UCs forbidden to use SAT and ACT in admissions by court

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think this will hurt 4.0 students at mediocre high schools too. Everyone knows that As are pretty common, but if your high schools average ACT is like 20 before or like a fourth of people go to 4 year college, demonstrating that you had a 4.0 and a 30 means you can hack it at a UC.

This. My SAT was 450 points higher than the avg at my high school. I would’ve been SOL with the UC system!

[Anonymous]

Is it relevant that adequate testing centers were not being made available to persons without disabilities either? I'm not sure facts were presented that persons with disabilities were singled out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% of American high schoolers ha r straight As.

DCPS is only giving As and Bs this year. They dropped Cs and below from the grading scale entirely.

This is going to make very student even.

This will cause more colleges to require remedial classes to help students who got an "A" in English in HS but clearly can only write at a 5th grade level. Acceptances will become almost like a lottery, and admitting those students who cannot hack it in higher level institutions will hurt everyone.. These students should be going to community colleges for remedial classes, then transferring to 4 yr universities. By no means do I think that we should not help these kids, but pushing them into situations in which they are not prepared for is doing everyone a disservice.

They should replace the SATs with something else, like maybe a test like cogat or something.

CogAT relies too heavily on speed, though I get what you mean; it sounds like you are referring to ability testing. The old old old SAT purported to measure ability, unlike the current one that purports to measure academic skills per the Common Core State Standards.

(Poor David Coleman, SAT is going down in flames and it's only partly his fault; no one could have predicted a pandemic. I thought he would have been gone long before now...)

Here's the thing... in the real world, you are not giving "extra time" to solve a problem, not during the interview, and not on a project.

Lots of big name companies give out brainteaser type questions during interviews. You are not given extra time if you say you have LD issues. You have 5 min to solve that problem. That's the way the real world works.

^ also, tons of people seeking accommodation for "disabilities" are from rich. No way they're poor; they know better how to game the system. Know several of these people myself.

I bet most of the accommodations are ppl whose kid is getting a 1300 w/o accommodations but could (yet so could most 1300 kids if they had $$$$) get a 1400 with accommodations. I don’t think a kid getting 1200+ before accommodations deserves them. I think accommodations should be for the very, very disabled students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
How is that any different than school itself? A wealthy family can spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on tutors for school classes to help their kids get good grades, and a wealthy family likely will have easier access to schools with more rigorous curricula. The fact that one family is able to devote more financial resources to school or the SAT or extracurriculars is not illegal. It's capitalism. Relative financial status is not a protected class for purposes of civil rights laws.

nope, but relative financial class correlates with race which is a protected class

If poor whites have the same lack of access as poor minorities, I'm not sure you can say there is a disparate impact on poor minorities.

you can and they are. They'll argue the relevant comparison is minorities as a whole as a percentage of the applicant pool as a whole. Do you think the UC system is going to pay an attorney to say the system is fine because poor people are equally disadvantaged? How long do you think anyone who signs off on that line of argument would keep their jobs?

I don't think the UC system needs to make the argument because the ability to hire a tutor or prepare for the test was not relevant in any way to the Court's ruling. It is a narrow ruling about whether or not adequate testing centers are being made available for persons with disabilities. Any contentions about rich people performing better were window dressing to drum up sympathy and were not a basis for the trial court's decision.

That's the subject to the current injunction. The case as a whole concerns the broader use of SATs in admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% of American high schoolers ha r straight As.

DCPS is only giving As and Bs this year. They dropped Cs and below from the grading scale entirely.

This is going to make very student even.

This will cause more colleges to require remedial classes to help students who got an "A" in English in HS but clearly can only write at a 5th grade level. Acceptances will become almost like a lottery, and admitting those students who cannot hack it in higher level institutions will hurt everyone.. These students should be going to community colleges for remedial classes, then transferring to 4 yr universities. By no means do I think that we should not help these kids, but pushing them into situations in which they are not prepared for is doing everyone a disservice.

They should replace the SATs with something else, like maybe a test like cogat or something.

CogAT relies too heavily on speed, though I get what you mean; it sounds like you are referring to ability testing. The old old old SAT purported to measure ability, unlike the current one that purports to measure academic skills per the Common Core State Standards.

(Poor David Coleman, SAT is going down in flames and it's only partly his fault; no one could have predicted a pandemic. I thought he would have been gone long before now...)

Here's the thing... in the real world, you are not giving "extra time" to solve a problem, not during the interview, and not on a project.

Lots of big name companies give out brainteaser type questions during interviews. You are not given extra time if you say you have LD issues. You have 5 min to solve that problem. That's the way the real world works.

Yeah, maybe for a few mor minutes the “real world” will work like that.

I'm not sure you what you mean by this statement. Even during the pandemic, the real world is not going to accommodate a person's LD for the most part. The working situation may work better for some for the time being, but yes, wfh is not permanent for many.

Accommodations for physical limitations are one thing, ADA compliant which companies will adhere to, but not for LD where your processing speed is slower. That doesn't happen in job interviews or at work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just imagine if they did this in Virginia. It means your high schoolers’ hardwork is meaningless. It means if you have a bright kid, they may not get into UVA.

I don't think so. Bright kids will be doing accelerated course work in HS, no? He will be taking APs and IBs. He will have scholastic achievements to show. If you have saved money and can pay for college - UVA will no longer be a reach, especially since International Students are not coming and need based scholarships will be cut down. The schools are going to fight for the UMC high achieving kids. I feel race will not play a role and Asian-American UMC high achieving students will find less discrimination.

do you think the state will give UVA permission to raise instate tuition any time soon?

They don't need permission. I think they only need to have a period to get public feedback.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10 APs was the norm. Now it is going to be 15 or so. I can imagine everyone taking envio and human geography.

the whole point of the lawsuit is about access to a state service. If you don't think the next step is to overlay a map of schools with large AP offering on a demographic or economic map you're insane.

Truth. We've already heard from Admissions officers that they will look more at AP scores if a student doesn't have an ACT or SAT score. If anything, AP test scores are more a reflection of access and privilege than ACT/SAT scores are. That will be the next target for litigation.

[Anonymous]

when professor susan dynarski - a very woke, pro-affirmative action economist who focuses on education and inequality is pro standardized testing.

this is wild...there are so many poor/lower middle class kids who go to meh schools but crush testing and conversly there are a lot of rich dumb kids who have meh test results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10 APs was the norm. Now it is going to be 15 or so. I can imagine everyone taking envio and human geography.

the whole point of the lawsuit is about access to a state service. If you don't think the next step is to overlay a map of schools with large AP offering on a demographic or economic map you're insane.

Truth. We've already heard from Admissions officers that they will look more at AP scores if a student doesn't have an ACT or SAT score. If anything, AP test scores are more a reflection of access and privilege than ACT/SAT scores are. That will be the next target for litigation.

this.

i'm curious when the litigation against CIA, State Dept, McKinsey etc will start wrt testing (all three test as part of screening applicants - i think the only McKinsey apps that don't get tested are those that are target school/pipeline kids)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:when professor susan dynarski - a very woke, pro-affirmative action economist who focuses on education and inequality is pro standardized testing.

this is wild...there are so many poor/lower middle class kids who go to meh schools but crush testing and conversly there are a lot of rich dumb kids who have meh test results.

So true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:there are so many poor/lower middle class kids who go to meh schools but crush testing and conversly there are a lot of rich dumb kids who have meh test results.

What's odd is that you think you can tell the difference between those two students, but admissions office professionals with years of full-time personal experience and decades of institutional experience can't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:when professor susan dynarski - a very woke, pro-affirmative action economist who focuses on education and inequality is pro standardized testing.

this is wild...there are so many poor/lower middle class kids who go to meh schools but crush testing and conversly there are a lot of rich dumb kids who have meh test results.

So true.

This. 100%
I'm tired of the test-haters.
If you have specific elements of specific test that you think need to be adjusted, then focus on that, but to insist that the entire concept of a nationally-normed test should be eliminated is wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:there are so many poor/lower middle class kids who go to meh schools but crush testing and conversly there are a lot of rich dumb kids who have meh test results.

What's odd is that you think you can tell the difference between those two students, but admissions office professionals with years of full-time personal experience and decades of institutional experience can't.

If it were easy to do without test results, they would have gone test-optional long before now.

[Anonymous]

This is actually horrible for equity I dont understand people who think this will improve anything. It's just going to result in colleges admitting most of their classes from private schools and other elite publics.

[Anonymous]

AP Scores are even more correlated with wealth IME than SATs. Why not attack the LSAT, MCAT, PARCC, PSAT, DAT, GRE?
I don’t get the test-haters!