TJ. And we do a lottery which will lead to fewer Asian students going to TJ? In what kind of suck ass county does that make sense?

The kind of county that realizes that many students don't want to go to TJ as it is now because it is too much of a rat race/pressure cooker because of an over emphasis on prepping by the students who currently attend TJ. If the rat race environment is reduced by the new admissions process, a broader cross section of kids will want to go there.

But it's the rat race that put TJ on the map. Before the rat race started in the 80's, it was just a regular, underutilized HS in Alexandria. So we have a chicken and egg problem.

Believe it or not, it is possible to have an advanced STEM curriculum with excellent students WITHOUT the rat-race issue.

I believe it, there are advanced STEM curriculums all over the country. What I'm saying is there's probably no other public high school where half of the graduating class are NMSQT semifinalists, sends 10+ students each to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT/Stanford every year, in additional to ~100 each to UVA and Virginia Tech. That piques people's interests, and makes companies want to donate to TJ...hence you get all this sophisticated STEM equipment that other advanced STEM high schools don't have. If you want to turn TJ into another Langley/Mclean HS, then sure do the lottery.

So many errors! I picture you jumping up and down with steam gushing from your ears!
Half nsf semi finalists? Less than a third are.
10 to Stanford every year? They have not sent nearly that many for many years!
100 to uva and va tech! Check the actual numbers...nowhere near that.

For 2020, UVA was 40, W&M 19, and VT 16. These have all been going down over time. Back in 2012 it was UVA 105, W&M 55, VT 25. More and more TJ graduates are going out of state.

The tjtoday list doesn't look like it adds up to 440. List is likely incomplete because some students don't respond.

But about 80% and consistent over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That old case doesn't invalidate all lotteries. It invalidated a lottery used over 20 years ago that was expressly race-weighted, which the TJ proposal is not.

OP sounds like a moron who just wants to keep the deck stacked in favor of people who pay to play by enrolling their kids in test prep centers with special access to exam questions.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That old case doesn't invalidate all lotteries. It invalidated a lottery used over 20 years ago that was expressly race-weighted, which the TJ proposal is not.

OP sounds like a moron who just wants to keep the deck stacked in favor of people who pay to play by enrolling their kids in test prep centers with special access to exam questions.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That old case doesn't invalidate all lotteries. It invalidated a lottery used over 20 years ago that was expressly race-weighted, which the TJ proposal is not.

OP sounds like a moron who just wants to keep the deck stacked in favor of people who pay to play by enrolling their kids in test prep centers with special access to exam questions.

+100

PP says lottery is not race weighted. If incoming classes is racially “balanced” it is safe to assume that “lottery” is a quota system in disguise. Hopefully SCOTUS will rule before the school implodes.

If FCPS shuts TJ not sure what legal recourse there is after that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't think a disparate impact approach is going to work here, because the only way to argue "disparate impact" is to uphold the status quo.

Yes, a lottery will have a disparate impact on Asian and white students, but only insofar as NOT having a lottery upholds the current status quo, which is really not how that legal argument has traditionally been interpreted.

The lottery will increase white students! It only reduces Asian American students.

Please note white students don't want to go here. White applications have been declining and white acceptance has been declining.

Likely true in general. But if they implement a lottery, Asian numbers will decrease because many kids gun for TJ starting in elementary school and lottery reduces the prep advantage. Don't get me wrong, I assume white kids gun for TJ too, but at smaller numbers.

The thing I don't understand from reading the threads is (I'm generalizing/summarizing): White students don't want to go to TJ. Brown students don't want to go to TJ. Asian students really want to go to TJ. And we do a lottery which will lead to fewer Asian students going to TJ? In what kind of suck ass county does that make sense?

The kind of county that realizes that many students don't want to go to TJ as it is now because it is too much of a rat race/pressure cooker because of an over emphasis on prepping by the students who currently attend TJ. If the rat race environment is reduced by the new admissions process, a broader cross section of kids will want to go there.

But it's the rat race that put TJ on the map. Before the rat race started in the 80's, it was just a regular, underutilized HS in Alexandria. So we have a chicken and egg problem.

Believe it or not, it is possible to have an advanced STEM curriculum with excellent students WITHOUT the rat-race issue.

I believe it, there are advanced STEM curriculums all over the country. What I'm saying is there's probably no other public high school where half of the graduating class are NMSQT semifinalists, sends 10+ students each to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT/Stanford every year, in additional to ~100 each to UVA and Virginia Tech. That piques people's interests, and makes companies want to donate to TJ...hence you get all this sophisticated STEM equipment that other advanced STEM high schools don't have. If you want to turn TJ into another Langley/Mclean HS, then sure do the lottery.

So many errors! I picture you jumping up and down with steam gushing from your ears!
Half nsf semi finalists? Less than a third are.
10 to Stanford every year? They have not sent nearly that many for many years!
100 to uva and va tech! Check the actual numbers...nowhere near that.

For 2020, UVA was 40, W&M 19, and VT 16. These have all been going down over time. Back in 2012 it was UVA 105, W&M 55, VT 25. More and more TJ graduates are going out of state.

Virginia colleges like the TJ of the future are putting more emphasis on racial diversity in admissions placing current TJ students at a disavantage. Not sure that FCPS lottery is the best solution.

[Anonymous]

I posit that the TJ Lottery is racist towards Blacks and Hispanics as well as Asians. The assumption seems to be that a lottery is the only way that they can get in.

They tried this in NYC as well with Stuyvesant, and this article elaborates one response towards it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/dont-abolish-nyc-high-school-admission-test/589045/

"New York City has offered free test preparation to its students, some for low-income students, some for all......I am aware of no reports that black students did ample test prep and yet still failed to be admitted to any of New York’s eight selective public schools."

The board hasn't even chosen to explore this option, which essentially means that they are more concerned about the optics of the situation than about making lasting change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posit that the TJ Lottery is racist towards Blacks and Hispanics as well as Asians. The assumption seems to be that a lottery is the only way that they can get in.

They tried this in NYC as well with Stuyvesant, and this article elaborates one response towards it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/dont-abolish-nyc-high-school-admission-test/589045/

"New York City has offered free test preparation to its students, some for low-income students, some for all......I am aware of no reports that black students did ample test prep and yet still failed to be admitted to any of New York’s eight selective public schools."

The board hasn't even chosen to explore this option, which essentially means that they are more concerned about the optics of the situation than about making lasting change.

This is a good article. Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't think a disparate impact approach is going to work here, because the only way to argue "disparate impact" is to uphold the status quo.

Yes, a lottery will have a disparate impact on Asian and white students, but only insofar as NOT having a lottery upholds the current status quo, which is really not how that legal argument has traditionally been interpreted.

The lottery will increase white students! It only reduces Asian American students.

Please note white students don't want to go here. White applications have been declining and white acceptance has been declining.

Likely true in general. But if they implement a lottery, Asian numbers will decrease because many kids gun for TJ starting in elementary school and lottery reduces the prep advantage. Don't get me wrong, I assume white kids gun for TJ too, but at smaller numbers.

The thing I don't understand from reading the threads is (I'm generalizing/summarizing): White students don't want to go to TJ. Brown students don't want to go to TJ. Asian students really want to go to TJ. And we do a lottery which will lead to fewer Asian students going to TJ? In what kind of suck ass county does that make sense?

The kind of county that realizes that many students don't want to go to TJ as it is now because it is too much of a rat race/pressure cooker because of an over emphasis on prepping by the students who currently attend TJ. If the rat race environment is reduced by the new admissions process, a broader cross section of kids will want to go there.

But it's the rat race that put TJ on the map. Before the rat race started in the 80's, it was just a regular, underutilized HS in Alexandria. So we have a chicken and egg problem.

Believe it or not, it is possible to have an advanced STEM curriculum with excellent students WITHOUT the rat-race issue.

I believe it, there are advanced STEM curriculums all over the country. What I'm saying is there's probably no other public high school where half of the graduating class are NMSQT semifinalists, sends 10+ students each to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT/Stanford every year, in additional to ~100 each to UVA and Virginia Tech. That piques people's interests, and makes companies want to donate to TJ...hence you get all this sophisticated STEM equipment that other advanced STEM high schools don't have. If you want to turn TJ into another Langley/Mclean HS, then sure do the lottery.

So many errors! I picture you jumping up and down with steam gushing from your ears!
Half nsf semi finalists? Less than a third are.
10 to Stanford every year? They have not sent nearly that many for many years!
100 to uva and va tech! Check the actual numbers...nowhere near that.

For 2020, UVA was 40, W&M 19, and VT 16. These have all been going down over time. Back in 2012 it was UVA 105, W&M 55, VT 25. More and more TJ graduates are going out of state.

Virginia colleges like the TJ of the future are putting more emphasis on racial diversity in admissions placing current TJ students at a disavantage. Not sure that FCPS lottery is the best solution.

We can use a lottery for uva as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That old case doesn't invalidate all lotteries. It invalidated a lottery used over 20 years ago that was expressly race-weighted, which the TJ proposal is not.

OP sounds like a moron who just wants to keep the deck stacked in favor of people who pay to play by enrolling their kids in test prep centers with special access to exam questions.

+100

PP says lottery is not race weighted. If incoming classes is racially “balanced” it is safe to assume that “lottery” is a quota system in disguise. Hopefully SCOTUS will rule before the school implodes.

If FCPS shuts TJ not sure what legal recourse there is after that?

Do you have any clue how the US legal system actually functions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That old case doesn't invalidate all lotteries. It invalidated a lottery used over 20 years ago that was expressly race-weighted, which the TJ proposal is not.

OP sounds like a moron who just wants to keep the deck stacked in favor of people who pay to play by enrolling their kids in test prep centers with special access to exam questions.

+100

PP says lottery is not race weighted. If incoming classes is racially “balanced” it is safe to assume that “lottery” is a quota system in disguise. Hopefully SCOTUS will rule before the school implodes.

If FCPS shuts TJ not sure what legal recourse there is after that?

The incoming class won't be racially "balanced". In all likelihood, you will see the merit lottery pool look a lot like the applicant pool from a racial perspective. And then the actual class will look like the lottery pools from each of the respective jurisdictions. So if a ton of Indian kids get into the lottery pool from Loudoun (a likely result), then most of the kids coming from Loudoun whom the lottery draws will be Indian.

Lotteries are legal. They are used in charter schools everywhere in the country - and conservatives prop up charter schools because of their believe in "school choice". FCPS knew this, and knew that courts wouldn't touch a system that would throw charter schools into complete disarray if it were no longer allowed.

[Anonymous]

i think the lottery will change the school entirely and thats a good thing. white kids and urms don't want to go there because the culture is totally asian. and the asian kids who go off to college are shocked when they get there and realize that they are a minority. this is the push the school needs to change the culture at tj.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i think the lottery will change the school entirely and thats a good thing. white kids and urms don't want to go there because the culture is totally asian. and the asian kids who go off to college are shocked when they get there and realize that they are a minority. this is the push the school needs to change the culture at tj.

Bruh. I'm pretty sure an asian kid who graduates from tj already realizes asians are a minority no matter where they go and tj is the exception. I will admit though when I was 6 years old and first read about Robert E. Lee, I spent the better part of the day wondering why an asian guy would fight in the U.S. Civil War, and on the Confederate side. Then I went to the library and got a different book where it had his picture and it made sense. Those were the days where we couldn't afford internet btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That old case doesn't invalidate all lotteries. It invalidated a lottery used over 20 years ago that was expressly race-weighted, which the TJ proposal is not.

OP sounds like a moron who just wants to keep the deck stacked in favor of people who pay to play by enrolling their kids in test prep centers with special access to exam questions.

Courts always look at old judgments ..

Can we send Athletes to Olympics with no prep ? if you want Gold medal, yes you need dedication, skill and prep

Why dont FCPS start another STEM program at different low rated high school with TJ Principal and some staff ? so access to more students and improves diversity too.

I don't know who needs to hear this, but the fact that lots of families in this area see admission to TJ as equivalent to an Olympic Gold medal, or an NBA roster spot, or even a high school team roster spot is maybe the best argument for why TJ is the toxic environment that it is, and that it needs to fundamentally change.

How should these families change and what are the suggestions. Everyone does what they like to do, if getting to TJ is like getting gold medal for them they are working on it and earning it. Not everyone who preps gets in also. Having another magnet is a good idea.

they're free to prep and strive and do what they want. The county decided they wanted to give kids who didn't have those opportunities a chance so they designed a system to distribute TJ slots more widely

And it will be struck down by a conservative judge or conservative court after fcps wastes millions of tax payer money.

still waiting for a single case cite with a relevant holding

There are too many cases so you can just google. You don’t even need Lexis or Westlaw.

It's like Trump when he was asked his favorite Bible verse. "There are so many....."

+!

[Anonymous]

Many families structure their whole life around getting into TJ. They spend lots of time dedicated to getting into good schools and colleges. TJ to them fits right in the middle of their path.

Other families do not prioritize TJ as much. There are several other things that they concentrate on sports, arts, literature, etc. So it is no surprise that these families do not get into TJ.

What FCPS is saying is they know what is best for families. They think families should be put so much priority on TJ. They might be right, but I for one do not like the idea of a government bureaucrat deciding what families should do. Comrade Brabrand thinks otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posit that the TJ Lottery is racist towards Blacks and Hispanics as well as Asians. The assumption seems to be that a lottery is the only way that they can get in.

They tried this in NYC as well with Stuyvesant, and this article elaborates one response towards it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/dont-abolish-nyc-high-school-admission-test/589045/

"New York City has offered free test preparation to its students, some for low-income students, some for all......I am aware of no reports that black students did ample test prep and yet still failed to be admitted to any of New York’s eight selective public schools."

The board hasn't even chosen to explore this option, which essentially means that they are more concerned about the optics of the situation than about making lasting change.

Who in the hell is going to pay for all that “free” tutoring?? The point is doing away with teach to the test, as American culture is NOT based on that. Hard to swallow, I know.