CCL and Virginia NPL: Make the case

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are discussing the relevance of CCL with ECNL, DA and EDP as options. EDP is a viable and better option now with the national league.

That's not why the thread was started.

No, and I can say that, having started the thread. But it seems like no one has really come up with a case for CCL or VaNPL other than "butt-hurt NCSL parent." Surely there's something better.

The only thing I can say is my son played in both CCL and VaNPL. The level of competition was much higher in the CCL, but he liked the guys on the NPL team better, so he left the CCL and played with them. At a certain point, you do need to enjoy who you play with too.

[Anonymous]

When can this change happen? Can't change soon enough. So many kids deciding to play other sports because of all the travel at a young age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would argue that some of the top players on non-DA/ECNL teams are still signing with the top universities. You have players going to top DI programs from the Boys Baltimore Celtic team that won the national championship and FC Bordeaux. Bordeaux sent close to a dozen girls to DI programs. Both programs compare favorably to Bethesda Soccer which is in DA (Boys) and ECNL (Girls). The top teams in ECNL and DA will send girls to the top schools. Top teams at McLean and FCV will send players to UNC, Stanford and Duke but consider that UNC's top player is from Pipeline. I am not a booster for these clubs but just want to point out that the DA/ECNL will not always have the best players. There are strong players in EDP.

Off topic, but as mentioned on other threads, the strong Baltimore Celtic teams are a special case given the soccer culture that exists at Baltimore privates. There aren't many markets around here where so many kids will have that strong of an incentive to skip DA for school soccer. You can't really make many generalizations about girls' elite soccer at this point given how unsettled the scene is at the moment.

The poster that insists on DA being the only place to have the 'elitist of the elite' is the parent that has a kid in DA or a club with DA.

Most people do not think that Travel Club DA is any better than the top teams in leagues like EDP, etc. Travel Club DA is generally that travel Club's A team, former CCL---but now CCL is no longer for them, etc. So, why drive longer to practice?

MLS DA serves only a niche of families that are willing to drive a long distance. It also serves families that like MLS and see MLS soccer as an option for their kid. There are many people that hate the MLS style and level of play. DCU is the most expensive DA in the entire Country.

The pp is correct that many, many top Universities are still recruiting players outside of DA.

I don't think anyone was making the argument that the "elitist of the elite" are only in the DA. Of course great players and even teams exist outside DA. The point was that _on average_ the quality of player in the DA is higher than that of outside clubs such as those in EDP top divisions, and the net is that _on average_ more D1 prospects will come from DA teams than non DA. I don't know why this is such a lightning rod for some people.

You will have more elite players in some cases but even in the DC area, you have quality players on quality non-ECNL/DA teams going to DI schools and beyond. FC Bordeaux 99, Herndon 99, Loudoun 99, Arlington 99, OPSA 99, etc. Those teams played in the top brackets at Jefferson Cup, Bethesda, Disney, etc., and are sending their best to DI

Hopefully it should be obvious to all that the majority of players recruited to college don't come from DA (or DA+ECNL for the girls).

The latest estimates I found after a quick search shows that there are 24,986 men and 27,638 women competing in soccer at the D1 level (http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-college-athletics). There are around 80 something DA programs for boys that go all the way through U19, and they have a max roster of 24 on average, so say around 1,920 DA graduates per year x 4 (for each year of college) gets you to less than 8,000. And a lot of DA kids don't end up playing D1 or playing in college at all. For NCAA men, a fair number of the D1 slots will be taken up by international players, but there are still lots of roster spots left. Add to that that our area is very strong for soccer overall, so I'm sure that the DMV is more heavily represented in college than a lot of other regions.

I haven't run the numbers for women, but it's a similar story.

We are talking the top D1 programs and scholarships. Not every bench player on every D1 or below team. Please run your numbers to include that, because otherwise your data will have very little meaning.

What's a "top D1 program" in your view? How would I or any other member of the public know what scholarship amount particular players received?

https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/college-soccer-national-rankings/men

https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/college-soccer-national-rankings/women

You're welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would argue that some of the top players on non-DA/ECNL teams are still signing with the top universities. You have players going to top DI programs from the Boys Baltimore Celtic team that won the national championship and FC Bordeaux. Bordeaux sent close to a dozen girls to DI programs. Both programs compare favorably to Bethesda Soccer which is in DA (Boys) and ECNL (Girls). The top teams in ECNL and DA will send girls to the top schools. Top teams at McLean and FCV will send players to UNC, Stanford and Duke but consider that UNC's top player is from Pipeline. I am not a booster for these clubs but just want to point out that the DA/ECNL will not always have the best players. There are strong players in EDP.

Off topic, but as mentioned on other threads, the strong Baltimore Celtic teams are a special case given the soccer culture that exists at Baltimore privates. There aren't many markets around here where so many kids will have that strong of an incentive to skip DA for school soccer. You can't really make many generalizations about girls' elite soccer at this point given how unsettled the scene is at the moment.

The poster that insists on DA being the only place to have the 'elitist of the elite' is the parent that has a kid in DA or a club with DA.

Most people do not think that Travel Club DA is any better than the top teams in leagues like EDP, etc. Travel Club DA is generally that travel Club's A team, former CCL---but now CCL is no longer for them, etc. So, why drive longer to practice?

MLS DA serves only a niche of families that are willing to drive a long distance. It also serves families that like MLS and see MLS soccer as an option for their kid. There are many people that hate the MLS style and level of play. DCU is the most expensive DA in the entire Country.

The pp is correct that many, many top Universities are still recruiting players outside of DA.

I don't think anyone was making the argument that the "elitist of the elite" are only in the DA. Of course great players and even teams exist outside DA. The point was that _on average_ the quality of player in the DA is higher than that of outside clubs such as those in EDP top divisions, and the net is that _on average_ more D1 prospects will come from DA teams than non DA. I don't know why this is such a lightning rod for some people.

You will have more elite players in some cases but even in the DC area, you have quality players on quality non-ECNL/DA teams going to DI schools and beyond. FC Bordeaux 99, Herndon 99, Loudoun 99, Arlington 99, OPSA 99, etc. Those teams played in the top brackets at Jefferson Cup, Bethesda, Disney, etc., and are sending their best to DI

Hopefully it should be obvious to all that the majority of players recruited to college don't come from DA (or DA+ECNL for the girls).

The latest estimates I found after a quick search shows that there are 24,986 men and 27,638 women competing in soccer at the D1 level (http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-college-athletics). There are around 80 something DA programs for boys that go all the way through U19, and they have a max roster of 24 on average, so say around 1,920 DA graduates per year x 4 (for each year of college) gets you to less than 8,000. And a lot of DA kids don't end up playing D1 or playing in college at all. For NCAA men, a fair number of the D1 slots will be taken up by international players, but there are still lots of roster spots left. Add to that that our area is very strong for soccer overall, so I'm sure that the DMV is more heavily represented in college than a lot of other regions.

I haven't run the numbers for women, but it's a similar story.

We are talking the top D1 programs and scholarships. Not every bench player on every D1 or below team. Please run your numbers to include that, because otherwise your data will have very little meaning.

What's a "top D1 program" in your view? How would I or any other member of the public know what scholarship amount particular players received?

https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/college-soccer-national-rankings/men

https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/college-soccer-national-rankings/women

You're welcome.

No thanks necessary!

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:To catch up on a few random points ...

1. The general purpose of promotion/relegation is parity. It doesn't work for the top divisions of Spain, Scotland, France, etc.., because they have a couple of clubs that are just that much better than everyone else.

2. The "rest of the world" has promotion/relegation in its top pro divisions (aside from Australia and sometimes Mexico), though there's often no easy pathway from amateur to pro. (Often, the clubs don't want it or can't do it.) HOWEVER ... from what I've seen a lot of other countries do NOT have pro/rel in their youth academy leagues. I don't know if that's a pro or con.

3. I'm not convinced the DMV is a mass-producer of a talent akin to, say, Southern California. I might need to do a data scrape of national teams, MLS and NWSL (I would assume top Euro-based talent would be included in my national-team scrapes) to see how many hail from this area, but from what I've seen anecdotally, it's far less than the boosters would have you believe.

4. I really haven't seen anyone make a case for CCL or VaNPL. I've heard the argument that "well, CCL clubs win State Cups," but would they somehow NOT win State Cups if they were in EDP or NCSL?

5. Even the main argument for club-vs-club matchups -- the notion of having the technical staff and all the A-team players (with parents driving to one place as long as two or more kids are A-teamers) in one place -- seems dead now that we're not talking about A teams. If you have a DA or ECNL presence, surely your technical director is seeing a bunch of those games rather than traveling with you to Virginia Beach to see the B teams.

So while this has indeed been an interesting discussion, it seems like it's mostly about the role of EDP and NCSL.

Can anyone make the case for the elite club-v-club leagues? Or have they simply run their course?

Nice summary and I think that the writing is for the club-v-club leagues is on the wall. Re item 1, I think a better way to describe the purpose of promotion/relegation is to maintain competitive balance and ensure that the leagues/divisions hierarchy is based on sporting merits/strength of the teams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The poster that insists on DA being the only place to have the 'elitist of the elite' is the parent that has a kid in DA or a club with DA.

Most people do not think that Travel Club DA is any better than the top teams in leagues like EDP, etc. Travel Club DA is generally that travel Club's A team, former CCL---but now CCL is no longer for them, etc. So, why drive longer to practice?

MLS DA serves only a niche of families that are willing to drive a long distance. It also serves families that like MLS and see MLS soccer as an option for their kid. There are many people that hate the MLS style and level of play. DCU is the most expensive DA in the entire Country.

The pp is correct that many, many top Universities are still recruiting players outside of DA.

100% - It's still Arlington, Loudoun and PWSI teams. I don't think they are now on some kind of special track because they have DA patches on their shirts and train 3 or 4 days a week.

[Anonymous]

On the girl's side, you ignore the fact that adding DA/ECNL did make those clubs a destination for girls seeking a more competitive level of play and greater exposure.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On the girl's side, you ignore the fact that adding DA/ECNL did make those clubs a destination for girls seeking a more competitive level of play and greater exposure.

Confused here -- who's ignoring this? Are you saying adding DA/ECNL made CCL clubs a destination, and does that mean CCL is still worthwhile?

I think he was responding to the comment that was made that the clubs' DA teams aren't anything special. But the point you raise is a good one, and it gets to the heart of why players choose from the various options. I think the big clubs choose CCL for the ease of scheduling. But players choose the big clubs for their reputations and as destinations where they believe the training and competition is better.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:To catch up on a few random points ...

1. The general purpose of promotion/relegation is parity. It doesn't work for the top divisions of Spain, Scotland, France, etc.., because they have a couple of clubs that are just that much better than everyone else.

2. The "rest of the world" has promotion/relegation in its top pro divisions (aside from Australia and sometimes Mexico), though there's often no easy pathway from amateur to pro. (Often, the clubs don't want it or can't do it.) HOWEVER ... from what I've seen a lot of other countries do NOT have pro/rel in their youth academy leagues. I don't know if that's a pro or con.

3. I'm not convinced the DMV is a mass-producer of a talent akin to, say, Southern California. I might need to do a data scrape of national teams, MLS and NWSL (I would assume top Euro-based talent would be included in my national-team scrapes) to see how many hail from this area, but from what I've seen anecdotally, it's far less than the boosters would have you believe.

4. I really haven't seen anyone make a case for CCL or VaNPL. I've heard the argument that "well, CCL clubs win State Cups," but would they somehow NOT win State Cups if they were in EDP or NCSL?

5. Even the main argument for club-vs-club matchups -- the notion of having the technical staff and all the A-team players (with parents driving to one place as long as two or more kids are A-teamers) in one place -- seems dead now that we're not talking about A teams. If you have a DA or ECNL presence, surely your technical director is seeing a bunch of those games rather than traveling with you to Virginia Beach to see the B teams.

So while this has indeed been an interesting discussion, it seems like it's mostly about the role of EDP and NCSL.

Can anyone make the case for the elite club-v-club leagues? Or have they simply run their course?

I can see the need for one of the club v club league that covers most of Virginia for the far out teams to play each other. Really no reason for local clubs to be part of that though with the other options available.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On the girl's side, you ignore the fact that adding DA/ECNL did make those clubs a destination for girls seeking a more competitive level of play and greater exposure.

Confused here -- who's ignoring this? Are you saying adding DA/ECNL made CCL clubs a destination, and does that mean CCL is still worthwhile?

I think he was responding to the comment that was made that the clubs' DA teams aren't anything special. But the point you raise is a good one, and it gets to the heart of why players choose from the various options. I think the big clubs choose CCL for the ease of scheduling. But players choose the big clubs for their reputations and as destinations where they believe the training and competition is better.

Right -- I certainly can't fault anyone for choosing Loudoun or Arlington or any other club that has a lot of resources.

But if you're on the B team, would you rather be in EDP or NCSL, moving up and down the ladder as needed? Or would you rather be in CCL, where you're going to get one level of competition and that's it?

As a strong CCL/CCLII 2nd Team, it sucks to travel for noncompetitive blowouts. They should allow some of the 2nd teams to compete against 1st teams - we've beat a couple of 1st teams in tournaments, but play their 2nd team on match days. If you are an average 2nd Team in CCL/CCLII then those teams may actually be competitive. But lots of new teams have been added to CCL/CCLII this year, so maybe things will have finally changed, keeping my fingers crossed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On the girl's side, you ignore the fact that adding DA/ECNL did make those clubs a destination for girls seeking a more competitive level of play and greater exposure.

Confused here -- who's ignoring this? Are you saying adding DA/ECNL made CCL clubs a destination, and does that mean CCL is still worthwhile?

I think he was responding to the comment that was made that the clubs' DA teams aren't anything special. But the point you raise is a good one, and it gets to the heart of why players choose from the various options. I think the big clubs choose CCL for the ease of scheduling. But players choose the big clubs for their reputations and as destinations where they believe the training and competition is better.

Right -- I certainly can't fault anyone for choosing Loudoun or Arlington or any other club that has a lot of resources.

But if you're on the B team, would you rather be in EDP or NCSL, moving up and down the ladder as needed? Or would you rather be in CCL, where you're going to get one level of competition and that's it?

As a strong CCL/CCLII 2nd Team, it sucks to travel for noncompetitive blowouts. They should allow some of the 2nd teams to compete against 1st teams - we've beat a couple of 1st teams in tournaments, but play their 2nd team on match days. If you are an average 2nd Team in CCL/CCLII then those teams may actually be competitive. But lots of new teams have been added to CCL/CCLII this year, so maybe things will have finally changed, keeping my fingers crossed.

I think as the DA stuff shakes out over the next few years, the girls u12 and above in the CCL will not be the same. Girls will self select to the DA clubs and those clubs top team will be DA. Their second team maybe CCl or something else. Nationally the DA is crushing everything else.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On the girl's side, you ignore the fact that adding DA/ECNL did make those clubs a destination for girls seeking a more competitive level of play and greater exposure.

Confused here -- who's ignoring this? Are you saying adding DA/ECNL made CCL clubs a destination, and does that mean CCL is still worthwhile?

Sure. A pp suggested that new DA/ECNL teams are not different than last year because they have a patch. Players with talent have bolted good teams for teams that play in the most competitive leagues. Players have left ECNL teams for DA. Teams have left strong non-DA/ECNL for DA/ECNL teams or more competitive non-DA/ECNL teams. Loudoun lost a strong group of girls from the regional champion to FCV because FCV has DA. It is not the patch as much as it is what it represents. Top players want to play against the top competition. The top competition is not found in NPL, CCL or NCSL. It is found in the top half of the DA or ECNL or EDP DI or in the top brackets of Jefferson, Bethesda, WAGs, etc.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:
4. I really haven't seen anyone make a case for CCL or VaNPL. I've heard the argument that "well, CCL clubs win State Cups," but would they somehow NOT win State Cups if they were in EDP or NCSL?

5. Even the main argument for club-vs-club matchups -- the notion of having the technical staff and all the A-team players (with parents driving to one place as long as two or more kids are A-teamers) in one place -- seems dead now that we're not talking about A teams. If you have a DA or ECNL presence, surely your technical director is seeing a bunch of those games rather than traveling with you to Virginia Beach to see the B teams.

So while this has indeed been an interesting discussion, it seems like it's mostly about the role of EDP and NCSL.

Can anyone make the case for the elite club-v-club leagues? Or have they simply run their course?

No one really cares about or wants to defend these leagues which are a club construct. Outside of DA, no one I know has taken their kid to play for a club because it was in a certain league. The reality is just that most of the travel clubs in northern Virginia belong to one of these leagues (CCL, VPL, and now ECNL). I am not sure why you choose to put ECNL on a pedestal above CCL and VPL - at least on the boys side it is far from clear how successful ECNL will be and it requires more travel and expense. I think it is unnecessary and snarky to denigrate all CCL and VPL teams as B teams which is not accurate.

You seem to be a NCSL advocate and it seems to be a fine league and concept. But again the reality is NCSL is losing teams rapidly. Just look at your kid's NCSL age group and click through the past few seasons of standings. Individual players and families have almost zero ability to change the youth soccer setup, all they can do is try to find a team that works and play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:
4. I really haven't seen anyone make a case for CCL or VaNPL. I've heard the argument that "well, CCL clubs win State Cups," but would they somehow NOT win State Cups if they were in EDP or NCSL?

5. Even the main argument for club-vs-club matchups -- the notion of having the technical staff and all the A-team players (with parents driving to one place as long as two or more kids are A-teamers) in one place -- seems dead now that we're not talking about A teams. If you have a DA or ECNL presence, surely your technical director is seeing a bunch of those games rather than traveling with you to Virginia Beach to see the B teams.

So while this has indeed been an interesting discussion, it seems like it's mostly about the role of EDP and NCSL.

Can anyone make the case for the elite club-v-club leagues? Or have they simply run their course?

No one really cares about or wants to defend these leagues which are a club construct. Outside of DA, no one I know has taken their kid to play for a club because it was in a certain league.

Actually, I know of parents who have chosen either CCL or ECNL when their kids didn't make DA, depending on geographic options. McLean Boys ECNL is often talked about as a good option when their kids don't make DA. Before there was ECNL, CCL was the go to. It's not the league itself (any more than it is with the DA). It's more the quality of the teams that are known to be in that club.

I half expect ECNL will gobble up CCL before it's all said and done, because that is effectively what seems to be happening.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

So tell me this -- if you could toss aside all the egos in an ideal world, would we NOT be better off integrating a lot of this? EDP is doing club-v-club but *only* for clubs that have all their teams at an elite level -- is that not better than CCL or VaNPL?

Of course it would be better. But this is not an ideal world. In an ideal world we would not have cancer either.

NCSL (WAGS on the girls side) predated many of these leagues, but we know what has happened there. To remedy this and not repeat history, we need to understand why NCSL/WAGS continues to crumble.