“Colleges That Change Lives”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

So that you don't keep spreading misinformtion:
Knox College: 80.4%
Kalamazoo College: 81.6%
Hampshire: 74.5%
Denison: 82%
OWU: 66%
St Johns: 56%
Evergreen State: 75%
Antioch College: 56%
Allegheny College: 78%

I'd be real interested in hearing how that qualifies as "most" of your listed schools have rates "between 80-85%." The highest on your list is 82, and 3 out of 9 at 80 or above isn't "most." How is my statement that "none is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less" less accurate than yours, exactly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'd be real interested in hearing how that qualifies as "most" of your listed schools have rates "between 80-85%." The highest on your list is 82, and 3 out of 9 at 80 or above isn't "most." How is my statement that "none is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less" less accurate than yours, exactly?

You're right, it wasn't most. I went through the first four and all but one were in the 80-85% range, so I extrapolated. However, your original point -- which you have made several times -- was that the graduation rates at CTCL schools are "terrible."

Anyway, I've gone down the rabbit hole of engaging on this. I'm wrong that it wasn't "most," but I provided the rates and people can engage as they see fit.

Back to OP's original post... I do think that graduation rate is an important factor to consider. A lot of the country's best colleges have excellent graduation rates, but I think the point that many of the posters are making is that these schools tend to attract applicants that (a) wouldn't get into or couldn't afford the William and Mary's of the world, and (b) wouldn't thrive at big schools. So, to attract that kind of student and graduate 75% or more of them (and, in many cases, in 4 years -- a feat that can be challenging at big public schools) is impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

So that you don't keep spreading misinformtion:
Knox College: 80.4%
Kalamazoo College: 81.6%
Hampshire: 74.5%
Denison: 82%
OWU: 66%
St Johns: 56%
Evergreen State: 75%
Antioch College: 56%
Allegheny College: 78%

I wonder if the graduation rates might indicate transfers rather than non-completion of a four-year degree...
I know that St. John's is a very difficult school and a lot choose to transfer. maybe this the same with some of the others. thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

So that you don't keep spreading misinformtion:
Knox College: 80.4%
Kalamazoo College: 81.6%
Hampshire: 74.5%
Denison: 82%
OWU: 66%
St Johns: 56%
Evergreen State: 75%
Antioch College: 56%
Allegheny College: 78%

I wonder if the graduation rates might indicate transfers rather than non-completion of a four-year degree...
I know that St. John's is a very difficult school and a lot choose to transfer. maybe this the same with some of the others. thoughts?

I'm sure you're right. Non CTCL schools have drops out. CTCL schools merely have transfers. They're special. Their lives start being changed at a CTCL school, but the process is completed elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings



Of course it does. Every year each college boasts "most applications every received, selectivity percentage down". Every . . .single . . . college. It's a game. My own blah college plays it. They have to brag about the surge in applications and the selecitivity of the new class and the yield or donors won't send money in.

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

That may be true for you but a lot has changed since the books (there are four) were published. Yes, LACs throw money at kids who have stats that might help them inch up on the USN&WR ladder. (and some of those LACs are going under as a result). My DS was sought out w/o any interest or application by two small Virignia LACs you've never heard of. Both offered $28K sight unseen because they needed his ACT for reporting to USN&WR purposes. Even after subtracting the 28K, state flagship was cheaper and much more prestigious.

[Anonymous]

Hendrix College: 67 percent
Hope College: 67 percent
Southwestern University: 67 percent
Cornell College: 66 percent
Partial list of CTCL schools where a third or more students don't graduate in four years.

Williiamette University: 66 percent
St Mary's of California: 65 percent
Lawrence University: 65 percent
Austin College: 63 percent
Eckerd College: 63 percent
St John's College: 63 percent
Agnes Scott College: 62 percent
Bard College: 62 percent
Ohio Wesleyan University: 62 percent
Earham College: 58 percent
New College of Florida: 57 percent
Goucher College: 56 percent
Lynchburg College: 51 percent
Hiram College: 50 percent
Guilford College: 45 percent
Marlboro College: 44 percent
Evergreen State: 42 percent

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

So that you don't keep spreading misinformtion:
Knox College: 80.4%
Kalamazoo College: 81.6%
Hampshire: 74.5%
Denison: 82%
OWU: 66%
St Johns: 56%
Evergreen State: 75%
Antioch College: 56%
Allegheny College: 78%

I wonder if the graduation rates might indicate transfers rather than non-completion of a four-year degree...
I know that St. John's is a very difficult school and a lot choose to transfer. maybe this the same with some of the others. thoughts?

I'm sure you're right. Non CTCL schools have drops out. CTCL schools merely have transfers. They're special. Their lives start being changed at a CTCL school, but the process is completed elsewhere.

I don't know if it's "merely" but in our DC case that is what transpired. transfer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hendrix College: 67 percent
Hope College: 67 percent
Southwestern University: 67 percent
Cornell College: 66 percent
Partial list of CTCL schools where a third or more students don't graduate in four years.

Williiamette University: 66 percent
St Mary's of California: 65 percent
Lawrence University: 65 percent
Austin College: 63 percent
Eckerd College: 63 percent
St John's College: 63 percent
Agnes Scott College: 62 percent
Bard College: 62 percent
Ohio Wesleyan University: 62 percent
Earham College: 58 percent
New College of Florida: 57 percent
Goucher College: 56 percent
Lynchburg College: 51 percent
Hiram College: 50 percent
Guilford College: 45 percent
Marlboro College: 44 percent
Evergreen State: 42 percent

Wow, those are some impressive numbers! The National 4 year graduation rate is 33% for 4 year colleges!

[Anonymous]

More misrepresentations, PP? You quoted the average for PUBLIC schools. The average for private schools is much higher and well over 50%. Many CTCL schools are just average private schools and sometimes below average when it comes to graduation rates. Nothing special. That’s the point.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

So that you don't keep spreading misinformtion:
Knox College: 80.4%
Kalamazoo College: 81.6%
Hampshire: 74.5%
Denison: 82%
OWU: 66%
St Johns: 56%
Evergreen State: 75%
Antioch College: 56%
Allegheny College: 78%

I wonder if the graduation rates might indicate transfers rather than non-completion of a four-year degree...
I know that St. John's is a very difficult school and a lot choose to transfer. maybe this the same with some of the others. thoughts?

I'm sure you're right. Non CTCL schools have drops out. CTCL schools merely have transfers. They're special. Their lives start being changed at a CTCL school, but the process is completed elsewhere.

I don't know if it's "merely" but in our DC case that is what transpired. transfer.

Well, then, I guess that’s college wasn’t changing his life very well now, was it?

[Anonymous]

So the average four year graduation rate at state colleges is 33% but UVA is 87%? Now THAT is impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the rational poster who wants to move forward, rather than in circles...let me say that my child has done well at Juniata. She was tired of the mindset in this area. She is a strong, hard working student--who got into many other more highly ranked schools--but chose Juniata because of its sense of community. She has blossomed there, in terms of confidence and involvement. She is getting a great science education. The town is VERY small/limited. Kids should only go there if they are content with a campus-based social life. The surrounding area is woodsy and rural. They have a field station at a nearby lake, where students can spend a semester studying environmental science or wildlife biology. Merit offers are generous and tend to be honored for all four years.

That's great that it worked out for your daughter. But Juniata is $57K a year and IMHO not worth it. The point being made is that the 40 colleges that are in the CTCL circuit aren't that special. They are only 40 colleges out of the 5,000 available in the United States. Pope died in 2008. The LACs that can sign on to go on circuit simply because some parents are suckered into the CTCL claim and can say "Oh my child is going to a College that changes lives!" but think about it - why do these 40 colleges pay so much money and tour as a group to offer large-seated lectures and then large rooms with all 40 colleges on display? Because the game now is all about getting applications so that colleges can reject students so as to report higher selectivity numbers to USN&WR. It's all a racket. I'm posting simply because I want some parents who read this to see beyond that. Your daughter may have done just as well at an in-state school like William & Mary or whatever is available in your state - for a fraction of what you paid. She may have done even better at no. 41. ALL colleges can change lives if the student wants them to. Or if the student doesn't they will fail. this is Marketing 101.

1) Stop with the selectivity/USNWR harangue. Selectivity doesn’t count anymore for USNews (thankfully). Colleges, of course, do still tout their admissions percentage. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/articles/2018-09-10/whats-new-in-the-2019-us-news-best-colleges-rankings

2) I went to a CTCL before the book was published. My kid applied to one last year. The net cost for my kid (tuition + Room and board) would have been $30K after merit. They aren’t going there, but paying $30K vs $54K per year makes some of these schools worth consideration, especially for strong students who are price sensitive.

There seems to be one person countering every anecdote. At this point I would jus trust not engage with them.

+1 Please do not engage with this poster. Let's try to get this thread back on track. There are a lot of good nuggets sprinkled throughout.

We visited Allegheny and were really impressed with how personal the school was and what a pretty campus it head. There also appeared to be a lot of opportunities in theater, which was important to us. The only downside (and I think it's enough to prevent my daughter from applying there) is the town.

Thank you. I went to a CTCL school, already mentioned, as did my brother. I've also visited, for one reason or another, and here are my quick two cents:
Knox: Interesting experimental model for education, and a strangely high number of real-world internships for a school of its size and location, but I could not get over the location -- it is remote. And small. Davenport, IA is the "big city" and it's not even close.
Kalamazoo: Excellent study abroad programs, strong science programs, lovely campus in a pretty Western MI town.
Hampshire College: Very alternative school with no grades, access to classes at Smith/Amherst/etc, beautiful location but the campus itself is quite dated and ugly. Also, it's in dire financial straits. Not for everyone.
Denison: Comes up a lot on DCUM, strong social science programs, very close to Columbus and all that it has to offer, slightly more conservative student body, cute town. More greek life than some of these other schools.
Ohio Wesleyan: Also close to Columbus but Delaware is less "cute" than Granville. OWU is very social-justice focused and has a tight-knit community.
St Johns: Is in Santa Fe and is stunningly gorgeous. It's like the Annapolis school. It's a great books program, beyond that I don't know much but that alone may be an attraction or deterrent.
Evergreen State: Very "green" campus and a wildly well-regarded environmental science program. Very activist student body. I doubt it gets much respect or press on this board, but it's well-known in Washington State and in the west and among Sierra Club circles. Also, unlike most of these, it's public.
Antioch College is in central Ohio, midway between Cincinnati and Columbus, and is very quirky. Yellow Springs is the most "hippie" city in Ohio -- lots of record shops and organic cafes and such. I wouldn't go there because they were in such dire financial straits that they actually closed a few years ago, but it does appear to be still operating.

One thing to note: a lot of these schools have full tuition prices which wildly exceed what most students actually pay. 99% of St Johns students get financial aid, for example. My parents made 100K when I went to my CTCL school (cost at the time: 30K/yr) and I graduated with 10K total in student loans (I also got significant merit aid).

Also, generally speaking, a lot of the commonalities among the schools are small class sizes, classes only taught by professors, lots of independent research (and, relatededly, a lot of students going into graduate school) and residential campuses with very few people living off campus.

Oh, one more big plus for a lot of these schools: you can do theater/music/art/sports/etc even if you are not a major or great talent in those areas. Many of them require you to do so. This was a major draw for me -- being able to be in a choir, for example, without having to compete against future Broadway stars, was appealing. Another appealing thing was that it's often quite easy to complete the curriculum requirements, leaving space in your schedule for classes outside of your major/minor/core requirements. So, you could take a language class, for example, without it needing to fill any kind of requirement.

another common element among these schools: terrible graduation rates. it's hard for a college to change your life if you can't get a degree.

Go away. And if you don't, show your work. Most of the schools I listed have graduation rates between 80-85% -- the national average is 59%.

None of them is 85, most are well under 80, and some are in the 60s or less. Show YOUR work.

So that you don't keep spreading misinformtion:
Knox College: 80.4%
Kalamazoo College: 81.6%
Hampshire: 74.5%
Denison: 82%
OWU: 66%
St Johns: 56%
Evergreen State: 75%
Antioch College: 56%
Allegheny College: 78%

I wonder if the graduation rates might indicate transfers rather than non-completion of a four-year degree...
I know that St. John's is a very difficult school and a lot choose to transfer. maybe this the same with some of the others. thoughts?

I'm sure you're right. Non CTCL schools have drops out. CTCL schools merely have transfers. They're special. Their lives start being changed at a CTCL school, but the process is completed elsewhere.

I don't know if it's "merely" but in our DC case that is what transpired. transfer.

Well, then, I guess that’s college wasn’t changing his life very well now, was it?

your being deliberately asinine -- graduation vs transfer are two different things that the above numbers don't breakdown.

DC because very motivated and engaged in the setting and desired a larger setting, so transferred.

ladies and gents: don't feed the troll

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the average four year graduation rate at state colleges is 33% but UVA is 87%? Now THAT is impressive.

They only have 16,000 student. It’s practically the smallest flag ship.

They only beat RI by 2k students.

[Anonymous]

I am looking at a couple CTCL with my kid for next year. And I was shocked how many were still on the national list of colleges with spots still open as of 6/1 this year. Including Beloit, St. John, Goucher, Juanita and Earlham. Given how many small, private colleges are folding, its cause for concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hendrix College: 67 percent
Hope College: 67 percent
Southwestern University: 67 percent
Cornell College: 66 percent
Partial list of CTCL schools where a third or more students don't graduate in four years.

Williiamette University: 66 percent
St Mary's of California: 65 percent
Lawrence University: 65 percent
Austin College: 63 percent
Eckerd College: 63 percent
St John's College: 63 percent
Agnes Scott College: 62 percent
Bard College: 62 percent
Ohio Wesleyan University: 62 percent
Earham College: 58 percent
New College of Florida: 57 percent
Goucher College: 56 percent
Lynchburg College: 51 percent
Hiram College: 50 percent
Guilford College: 45 percent
Marlboro College: 44 percent
Evergreen State: 42 percent

My child is at Lawrence and they have a popular dual degree program where you get your bachelor's in music and bachelor of arts/science in 5 years.

Also, given that the average 4-year graduation rate is 33%, I'd say these are some dang impressive numbers! Thanks for sharing!