Very young moms and their “research”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You seem to be throwing all kinds of stuff into the same bag. Are we supposed to blindly follow your orders?

I am actually an older mother, a professional with a PhD. I have several doctors in my family and I am an immigrant from Europe. That provides for a bit perspective.

American doctors like to do to diagnostics that don’t require any skills. They also jump on the latest fad - the most recent research - as to opposes to fundamentals. Ironically in doing so they are more similar to the young mothers you describe here. And yes, putting a young child under so that you can conveniently fill cavities in the baby teeth is insane.

You are so right! Better to let the cavities advance to the point of abscess - what’s a little pain and swelling anyway? I’m sure the body will heal that naturally. And besides, that little hellion Larlo, who will absolutely not cooperate and almost bit your finger off at the last appointment? Yeah, rotten teeth are his punishment for being a little sh!t in the dental chair. He doesn't deserve to have a healthy mouth. Or better yet, let’s fill his 20 teeth ONE BY ONE in the dental office and traumatize him 20 times over. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

Not to mention failure to treat cavities in baby teeth can lead to infecting the adult teeth.

Interesting that European dentists agree with treating cavities in baby teeth.

they do treat cavities but not at al coats and often won’t use anesthesia. anesthesia is for lazy parents and incompetent dentists.

And there you have it folks. No rational conversation to be had here.

And seriously, isn’t this the EXACT thing that patients/clients are now railing against? You don’t want them to have any rational discussion, yiu juat wnt them to accept whatever you say.

And no, not every European dentist agrees with treating cavities. Holle Formula is still formula. European children are given alcohol much earlier than the age of 21. So what’s your point? Different things for different people. Make your decisions, and question who is giving you information,

Your major dental professional associations do, as do your pediatric medical care associations.

Yes, you can find someone who is off in left field on any topic, but I don't think this is any more convincing for your argument than shouting in all-caps, or bolding, or the leaps of logic are.

Way to miss the point, and focus on the minutiae rather than the message.

Many doctors do not respect the major associations, or their recommendations, especially if they don’t make them money.

being a doctor does not mean you won’t be questioned, or are above questioning. Europe and other areas have different standards. You’re not more special because your paid for a specific education. The people they pay you get to get to ask you questions, much like they probably have to, despite your preconceptions about them. Because you think you’re better, doesn’t mean you are. A plumber still needs to come fix your toilet.

haha! Actually, doctors are more "special" and knowledgable because they paid for a specific education. An education whose schools have very stringent admission standards that the vast majority of people can't meet. My husband is a physician, and in medical school he studied for at least 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. His work ethic and that of his classmates amazed me. Then in residency and fellowship he worked 80 hours a week receiving hands-on training. You can't replicate that education by reading a couple of articles on the internet. In fact, the vast majority of people are not literate in biomedical science and are unable to correctly read and interpret research studies. This is precisely why uneducated moms shouldn't be "doing their own research." They aren't capable of the critical analysis necessary to understand that Natural News, Mercola.com, and the NVIC are garbage websites that spout inaccurate information.

This is it in a nutshell. I absolutely astounds me that people think they actually can.

No you can’t replicate a medical degree that way. But you can learn more about your specific uncommon condition/diagnosis than the average generalist doctor would know. You also know your own medical history better than a doctor you just met and spends 10 minutes with you. You absolutely do have to advocate for yourself and it’s wise to do some research. Doctors aren’t infallible and no, they are absolutely not up to date on the latest recommendations on every disease or subject.

The doctor would have forgotten to give my mom the rhogam shot if she hadn’t insisted. I wouldnt have been born if it weren’t for her advocacy/“research.” The first obgyn I saw told me that it was best not to treat my hypothyroidism during pregnancy if I hadn’t been treated before and that only white fish was safe to eat during pregnancy. I went home and looked both those things up. She was wrong. Switched doctor practices and sure enough got a different recommendation on both subjects that was actually supported by medical research and medical associations. Sure, I’ll listen to a doctor, but I’m going to check anything they say that seems odd. And yes, I know the difference between fake news, one inconclusive medical study, and standard recommended practices supported by a large body of research.

[Anonymous]

If you want to see a prime example of ignorance and entitlement, check out the FB page of Peer-Reviewed Mama. She literally had no idea what she’s talking about, but is confidently anti-vaccines.

[Anonymous]

OP, I would acknowledge their concerns and answer their questions but if they are repeatedly ignoring you, I would dismiss THEM.

I know physicians can do it and repeated noncompliance and antagonistic relationship are enough to let them go.

Maybe offer to recommend another MD in practice or other practices they may find a better personality fit with (not necessarily ant-vax or anti-antibiotics) or encourage them to seek second opinions with another MD since they don't trust yours.

[Anonymous]

My experience with doctors has been that they follow guidance that best applies to the "median" patient; the only problem is that none of us are that patient, and most patients know their histories better than any chart. Further, while many doctors are amazing, it takes one or two arrogant ones to put you on guard forever. My GP wouldn't prescribe augmentin for an ear infection until 4 weeks had gone by and I was losing my hearing in one ear; I had to pay out of network for a second option and move a work trip because I couldn't risk a long haul flight with an inflamed ear. The attending obstetrician at my son's birth was arrogant and proceeded to do various things to me without first informing me, let alone consulting me. (The resident was excellent though.) My current OB is suggesting tests that are not supported by any evidence of benefit; in fact they increase the risk of c-section without reducing any other risks. I'm a research scientists by profession so I can access and interpret research results just fine. I know the doctor is just following the current guidance but that guidance is not always right.

Other people may not have access to medical journals but they have been burned by the system and no longer trust it. (Don't get me started on the pharmaceutical industry and lack of disclosure of risk.) They live in near-constant fear and make various (sometimes badly misguided) attempts to restore predictability and control in their lives. Many of them do it in ways that are uninformed. As a result, we have anti-vaxxers and measels outbreaks in the 21st century.

Try to have some empathy for these young women, who are trying to do their best but aren't equipped to do so. A little listening and respect for the patient goes a long way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m pro vaccination and pro finishing antibiotics. I also mostly listen to my doctors. But I don’t love doctors and think they can be so condescending.

Doctors follow treatments that are best for 90% of people, and if you’re one of the 10% with an odd, hard to diagnose disease, or that doesn’t respond will to the usual treatments, you’re out of luck with most doctors. Some treat you terribly and tell you some bullshit like it’s all psychosomatic symptoms of depression. People look for diagnoses for years before getting one, all the while doctors treating them like crazy people making it up.

Some doctors also won’t tell you the truth because they don’t trust individuals to weigh risks and make decisions themselves. Like some recommendations about what you can eat, sleep, and do during pregnancy or the insane push for breastfeeding above making sure babies don’t starve and moms aren’t going insane.

Or maybe the doctors are too afraid of being sued and so always give the standard advice only even if it’s not working out.

I also think the discussion of vaccines by doctors is condescending. I don’t agree with anti vaxxers and I don’t think they cause autism. But vaccines do cause plenty of rare complications. There’s a whole schedule in the law to compensate people who have those complications. So yeah, probably what is best for each child is to be the only unvaccinated child in the whole universe of people he or she will ever meet. But that’s not possible and it’s a public good. But all I ever hear about is the safety of vaccines and never that hey, it’s your civil duty to do it, the risks are very rare, so weigh that and don’t be the jerk that causes the poor kid with cancer to die of measles. Instead it’s just it’s perfevtly safe like there’s no trust that we can handle the truth.

I agree with you, PP. Doctors never discuss the actual, yet rare risks. They are condescending. The handouts are not very informative. You wrote a great summary. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Ugh. Why do people keep referring to the OP as a "doctor"?

She's a speech therapist. Many of us wouldn't even consider that to be a medical professional. It's basically a glorified teacher. Actually, I have a lot more respect for actual teachers.

Anyway, I'm late 30s, highly educated, and I think for myself too. Couldn't care less if doctors think I'm "difficult". Guess it's lucky for all involved that we choose to live a very healthy lifestyle and so don't have much need for them anyway.

[Anonymous]

These mom in their 20's aren't 'very young' moms. They are adults.

I am an old mom now, but I was a 21 yo mom once. I always do my research and advocate for myself and my kids.

That being said, I am very respectful to Drs and medical personnel. I don't try to change their minds or wave printouts in their faces. I nod and smile, and then do what I feel is best for my children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m pro vaccination and pro finishing antibiotics. I also mostly listen to my doctors. But I don’t love doctors and think they can be so condescending.

Doctors follow treatments that are best for 90% of people, and if you’re one of the 10% with an odd, hard to diagnose disease, or that doesn’t respond will to the usual treatments, you’re out of luck with most doctors. Some treat you terribly and tell you some bullshit like it’s all psychosomatic symptoms of depression. People look for diagnoses for years before getting one, all the while doctors treating them like crazy people making it up.

Some doctors also won’t tell you the truth because they don’t trust individuals to weigh risks and make decisions themselves. Like some recommendations about what you can eat, sleep, and do during pregnancy or the insane push for breastfeeding above making sure babies don’t starve and moms aren’t going insane.

Or maybe the doctors are too afraid of being sued and so always give the standard advice only even if it’s not working out.

I also think the discussion of vaccines by doctors is condescending. I don’t agree with anti vaxxers and I don’t think they cause autism. But vaccines do cause plenty of rare complications. There’s a whole schedule in the law to compensate people who have those complications. So yeah, probably what is best for each child is to be the only unvaccinated child in the whole universe of people he or she will ever meet. But that’s not possible and it’s a public good. But all I ever hear about is the safety of vaccines and never that hey, it’s your civil duty to do it, the risks are very rare, so weigh that and don’t be the jerk that causes the poor kid with cancer to die of measles. Instead it’s just it’s perfevtly safe like there’s no trust that we can handle the truth.

I agree with you, PP. Doctors never discuss the actual, yet rare risks. They are condescending. The handouts are not very informative. You wrote a great summary. Thank you.

If you continue to see Doctors who do not discuss risks and who are condescending, that is on you. I changed doctors four times before I found the Doctor that I currently have. I have followed her to three different practices in 10 years. She is great. She lists aternatives, explains what she is doing and why, and listens when I have been struggling with something. I had a rare bad reaction to an asthma medicine that was causing multiple respitory infections. My husband found it online, he dug into the meds I was taking. I asked her about the possible reaction, she pulled out her computer, looked it up, said “Yup, that is a rare reaction, I have never seen it before but that fits the pattern.” She then found an alternative treatment, we discussed it, and went that way.

Condescending Doctors are in business because they have patients. If you leave the Doctor who is condescending and find one that is not, you will have a better experience. If enough people do that, the condescending Doctor is likely to go out of business.

People are willing to use Google to research their illness but not to find a Doctor who doesn’t suck. Maybe people should start out looking for the Doctor that doesn’t suck. I get that not everybody has the same options due to their medical insurance, but if you do have flexibility and you are staying with a Doctor who treats you poorly, that is on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh. Why do people keep referring to the OP as a "doctor"?

She's a speech therapist. Many of us wouldn't even consider that to be a medical professional. It's basically a glorified teacher. Actually, I have a lot more respect for actual teachers.

Anyway, I'm late 30s, highly educated, and I think for myself too. Couldn't care less if doctors think I'm "difficult". Guess it's lucky for all involved that we choose to live a very healthy lifestyle and so don't have much need for them anyway.

What arrogance. My dad lived a very healthy lifestyle too, but turns out he needs bypass surgery due to a genetic condition that creates a huge amount of plaque build-up in his heart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh. Why do people keep referring to the OP as a "doctor"?

She's a speech therapist. Many of us wouldn't even consider that to be a medical professional. It's basically a glorified teacher. Actually, I have a lot more respect for actual teachers.

Anyway, I'm late 30s, highly educated, and I think for myself too. Couldn't care less if doctors think I'm "difficult". Guess it's lucky for all involved that we choose to live a very healthy lifestyle and so don't have much need for them anyway.

What arrogance. My dad lived a very healthy lifestyle too, but turns out he needs bypass surgery due to a genetic condition that creates a huge amount of plaque build-up in his heart.

My Mom exercised regularly (walking, aerobics, circuit training), ate healthy, and slept 8 hours a day. She ended up with stage 3 lung cancer, heart issues, and was just diagnosed with Alzheimers. My Dad eats like crap (too much and a good amount of junk), smoked for 40 years, barely exercised and has had a knee replaced.

You keep assuming that your very healthy lifestyle is going to be the cure all. Hopefully it will work out better for you then it did my Mom. Me, I am going to take good care of myself and find a doctor that I like and build a good rapport with her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I daresay she knows the difference between a doctor and a speech therapist, though.


If you don't have a real concept of how much you don't know, of course you are going to think people who do are overly impressed with actual training and knowledge. You can't see it. Maybe you don't want to, or maybe you are unable.

Doesn't matter. It just means you aren't a good judge of this.

bih, I am one of the posters who keeps pointing out that OP is not a doctor.

and doctors forget most they learned in medical school anyway. i know plenty of doctors in real life and if you are not asking them about their specialty their knowledge is very basic. this is entirely normal and to be expected but does cut against “but look at those huge books they once had to read” argumen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You seem to be throwing all kinds of stuff into the same bag. Are we supposed to blindly follow your orders?

I am actually an older mother, a professional with a PhD. I have several doctors in my family and I am an immigrant from Europe. That provides for a bit perspective.

American doctors like to do to diagnostics that don’t require any skills. They also jump on the latest fad - the most recent research - as to opposes to fundamentals. Ironically in doing so they are more similar to the young mothers you describe here. And yes, putting a young child under so that you can conveniently fill cavities in the baby teeth is insane.

You are so right! Better to let the cavities advance to the point of abscess - what’s a little pain and swelling anyway? I’m sure the body will heal that naturally. And besides, that little hellion Larlo, who will absolutely not cooperate and almost bit your finger off at the last appointment? Yeah, rotten teeth are his punishment for being a little sh!t in the dental chair. He doesn't deserve to have a healthy mouth. Or better yet, let’s fill his 20 teeth ONE BY ONE in the dental office and traumatize him 20 times over. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

Not to mention failure to treat cavities in baby teeth can lead to infecting the adult teeth.

Interesting that European dentists agree with treating cavities in baby teeth.

they do treat cavities but not at al coats and often won’t use anesthesia. anesthesia is for lazy parents and incompetent dentists.

And there you have it folks. No rational conversation to be had here.

And seriously, isn’t this the EXACT thing that patients/clients are now railing against? You don’t want them to have any rational discussion, yiu juat wnt them to accept whatever you say.

And no, not every European dentist agrees with treating cavities. Holle Formula is still formula. European children are given alcohol much earlier than the age of 21. So what’s your point? Different things for different people. Make your decisions, and question who is giving you information,

Your major dental professional associations do, as do your pediatric medical care associations.

Yes, you can find someone who is off in left field on any topic, but I don't think this is any more convincing for your argument than shouting in all-caps, or bolding, or the leaps of logic are.

Way to miss the point, and focus on the minutiae rather than the message.

Many doctors do not respect the major associations, or their recommendations, especially if they don’t make them money.

being a doctor does not mean you won’t be questioned, or are above questioning. Europe and other areas have different standards. You’re not more special because your paid for a specific education. The people they pay you get to get to ask you questions, much like they probably have to, despite your preconceptions about them. Because you think you’re better, doesn’t mean you are. A plumber still needs to come fix your toilet.

haha! Actually, doctors are more "special" and knowledgable because they paid for a specific education. An education whose schools have very stringent admission standards that the vast majority of people can't meet. My husband is a physician, and in medical school he studied for at least 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. His work ethic and that of his classmates amazed me. Then in residency and fellowship he worked 80 hours a week receiving hands-on training. You can't replicate that education by reading a couple of articles on the internet. In fact, the vast majority of people are not literate in biomedical science and are unable to correctly read and interpret research studies. This is precisely why uneducated moms shouldn't be "doing their own research." They aren't capable of the critical analysis necessary to understand that Natural News, Mercola.com, and the NVIC are garbage websites that spout inaccurate information.

This is it in a nutshell. I absolutely astounds me that people think they actually can.

No you can’t replicate a medical degree that way. But you can learn more about your specific uncommon condition/diagnosis than the average generalist doctor would know. You also know your own medical history better than a doctor you just met and spends 10 minutes with you. You absolutely do have to advocate for yourself and it’s wise to do some research. Doctors aren’t infallible and no, they are absolutely not up to date on the latest recommendations on every disease or subject.

The doctor would have forgotten to give my mom the rhogam shot if she hadn’t insisted. I wouldnt have been born if it weren’t for her advocacy/“research.” The first obgyn I saw told me that it was best not to treat my hypothyroidism during pregnancy if I hadn’t been treated before and that only white fish was safe to eat during pregnancy. I went home and looked both those things up. She was wrong. Switched doctor practices and sure enough got a different recommendation on both subjects that was actually supported by medical research and medical associations. Sure, I’ll listen to a doctor, but I’m going to check anything they say that seems odd. And yes, I know the difference between fake news, one inconclusive medical study, and standard recommended practices supported by a large body of research.

If you know the difference between fake news and standard medical practices, then OPs post isn’t about you. The examples she cited were not taking antibiotics for strep, refusing vaccines, and bringing in Natural News printouts. Any reasonable doctor would have no problem discussing a news article in a major publication or an actual primary research publication. But no, OP is talking about dealing with people who have no idea what they are talking about and come in ready to argue with the doctor. That must be incredibly frustrating to deal with on a regular basis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m pro vaccination and pro finishing antibiotics. I also mostly listen to my doctors. But I don’t love doctors and think they can be so condescending.

Doctors follow treatments that are best for 90% of people, and if you’re one of the 10% with an odd, hard to diagnose disease, or that doesn’t respond will to the usual treatments, you’re out of luck with most doctors. Some treat you terribly and tell you some bullshit like it’s all psychosomatic symptoms of depression. People look for diagnoses for years before getting one, all the while doctors treating them like crazy people making it up.

Some doctors also won’t tell you the truth because they don’t trust individuals to weigh risks and make decisions themselves. Like some recommendations about what you can eat, sleep, and do during pregnancy or the insane push for breastfeeding above making sure babies don’t starve and moms aren’t going insane.

Or maybe the doctors are too afraid of being sued and so always give the standard advice only even if it’s not working out.

I also think the discussion of vaccines by doctors is condescending. I don’t agree with anti vaxxers and I don’t think they cause autism. But vaccines do cause plenty of rare complications. There’s a whole schedule in the law to compensate people who have those complications. So yeah, probably what is best for each child is to be the only unvaccinated child in the whole universe of people he or she will ever meet. But that’s not possible and it’s a public good. But all I ever hear about is the safety of vaccines and never that hey, it’s your civil duty to do it, the risks are very rare, so weigh that and don’t be the jerk that causes the poor kid with cancer to die of measles. Instead it’s just it’s perfevtly safe like there’s no trust that we can handle the truth.

I agree with you, PP. Doctors never discuss the actual, yet rare risks. They are condescending. The handouts are not very informative. You wrote a great summary. Thank you.

If you continue to see Doctors who do not discuss risks and who are condescending, that is on you. I changed doctors four times before I found the Doctor that I currently have. I have followed her to three different practices in 10 years. She is great. She lists aternatives, explains what she is doing and why, and listens when I have been struggling with something. I had a rare bad reaction to an asthma medicine that was causing multiple respitory infections. My husband found it online, he dug into the meds I was taking. I asked her about the possible reaction, she pulled out her computer, looked it up, said “Yup, that is a rare reaction, I have never seen it before but that fits the pattern.” She then found an alternative treatment, we discussed it, and went that way.

Condescending Doctors are in business because they have patients. If you leave the Doctor who is condescending and find one that is not, you will have a better experience. If enough people do that, the condescending Doctor is likely to go out of business.

People are willing to use Google to research their illness but not to find a Doctor who doesn’t suck. Maybe people should start out looking for the Doctor that doesn’t suck. I get that not everybody has the same options due to their medical insurance, but if you do have flexibility and you are staying with a Doctor who treats you poorly, that is on you.

You do realize that some women/children have to travel over an hour to see a doctor... thanks Republicans.

Check your bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree with you, PP. Doctors never discuss the actual, yet rare risks. They are condescending. The handouts are not very informative. You wrote a great summary. Thank you.

If you continue to see Doctors who do not discuss risks and who are condescending, that is on you. I changed doctors four times before I found the Doctor that I currently have. I have followed her to three different practices in 10 years. She is great. She lists aternatives, explains what she is doing and why, and listens when I have been struggling with something. I had a rare bad reaction to an asthma medicine that was causing multiple respitory infections. My husband found it online, he dug into the meds I was taking. I asked her about the possible reaction, she pulled out her computer, looked it up, said “Yup, that is a rare reaction, I have never seen it before but that fits the pattern.” She then found an alternative treatment, we discussed it, and went that way.

Condescending Doctors are in business because they have patients. If you leave the Doctor who is condescending and find one that is not, you will have a better experience. If enough people do that, the condescending Doctor is likely to go out of business.

People are willing to use Google to research their illness but not to find a Doctor who doesn’t suck. Maybe people should start out looking for the Doctor that doesn’t suck. I get that not everybody has the same options due to their medical insurance, but if you do have flexibility and you are staying with a Doctor who treats you poorly, that is on you.

You do realize that some women/children have to travel over an hour to see a doctor... thanks Republicans.

Check your bubble.

Check the last sentence, the one that is bolded. The bubble was checked.

And the mess that is our health care system is not just the fault of Republicans, it is a far more complex problem then that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh. Why do people keep referring to the OP as a "doctor"?

She's a speech therapist. Many of us wouldn't even consider that to be a medical professional. It's basically a glorified teacher. Actually, I have a lot more respect for actual teachers.

Anyway, I'm late 30s, highly educated, and I think for myself too. Couldn't care less if doctors think I'm "difficult". Guess it's lucky for all involved that we choose to live a very healthy lifestyle and so don't have much need for them anyway.

What arrogance. My dad lived a very healthy lifestyle too, but turns out he needs bypass surgery due to a genetic condition that creates a huge amount of plaque build-up in his heart.

Whatever. You should have watched a couple of YouTube videos and done it yourself.
And how did you even know that he needed that surgery? Did you read the peer reviewed studies? Or did you just listen to the condescending doctor tell you what to do?