“Colleges That Change Lives”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

Thank you. This is actually a helpful post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

Honestly, PP, what is your problem? The poster is simply relaying her daughter's experience at one of the CTCL in response to requests on this thread for exactly that information. It is absurd for you to criticize this family's decision or even suggest the student would have been better off elsewhere.

One of my sons went to a CTCL and his decision had absolutely nothing to do with the "CTLC" moniker and I sure did not go around saying "Oh my son is going to a CTCL." Parents and students are not applying or attending these colleges because they expect some type of miraculous, four year life changing transformation and I doubt that anyone on this board is expecting that either. They are interested in them or attending them because they see the schools as good fits to learn and grow and perhaps discover something about themselves that they did not know before. Sure, that can happen at many colleges and some in-state ones may be less expensive, but these parents and these students think one of the CTCL schools is the better place for their child/student. Not everyone does well at a 25,000 student in-state university and as plenty of posters have already said, often with merit aid, the CTCL schools cost the same as in-state.

As far as the 40 of them traveling together, that only makes sense given their size. One or two of them alone won't attract as many prospective applicants as all of them together. I would describe it as more like a college fair. Claremont McKenna, Colorado College, Connecticut College, Grinnell, Haverford, Kenyon, Macalester and Sarah Lawrence do the same thing except that they call themselves Eight of the Best Colleges. Does that not count as a marketing ploy since they are more highly ranked on USNWR? Another DS of mine attended a CTCL event and a Eight of the Best event. It was useful to have the schools grouped so that he could check out other colleges at these events that he had not considered applying to. If you want to call that marketing, go for it. But stop criticizing others for the decisions that they think are best for their kid. Just send yours to the 25,000 student in-state school and leave us alone to share our experiences with those who are interested in them.

[Anonymous]

Just for the record, there is clearly more than one anti-CTCL poster on this thread. I know that because I am one of the antis, and I’m not doing all of the anti-posting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

[Anonymous]

"CTCL are second tier schools. No thanks."

Snob much? As the first in my family to go to college, I'm incredibly grateful for the aid that I received from my CTCL, which allowed me to graduate debt-free from a small, private school that provided me with an excellent and very personalized education. My family couldn't afford a "top tier" private school, and I would have been lost in the large public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

So that you don't keep spreading misinformtion:
Knox College: 80.4%
Kalamazoo College: 81.6%
Hampshire: 74.5%
Denison: 82%
OWU: 66%
St Johns: 56%
Evergreen State: 75%
Antioch College: 56%
Allegheny College: 78%

[Anonymous]

Here's the list. St Olaf is the only CTCL school at 85, and it wasn't on your list.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate