French ban on burqas - what is your take?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are not forced to wear bras in america. Anymore.

should we burn out bikinis and swimsuits? or our shirts? i hate wearing them anyway...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are not forced to wear bras in america. Anymore.

And yet, some should be.

[Anonymous]

Just go naked!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just go naked!

and go to jail because our government rules that i'm not allowed to walk as i please.
oh bummer!

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still stand by my view, though, that the burqa is very different from other articles of clothing (particularly the hijab which I have no problem with) in that it takes away someone's identity.

Just to be clear, I have no interest in whether women wear or don't wear a burqa. My issue is with laws prohibiting it. Also, I was not reacting to the specifics of the proposed French law, but to comments made in this forum. If someone has negative feelings about the burqa, I fully support their right to use civil methods of persuasion to convince woman not to wear it. Inviting such women to a women's club and getting to know them would go a whole lot further than a law that ostracizes them. Treating this as a legal issues simply pushes an already alienated minority further toward the margins.

Part of the problem is that the commision's finding indicating those women who are wearing the burqa are not all wearing it purely out of conviction and choice, but by custom and the dictates of the patriarchal members of their rather closed societies. It wouldn't help to invite them wo a women's club and try to convince them of anything--in part, the French government appears to be stating they are doing it partially for their own good, partially for the good of their society as a whole, which is what they believe is the role of their government.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the greatest factors for change is to give women education and employment opportunities. This will give them financial freedom and the power to change their standing. Not easy to do when women are considered second class citizens who exist to serve and please men.

Oh shut up. There's several girls in burqas here at school and they have plenty freedom to chose what they want to do.
If they prohibit this women from wearing that they want/need to they'll be keeping them prisoners in their own homes!
Would you fly if your government suddenly prohibited you from wearing a shirt for security reasons? How would you feel bare chested in public?

Such laws are outrageous!

Burqas, really? What school is that?

That's what I'd like to know. I suspect that poster is confusing the Burqa with the Hijab.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Part of the problem is that the commision's finding indicating those women who are wearing the burqa are not all wearing it purely out of conviction and choice, but by custom and the dictates of the patriarchal members of their rather closed societies. It wouldn't help to invite them wo a women's club and try to convince them of anything--in part, the French government appears to be stating they are doing it partially for their own good, partially for the good of their society as a whole, which is what they believe is the role of their government.

Anyone who has ever studied anything about France will be aware of France's colonial practices which were based on assimilation. The French have always believed that the values, traditions, and practices of France were best for everyone (little did they know that honor belongs to America ). So, the finding of the French commission that forcing people to act French is the best solution should not surprise anyone. Maybe friendly persuasion would not always work. But, it could assist in the creation of support networks, mutually beneficial dialogue, and the opportunity for change by choice. Passing laws will simply create criminals of people who are otherwise law-abiding. If the French government is worried about the plight of Muslim women, there are a host of activities it could undertake in that regard. If women are being forced to wear the burqa, squeezing them between the rock of the Government and the hard place of "patriarchal members of their rather closed societies" is hardly going to make their lives easier.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Part of the problem is that the commision's finding indicating those women who are wearing the burqa are not all wearing it purely out of conviction and choice, but by custom and the dictates of the patriarchal members of their rather closed societies. It wouldn't help to invite them wo a women's club and try to convince them of anything--in part, the French government appears to be stating they are doing it partially for their own good, partially for the good of their society as a whole, which is what they believe is the role of their government.

Anyone who has ever studied anything about France will be aware of France's colonial practices which were based on assimilation. The French have always believed that the values, traditions, and practices of France were best for everyone (little did they know that honor belongs to America ). So, the finding of the French commission that forcing people to act French is the best solution should not surprise anyone. Maybe friendly persuasion would not always work. But, it could assist in the creation of support networks, mutually beneficial dialogue, and the opportunity for change by choice. Passing laws will simply create criminals of people who are otherwise law-abiding. If the French government is worried about the plight of Muslim women, there are a host of activities it could undertake in that regard. If women are being forced to wear the burqa, squeezing them between the rock of the Government and the hard place of "patriarchal members of their rather closed societies" is hardly going to make their lives easier.

I agree with most of what you said. But I don't think that banning the burqa from public places is forcing them to act French, since this is also the custom of most of the rest of the world.

And I've always thought that one of the reasons that the French and the Americans have such great animosity towards each other is due in most part to their striking similarity in national charactor. FWIW, I'm German, so a bit of an outside observer.

[Anonymous]

Doesn't Germany also have a huge problem with prejudice against Muslims and other "outsiders"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Doesn't Germany also have a huge problem with prejudice against Muslims and other "outsiders"?

Define "huge". Doesn't America have a huge problem with racial prejudice? Gay issues? Fundamentalist religions? Discrimination agains minorities?

Yes, they have some problems with Turks, and most Turks are Muslim. No, they don't have the big problems the French have in their bagnols or the Belgians have. At least not in this century, since they are hyper-aware and carrying a lot of national guilt.

[Anonymous]

We've got our issues, but Europe in general is more racist, IMO. We've got a short history, one that's nothing but assimilation of different cultures. Europe is much more monolithic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We've got our issues, but Europe in general is more racist, IMO. We've got a short history, one that's nothing but assimilation of different cultures. Europe is much more monolithic.

I think that can be said for many places where the people are homogeneous. But if it were not for outsiders, they would still have divisions amongst various internal groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the greatest factors for change is to give women education and employment opportunities. This will give them financial freedom and the power to change their standing. Not easy to do when women are considered second class citizens who exist to serve and please men.

Oh shut up. There's several girls in burqas here at school and they have plenty freedom to chose what they want to do.
If they prohibit this women from wearing that they want/need to they'll be keeping them prisoners in their own homes!
Would you fly if your government suddenly prohibited you from wearing a shirt for security reasons? How would you feel bare chested in public?

Such laws are outrageous!

Burqas, really? What school is that?

That's what I'd like to know. I suspect that poster is confusing the Burqa with the Hijab.

no babe, I really meant Burqa the clothing that covers the whole body and leaves just a little opening for the eyes with a net over it.

[Anonymous]

""But it's like she's not even a person." Even a small child can recognize how dehumanizing and degrading the burqa is for women."

"I care what MY child thinks and I would agree with my child's assessment that wearing a burqa reduces a woman to an anonymous ghost of a person."

"Disgrace is relegating half your population to non-person status because they don't have a penis."


Interesting. There is a non-speaking ghost character called "No Face" in the award winning animated film "Spirited Away". No Face wears a black sheet that completely covers itself.

[Anonymous]

Have you ever asked a muslim woman that wears a burqa her opinion about it? if not you don't know what you're talking about here.