VA Publics worth out of state tuition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Looking at data for several years, I think it’s fair to say that UVA has outpaced William and Mary in popularity. Apples and oranges to some extent, yes. The applicant pools are basically the same, in terms of quality, but moms and dads probably feel better telling their kids to say yes to the bigger brand name. Better value, I think.

This. Absolutely it's true that UVA has become much more popular and is more of a brand name than W&M. Value will depend on what how you define an education -- what it's for. If you value a human scale and interaction with faculty mentors, if you think an education is above all a human enterprise best done face to face and not in huge lecture halls, then you may prefer W&M or another smaller school. Though to be fair, if you're in a smaller department at UVA you may get more faculty contact. If an education is just an exercise in branding then there's no question UVA has the better known more popular brand.

W&M has been moving forward of late. Lots of new facilities. They're well on their way to raising $! billion for the endowment. They've selected a fantastic new President and the outgoing one, Taylor Reveley, did a great deal for the school. They're trying to increase need based aid especially for OOS. In short they're addressing some of the issues have made W&M fall off the radar a bit.

I don't know if they're on the rise, and liberal arts are out of fashion, but the increase in SAT's this year (though apps were down slightly) looks like a good sign.

Perhaps UVA is trending up vs W&M, but we might need more time to determine that. If you look back at historical data on SCHEV site and the school sites, you can see W&M had higher SAT scores than UVA for all but a few years since the early 1990s. Comparing UVA A&S to W&M, UVA only had higher scores in 1997 and 2017. Did anyone say UVA was trending down during that time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It says W&M is a safety school for VA kids with high scores.

How was Radford?

Not sure what that means (or what Radford is), but I assume it’s insulting.

My point was simple. If school A has higher admitted scores, lower matriculant scores and lower yield than school B, it means school A functions more as a safety school for high performers than school B. That doesn’t make school A a bad or a worse school than B. Presumably, it means school A appeals to high performers (many of whom have other options they prefer).

Cross-admits are significantly more likely to choose UVA than W&M, so from one perspective it looks like it is a backup option for UVA. But UVA has a lot more spots to fill, so the stats end up being almost equal between the two. If the pattern switched, and cross-admits favored W&M, W&M's yield and stats would have to go up significantly (unless it expanded class size).

If you look at the Parchment web site, where you can compare which college a student chooses when they have been admitted to both, there is a very interesting pattern. If you look at all the Ivy league schools plus Duke, Gtown, JHU, Vandy, and Tufts and compare them to UVA and W&M, you see that a higher percentage of cross-admits choose W&M than UVA in all cases except for Gtown and JHU (the percentages are equal at Penn). So that means W&M did better on 10 out of 13 and tied on one.

Although all data sources can be flawed, Parchment usually produces the results you would expect for top school comparisons (e.g. Harvard against any other Ivy or vs Duke). My hypothesis would be that W&M is simultaneously considered to be a backup to UVA (or perhaps more correctly a second bet) for a segment of in-state applicants, but also has some inherent appeal for another segment that is reflected in the Parchment data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It says W&M is a safety school for VA kids with high scores.

How was Radford?

Not sure what that means (or what Radford is), but I assume it’s insulting.

My point was simple. If school A has higher admitted scores, lower matriculant scores and lower yield than school B, it means school A functions more as a safety school for high performers than school B. That doesn’t make school A a bad or a worse school than B. Presumably, it means school A appeals to high performers (many of whom have other options they prefer).

Cross-admits are significantly more likely to choose UVA than W&M, so from one perspective it looks like it is a backup option for UVA. But UVA has a lot more spots to fill, so the stats end up being almost equal between the two. If the pattern switched, and cross-admits favored W&M, W&M's yield and stats would have to go up significantly (unless it expanded class size).

If you look at the Parchment web site, where you can compare which college a student chooses when they have been admitted to both, there is a very interesting pattern. If you look at all the Ivy league schools plus Duke, Gtown, JHU, Vandy, and Tufts and compare them to UVA and W&M, you see that a higher percentage of cross-admits choose W&M than UVA in all cases except for Gtown and JHU (the percentages are equal at Penn). So that means W&M did better on 10 out of 13 and tied on one.

Although all data sources can be flawed, Parchment usually produces the results you would expect for top school comparisons (e.g. Harvard against any other Ivy or vs Duke). My hypothesis would be that W&M is simultaneously considered to be a backup to UVA (or perhaps more correctly a second bet) for a segment of in-state applicants, but also has some inherent appeal for another segment that is reflected in the Parchment data.

Parchment data is meaningless. For ex, it says 60% of cross admits choose American University over Amherst College and 40% choose AU over Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It says W&M is a safety school for VA kids with high scores.

How was Radford?

Not sure what that means (or what Radford is), but I assume it’s insulting.

My point was simple. If school A has higher admitted scores, lower matriculant scores and lower yield than school B, it means school A functions more as a safety school for high performers than school B. That doesn’t make school A a bad or a worse school than B. Presumably, it means school A appeals to high performers (many of whom have other options they prefer).

Cross-admits are significantly more likely to choose UVA than W&M, so from one perspective it looks like it is a backup option for UVA. But UVA has a lot more spots to fill, so the stats end up being almost equal between the two. If the pattern switched, and cross-admits favored W&M, W&M's yield and stats would have to go up significantly (unless it expanded class size).

If you look at the Parchment web site, where you can compare which college a student chooses when they have been admitted to both, there is a very interesting pattern. If you look at all the Ivy league schools plus Duke, Gtown, JHU, Vandy, and Tufts and compare them to UVA and W&M, you see that a higher percentage of cross-admits choose W&M than UVA in all cases except for Gtown and JHU (the percentages are equal at Penn). So that means W&M did better on 10 out of 13 and tied on one.

Although all data sources can be flawed, Parchment usually produces the results you would expect for top school comparisons (e.g. Harvard against any other Ivy or vs Duke). My hypothesis would be that W&M is simultaneously considered to be a backup to UVA (or perhaps more correctly a second bet) for a segment of in-state applicants, but also has some inherent appeal for another segment that is reflected in the Parchment data.

Parchment data is meaningless. For ex, it says 60% of cross admits choose American University over Amherst College and 40% choose AU over Harvard.

'

So you pull a data point on an odd compare on Parchment and call it meaningless? Try running a comparison on any of the top national schools and show where it looks like it is off. Harvard wins vs all, Stanford is close second, Duke rates in mid-Ivy league . . . Those all seem pretty plausible.

[Anonymous]

Cross-admits are significantly more likely to choose UVA than W&M, so from one perspective it looks like it is a backup option for UVA. But UVA has a lot more spots to fill, so the stats end up being almost equal between the two. If the pattern switched, and cross-admits favored W&M, W&M's yield and stats would have to go up significantly (unless it expanded class size).

If you look at the Parchment web site, where you can compare which college a student chooses when they have been admitted to both, there is a very interesting pattern. If you look at all the Ivy league schools plus Duke, Gtown, JHU, Vandy, and Tufts and compare them to UVA and W&M, you see that a higher percentage of cross-admits choose W&M than UVA in all cases except for Gtown and JHU (the percentages are equal at Penn). So that means W&M did better on 10 out of 13 and tied on one.

Although all data sources can be flawed, Parchment usually produces the results you would expect for top school comparisons (e.g. Harvard against any other Ivy or vs Duke). My hypothesis would be that W&M is simultaneously considered to be a backup to UVA (or perhaps more correctly a second bet) for a segment of in-state applicants, but also has some inherent appeal for another segment that is reflected in the Parchment data.

I don't know about the reliability of the Parchment data, but this sounds like a very plausible analysis to me based on what I've seen over the years in my DD's FFX County High School. UVA is the shiny object, tho a minority of the upper end of the class will have W&M as a first choice if they're shy or just not into the big flagship thing. While W&M is for sure respected, most kids at this level will opt for UVA.

As for OOS students, its "inherent appeal" is pretty obvious: size, history, beautiful campus, excellent academics, community, somewhat cheaper than full pay at JHU or others you mention. W&M is more like an Ivy than any other public university.

[Anonymous]

I graduated from W&M a while ago (and UVA for graduate school). Back then, there there seemed to be a lot of really smart and qualified OOS kids who could have gone to schools up to the lower end of the Ivy League (which had a bit different composition back then). These kids went to W&M because they liked it, but also because it was a relative bargain. Someone cited an article making a similar point.

With the high OOS tuition today and the large amount of financial aid available from the good private schools, I imagine the situation is different now. I'd speculate that more of the OOS students are probably from wealthier families and they may be less likely to have had offers from top privates.

This doesn't mean W&M or UVA (or other Virginia schools) aren't attractive to OOS applicants. I just think the math is different these days when prospects are looking at offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It says W&M is a safety school for VA kids with high scores.

How was Radford?

Not sure what that means (or what Radford is), but I assume it’s insulting.

My point was simple. If school A has higher admitted scores, lower matriculant scores and lower yield than school B, it means school A functions more as a safety school for high performers than school B. That doesn’t make school A a bad or a worse school than B. Presumably, it means school A appeals to high performers (many of whom have other options they prefer).

Re: "lower matriculant scores", at least on SAT, W&M is usually a bit above UVA if you look at the data (although not for 2017). I agree that many students prefer UVA to W&M, but that would have to be expected if the two schools have such similar stats and UVA is much larger. The question is whether W&M can continue to get mindshare with 25-30% or so of the top students in the state. I'd like to see them succeed because I think it is great for Virginians to have good choices that frankly don't exist in many other states. I also think the two schools have pushed each other a bit, which makes them better. In a lot of states, the anointed flagships have too few challenges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Looking at data for several years, I think it’s fair to say that UVA has outpaced William and Mary in popularity. Apples and oranges to some extent, yes. The applicant pools are basically the same, in terms of quality, but moms and dads probably feel better telling their kids to say yes to the bigger brand name. Better value, I think.

This. Absolutely it's true that UVA has become much more popular and is more of a brand name than W&M. Value will depend on what how you define an education -- what it's for. If you value a human scale and interaction with faculty mentors, if you think an education is above all a human enterprise best done face to face and not in huge lecture halls, then you may prefer W&M or another smaller school. Though to be fair, if you're in a smaller department at UVA you may get more faculty contact. If an education is just an exercise in branding then there's no question UVA has the better known more popular brand.

W&M has been moving forward of late. Lots of new facilities. They're well on their way to raising $! billion for the endowment. They've selected a fantastic new President and the outgoing one, Taylor Reveley, did a great deal for the school. They're trying to increase need based aid especially for OOS. In short they're addressing some of the issues have made W&M fall off the radar a bit.

I don't know if they're on the rise, and liberal arts are out of fashion, but the increase in SAT's this year (though apps were down slightly) looks like a good sign.

Perhaps UVA is trending up vs W&M, but we might need more time to determine that. If you look back at historical data on SCHEV site and the school sites, you can see W&M had higher SAT scores than UVA for all but a few years since the early 1990s. Comparing UVA A&S to W&M, UVA only had higher scores in 1997 and 2017. Did anyone say UVA was trending down during that time?

Early 1990s????? The college admissions wars have completely changed the face of all in-state schools. This year many who expected to get into Va Tech didn't because parents are refusing to spend $75K a year for privates when UVA is available. The demand for these schools has completely changed their reputations and statistical positions - UVA is now listed in top 3 public universities with UCLA and Berkeley. Tech is now moving up rapidly. Tech's enrolled students stats for fall 2018 on SCHEV will be a record breaker. UVA is already above a 4.0 for even the bottom 25% of the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Looking at data for several years, I think it’s fair to say that UVA has outpaced William and Mary in popularity. Apples and oranges to some extent, yes. The applicant pools are basically the same, in terms of quality, but moms and dads probably feel better telling their kids to say yes to the bigger brand name. Better value, I think.

This. Absolutely it's true that UVA has become much more popular and is more of a brand name than W&M. Value will depend on what how you define an education -- what it's for. If you value a human scale and interaction with faculty mentors, if you think an education is above all a human enterprise best done face to face and not in huge lecture halls, then you may prefer W&M or another smaller school. Though to be fair, if you're in a smaller department at UVA you may get more faculty contact. If an education is just an exercise in branding then there's no question UVA has the better known more popular brand.

W&M has been moving forward of late. Lots of new facilities. They're well on their way to raising $! billion for the endowment. They've selected a fantastic new President and the outgoing one, Taylor Reveley, did a great deal for the school. They're trying to increase need based aid especially for OOS. In short they're addressing some of the issues have made W&M fall off the radar a bit.

I don't know if they're on the rise, and liberal arts are out of fashion, but the increase in SAT's this year (though apps were down slightly) looks like a good sign.

Perhaps UVA is trending up vs W&M, but we might need more time to determine that. If you look back at historical data on SCHEV site and the school sites, you can see W&M had higher SAT scores than UVA for all but a few years since the early 1990s. Comparing UVA A&S to W&M, UVA only had higher scores in 1997 and 2017. Did anyone say UVA was trending down during that time?

Early 1990s????? The college admissions wars have completely changed the face of all in-state schools. This year many who expected to get into Va Tech didn't because parents are refusing to spend $75K a year for privates when UVA is available. The demand for these schools has completely changed their reputations and statistical positions - UVA is now listed in top 3 public universities with UCLA and Berkeley. Tech is now moving up rapidly. Tech's enrolled students stats for fall 2018 on SCHEV will be a record breaker. UVA is already above a 4.0 for even the bottom 25% of the class.

Yeah, well, a 4.0 aint what it used to be either. Not so long ago that was considered a very high GPA. Now it's a bit low for the higher ranked colleges. Wonder what has caused the rapid change?

[Anonymous]

According to Naviance data from our MD HS, VT was not as difficult to get into this year.

2018: 36 applied and 24 accepted - 67%
2017: 23 applied and 11 accepted - 48%

Average SAT: 3.49 and SAT 1349

[Anonymous]

Lol. No way

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lol. No way

No way, what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Looking at data for several years, I think it’s fair to say that UVA has outpaced William and Mary in popularity. Apples and oranges to some extent, yes. The applicant pools are basically the same, in terms of quality, but moms and dads probably feel better telling their kids to say yes to the bigger brand name. Better value, I think.

This. Absolutely it's true that UVA has become much more popular and is more of a brand name than W&M. Value will depend on what how you define an education -- what it's for. If you value a human scale and interaction with faculty mentors, if you think an education is above all a human enterprise best done face to face and not in huge lecture halls, then you may prefer W&M or another smaller school. Though to be fair, if you're in a smaller department at UVA you may get more faculty contact. If an education is just an exercise in branding then there's no question UVA has the better known more popular brand.

W&M has been moving forward of late. Lots of new facilities. They're well on their way to raising $! billion for the endowment. They've selected a fantastic new President and the outgoing one, Taylor Reveley, did a great deal for the school. They're trying to increase need based aid especially for OOS. In short they're addressing some of the issues have made W&M fall off the radar a bit.

I don't know if they're on the rise, and liberal arts are out of fashion, but the increase in SAT's this year (though apps were down slightly) looks like a good sign.

Perhaps UVA is trending up vs W&M, but we might need more time to determine that. If you look back at historical data on SCHEV site and the school sites, you can see W&M had higher SAT scores than UVA for all but a few years since the early 1990s. Comparing UVA A&S to W&M, UVA only had higher scores in 1997 and 2017. Did anyone say UVA was trending down during that time?

Early 1990s????? The college admissions wars have completely changed the face of all in-state schools. This year many who expected to get into Va Tech didn't because parents are refusing to spend $75K a year for privates when UVA is available. The demand for these schools has completely changed their reputations and statistical positions - UVA is now listed in top 3 public universities with UCLA and Berkeley. Tech is now moving up rapidly. Tech's enrolled students stats for fall 2018 on SCHEV will be a record breaker. UVA is already above a 4.0 for even the bottom 25% of the class.

"Early 1990s?????" The point was W&M has had the highest SAT scores for state institutions for most years SINCE the early 1990s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Looking at data for several years, I think it’s fair to say that UVA has outpaced William and Mary in popularity. Apples and oranges to some extent, yes. The applicant pools are basically the same, in terms of quality, but moms and dads probably feel better telling their kids to say yes to the bigger brand name. Better value, I think.

This. Absolutely it's true that UVA has become much more popular and is more of a brand name than W&M. Value will depend on what how you define an education -- what it's for. If you value a human scale and interaction with faculty mentors, if you think an education is above all a human enterprise best done face to face and not in huge lecture halls, then you may prefer W&M or another smaller school. Though to be fair, if you're in a smaller department at UVA you may get more faculty contact. If an education is just an exercise in branding then there's no question UVA has the better known more popular brand.

W&M has been moving forward of late. Lots of new facilities. They're well on their way to raising $! billion for the endowment. They've selected a fantastic new President and the outgoing one, Taylor Reveley, did a great deal for the school. They're trying to increase need based aid especially for OOS. In short they're addressing some of the issues have made W&M fall off the radar a bit.

I don't know if they're on the rise, and liberal arts are out of fashion, but the increase in SAT's this year (though apps were down slightly) looks like a good sign.

Perhaps UVA is trending up vs W&M, but we might need more time to determine that. If you look back at historical data on SCHEV site and the school sites, you can see W&M had higher SAT scores than UVA for all but a few years since the early 1990s. Comparing UVA A&S to W&M, UVA only had higher scores in 1997 and 2017. Did anyone say UVA was trending down during that time?

Early 1990s????? The college admissions wars have completely changed the face of all in-state schools. This year many who expected to get into Va Tech didn't because parents are refusing to spend $75K a year for privates when UVA is available. The demand for these schools has completely changed their reputations and statistical positions - UVA is now listed in top 3 public universities with UCLA and Berkeley. Tech is now moving up rapidly. Tech's enrolled students stats for fall 2018 on SCHEV will be a record breaker. UVA is already above a 4.0 for even the bottom 25% of the class.

Yeah, well, a 4.0 aint what it used to be either. Not so long ago that was considered a very high GPA. Now it's a bit low for the higher ranked colleges. Wonder what has caused the rapid change?

I agree. As you suggest, grade inflation is pervasive in high school and college. In high school, it is highest in schools in wealthier areas. In college, it is generally highest at the most prestigious schools.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/07/17/study-finds-notable-increase-grades-high-schools-nationally

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Looking at data for several years, I think it’s fair to say that UVA has outpaced William and Mary in popularity. Apples and oranges to some extent, yes. The applicant pools are basically the same, in terms of quality, but moms and dads probably feel better telling their kids to say yes to the bigger brand name. Better value, I think.

This. Absolutely it's true that UVA has become much more popular and is more of a brand name than W&M. Value will depend on what how you define an education -- what it's for. If you value a human scale and interaction with faculty mentors, if you think an education is above all a human enterprise best done face to face and not in huge lecture halls, then you may prefer W&M or another smaller school. Though to be fair, if you're in a smaller department at UVA you may get more faculty contact. If an education is just an exercise in branding then there's no question UVA has the better known more popular brand.

W&M has been moving forward of late. Lots of new facilities. They're well on their way to raising $! billion for the endowment. They've selected a fantastic new President and the outgoing one, Taylor Reveley, did a great deal for the school. They're trying to increase need based aid especially for OOS. In short they're addressing some of the issues have made W&M fall off the radar a bit.

I don't know if they're on the rise, and liberal arts are out of fashion, but the increase in SAT's this year (though apps were down slightly) looks like a good sign.

Perhaps UVA is trending up vs W&M, but we might need more time to determine that. If you look back at historical data on SCHEV site and the school sites, you can see W&M had higher SAT scores than UVA for all but a few years since the early 1990s. Comparing UVA A&S to W&M, UVA only had higher scores in 1997 and 2017. Did anyone say UVA was trending down during that time?

Early 1990s????? The college admissions wars have completely changed the face of all in-state schools. This year many who expected to get into Va Tech didn't because parents are refusing to spend $75K a year for privates when UVA is available. The demand for these schools has completely changed their reputations and statistical positions - UVA is now listed in top 3 public universities with UCLA and Berkeley. Tech is now moving up rapidly. Tech's enrolled students stats for fall 2018 on SCHEV will be a record breaker. UVA is already above a 4.0 for even the bottom 25% of the class.

"Early 1990s?????" The point was W&M has had the highest SAT scores for state institutions for most years SINCE the early 1990s.

NO, UVA now has the highest entering (not admitted, actually entering) GPA, ACT and SAT scores over W&M. See the Schev report.