Public education: competing interests, philosophical divide

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. When you step back, it seems really strange that as a society, we're desperate to "integrate the schools," and yet the very reason those schools aren't naturally integrated is that our society chooses to self-segregate (largely by race) into neighborhoods. Seems like we're fighting against our own desires.

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone. Some may talk a good game to try to hide their self-interest, but it almost always boils down to self-interest.

3. High-SES families are more likely white. Low-SES families are more likely black. Yes, there are exceptions, and skin color is not destiny. Yes, it's unfair and probably a result of historic racism. But in the end, the correlation is clear.

4. White, high-SES children do much better in school than black, low-SES children. They not only score higher on the various test, but they also make for a less chaotic learning environment. Again, there are exceptions, and skin color and income are not destiny. But on average, it's the correlation is difficult to escape.

5. White parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) Since white parents have more money on average, they accomplish this by moving to neighborhoods that are mostly white and high-SES. They're not opposed to all black kids, or all low-income kids, but they're simply and logically playing the averages that high-SES white schools will be better environments for kids to learn. These white parents dislike school choice models, because they earned, saved, and spent their money to get the best schools, and they don't want others to get the same for free. They also don't want too many low-income black students around, because they're more likely on average to disrupt the learning environment.

6. Black parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) High-SES black parents can accomplish this by simply moving to high-SES white neighborhoods. Low-SES black parents can't afford to move to high-income neighborhoods, so they favor school choice and other mechanisms that allow them to get into high-SES white schools. They're trying to get the best possible learning environment for their kids, and they frankly don't care if they're screwing some white families out of spots.

7. So when white posters here argue for "neighborhood schools," what they're really saying is that they don't want too many low-income black kids disrupting the learning environment. They don't really care about the neighborhood; they just want to help their own kids. When black posters here argue for "school choice" and "integration," what they're really saying is that they just want to get a spot for their own kids in the white schools, so they themselves can escape the crappy low-income black schools. They don't really care about integration in general; they just want to help themselves.

8. I don't think that makes either set of parents bad or racist or evil - parents are just all selfish pricks when it comes to seeking the best for their own kids. Simple evolution.

Cynical, I know. Maybe I've had one too many drinks, so I'm not saying it in a sweet way. But I think that's how most people approach this.

Ok wow, this erases a whole history of racism and income inequality in this city and country. Yes, it's true that all parents want what is best for their kids. But you present it like somehow poor black families are on an even playing field with rich white families. But that is so far from true. That fact is why DCPS leadership might focus in particular on helping lower income families. For a white family to insist and push through their preferences, ignoring the people who are really in need in their neighborhoods and cities, would indeed be racist, in impact, if not in intent. At the same time, of course it is totally legitimate to want the neighborhood school the be a place you can send your kids. But if it's not, don't make some theoretical argument about competing interests in a vacuum. Place the blame where it belongs -- income inequality and the legacy of racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nah. People in Ward 3 aren't afraid of school choice. They rightly know a city-wide lottery will not happen in any time frame that affects their children's (and probably their grandchildren's) education.

It is people in Petworth and Brookland and Bloomingdale with bad lottery luck, who think their IB schools would improve if they could drag back in their neighbors' kids who attend the various charters.

Everyone in those neighborhoods sends their children to MV or TR or YY or CMI, nobody actually attends their local DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Hi. Yep, DS attends Powell. Just to push back on "everybody goes to [insert acronyms for your HRCS]"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone....

Perhaps I am the cynical one, b/c I think you are living in a high SES bubble if you absolutely believe #1. If you knew a wider segment of society, I think you would find that a lot of parent(s) (often a single parent) simply don't put in this amount of thought or effort concerning kids' schools. The kids go to school bc it's the law and bc they have to be somewhere during the day. Why do you think low-performing schools are low-performing schools? Because the parents aren't enforcing the importance of education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When you step back, it seems really strange that as a society, we're desperate to "integrate the schools," and yet the very reason those schools aren't naturally integrated is that our society chooses to self-segregate (largely by race) into neighborhoods. Seems like we're fighting against our own desires.

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone. Some may talk a good game to try to hide their self-interest, but it almost always boils down to self-interest.

3. High-SES families are more likely white. Low-SES families are more likely black. Yes, there are exceptions, and skin color is not destiny. Yes, it's unfair and probably a result of historic racism. But in the end, the correlation is clear.

4. White, high-SES children do much better in school than black, low-SES children. They not only score higher on the various test, but they also make for a less chaotic learning environment. Again, there are exceptions, and skin color and income are not destiny. But on average, it's the correlation is difficult to escape.

5. White parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) Since white parents have more money on average, they accomplish this by moving to neighborhoods that are mostly white and high-SES. They're not opposed to all black kids, or all low-income kids, but they're simply and logically playing the averages that high-SES white schools will be better environments for kids to learn. These white parents dislike school choice models, because they earned, saved, and spent their money to get the best schools, and they don't want others to get the same for free. They also don't want too many low-income black students around, because they're more likely on average to disrupt the learning environment.

6. Black parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) High-SES black parents can accomplish this by simply moving to high-SES white neighborhoods. Low-SES black parents can't afford to move to high-income neighborhoods, so they favor school choice and other mechanisms that allow them to get into high-SES white schools. They're trying to get the best possible learning environment for their kids, and they frankly don't care if they're screwing some white families out of spots.

7. So when white posters here argue for "neighborhood schools," what they're really saying is that they don't want too many low-income black kids disrupting the learning environment. They don't really care about the neighborhood; they just want to help their own kids. When black posters here argue for "school choice" and "integration," what they're really saying is that they just want to get a spot for their own kids in the white schools, so they themselves can escape the crappy low-income black schools. They don't really care about integration in general; they just want to help themselves.

8. I don't think that makes either set of parents bad or racist or evil - parents are just all selfish pricks when it comes to seeking the best for their own kids. Simple evolution.

Cynical, I know. Maybe I've had one too many drinks, so I'm not saying it in a sweet way. But I think that's how most people approach this.

Ok wow, this erases a whole history of racism and income inequality in this city and country. Yes, it's true that all parents want what is best for their kids. But you present it like somehow poor black families are on an even playing field with rich white families. But that is so far from true. That fact is why DCPS leadership might focus in particular on helping lower income families. For a white family to insist and push through their preferences, ignoring the people who are really in need in their neighborhoods and cities, would indeed be racist, in impact, if not in intent. At the same time, of course it is totally legitimate to want the neighborhood school the be a place you can send your kids. But if it's not, don't make some theoretical argument about competing interests in a vacuum. Place the blame where it belongs -- income inequality and the legacy of racism.

So acting in your self-interest is now racist because of crap that happened over 50 years ago?

And blacks never act in their self-interst right?

SMH

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone....

Perhaps I am the cynical one, b/c I think you are living in a high SES bubble if you absolutely believe #1. If you knew a wider segment of society, I think you would find that a lot of parent(s) (often a single parent) simply don't put in this amount of thought or effort concerning kids' schools. The kids go to school bc it's the law and bc they have to be somewhere during the day. Why do you think low-performing schools are low-performing schools? Because the parents aren't enforcing the importance of education.

Yup anyone with any common decency for their offspring would have left the crappy school generations ago. Instead they stay....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi. Yep, DS attends Powell. Just to push back on "everybody goes to [insert acronyms for your HRCS]"

And honestly how long will you be willing to do that? My neighbors rented out their house and moved close to Stoddert because they just couldn't stomach the local DCPS. Another family sold their house and moved to MoCo. It's really easy to say that when we're talking about PreK, but by the time you're staring 2nd grade in the face and the school just can't deliver academically, people decamp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi. Yep, DS attends Powell. Just to push back on "everybody goes to [insert acronyms for your HRCS]"

And honestly how long will you be willing to do that? My neighbors rented out their house and moved close to Stoddert because they just couldn't stomach the local DCPS. Another family sold their house and moved to MoCo. It's really easy to say that when we're talking about PreK, but by the time you're staring 2nd grade in the face and the school just can't deliver academically, people decamp.

+100. But I don't doubt that the academics are serviceable at many a local DCPS/Title 1 elementary school. From what I've observed over the years, what drives many high SES parents out are threatening behaviors by low SES kids with tough home lives, a variety of paternalistic DCPS policies as interpreted by admins in schools where most parents are low SES (do as we say, we know best), weak extra-curricular options, heavy PTA responsibilities to get anything done, and the grind of dealing with reverse racism. You wind up exhausted, and walking on egg shells at the school, along with your kid. Life is short, and you have options, so you go.

[Anonymous]

You criticize my willingness to send my child to a neighborhood school and are cynical that I will continue to do so.

Thank you for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone....

Perhaps I am the cynical one, b/c I think you are living in a high SES bubble if you absolutely believe #1. If you knew a wider segment of society, I think you would find that a lot of parent(s) (often a single parent) simply don't put in this amount of thought or effort concerning kids' schools. The kids go to school bc it's the law and bc they have to be somewhere during the day. Why do you think low-performing schools are low-performing schools? Because the parents aren't enforcing the importance of education.

Yup anyone with any common decency for their offspring would have left the crappy school generations ago. Instead they stay....

Do you think if a diversity-driven public school system offered all low SES parents the opportunity to send their children to high performing, high SES schools across town and provided the transportation, all would jump on the opportunity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When you step back, it seems really strange that as a society, we're desperate to "integrate the schools," and yet the very reason those schools aren't naturally integrated is that our society chooses to self-segregate (largely by race) into neighborhoods. Seems like we're fighting against our own desires.

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone. Some may talk a good game to try to hide their self-interest, but it almost always boils down to self-interest.

3. High-SES families are more likely white. Low-SES families are more likely black. Yes, there are exceptions, and skin color is not destiny. Yes, it's unfair and probably a result of historic racism. But in the end, the correlation is clear.

4. White, high-SES children do much better in school than black, low-SES children. They not only score higher on the various test, but they also make for a less chaotic learning environment. Again, there are exceptions, and skin color and income are not destiny. But on average, it's the correlation is difficult to escape.

5. White parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) Since white parents have more money on average, they accomplish this by moving to neighborhoods that are mostly white and high-SES. They're not opposed to all black kids, or all low-income kids, but they're simply and logically playing the averages that high-SES white schools will be better environments for kids to learn. These white parents dislike school choice models, because they earned, saved, and spent their money to get the best schools, and they don't want others to get the same for free. They also don't want too many low-income black students around, because they're more likely on average to disrupt the learning environment.

6. Black parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) High-SES black parents can accomplish this by simply moving to high-SES white neighborhoods. Low-SES black parents can't afford to move to high-income neighborhoods, so they favor school choice and other mechanisms that allow them to get into high-SES white schools. They're trying to get the best possible learning environment for their kids, and they frankly don't care if they're screwing some white families out of spots.

7. So when white posters here argue for "neighborhood schools," what they're really saying is that they don't want too many low-income black kids disrupting the learning environment. They don't really care about the neighborhood; they just want to help their own kids. When black posters here argue for "school choice" and "integration," what they're really saying is that they just want to get a spot for their own kids in the white schools, so they themselves can escape the crappy low-income black schools. They don't really care about integration in general; they just want to help themselves.

8. I don't think that makes either set of parents bad or racist or evil - parents are just all selfish pricks when it comes to seeking the best for their own kids. Simple evolution.

Cynical, I know. Maybe I've had one too many drinks, so I'm not saying it in a sweet way. But I think that's how most people approach this.

Ok wow, this erases a whole history of racism and income inequality in this city and country. Yes, it's true that all parents want what is best for their kids. But you present it like somehow poor black families are on an even playing field with rich white families. But that is so far from true. That fact is why DCPS leadership might focus in particular on helping lower income families. For a white family to insist and push through their preferences, ignoring the people who are really in need in their neighborhoods and cities, would indeed be racist, in impact, if not in intent. At the same time, of course it is totally legitimate to want the neighborhood school the be a place you can send your kids. But if it's not, don't make some theoretical argument about competing interests in a vacuum. Place the blame where it belongs -- income inequality and the legacy of racism.

So acting in your self-interest is now racist because of crap that happened over 50 years ago?

And blacks never act in their self-interst right?

SMH

Let me spell it out for you. People have different levels of being able to enforce their self-interest through their own power. If you're very poor and dealing with a history of discrimination, then you have less power. Therefore, trying to justify people acting in their self-interest as a good system means that you are perpetuating the disadvantages because rich people have more power than poor people. It's not neutral.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi. Yep, DS attends Powell. Just to push back on "everybody goes to [insert acronyms for your HRCS]"

And honestly how long will you be willing to do that? My neighbors rented out their house and moved close to Stoddert because they just couldn't stomach the local DCPS. Another family sold their house and moved to MoCo. It's really easy to say that when we're talking about PreK, but by the time you're staring 2nd grade in the face and the school just can't deliver academically, people decamp.

+100. But I don't doubt that the academics are serviceable at many a local DCPS/Title 1 elementary school. From what I've observed over the years, what drives many high SES parents out are threatening behaviors by low SES kids with tough home lives, a variety of paternalistic DCPS policies as interpreted by admins in schools where most parents are low SES (do as we say, we know best), weak extra-curricular options, heavy PTA responsibilities to get anything done, and the grind of dealing with reverse racism. You wind up exhausted, and walking on egg shells at the school, along with your kid. Life is short, and you have options, so you go.

Right, it's the fault of the low SES people making the school inhospitable to rich people. As opposed to rich people voting with their feet when they realize ... hey, what we provide to poor people in this country is pretty bad!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone....

Perhaps I am the cynical one, b/c I think you are living in a high SES bubble if you absolutely believe #1. If you knew a wider segment of society, I think you would find that a lot of parent(s) (often a single parent) simply don't put in this amount of thought or effort concerning kids' schools. The kids go to school bc it's the law and bc they have to be somewhere during the day. Why do you think low-performing schools are low-performing schools? Because the parents aren't enforcing the importance of education.

Yup anyone with any common decency for their offspring would have left the crappy school generations ago. Instead they stay....

Do you think if a diversity-driven public school system offered all low SES parents the opportunity to send their children to high performing, high SES schools across town and provided the transportation, all would jump on the opportunity?

No because some are just dumb and unmotivated.... You are basically dsecribing the current charter system

Charters are good because they are giving some poor kids a way out of bad performing schools

Unfortuntatly the only people left then are the truly low of the low. Might as well make it a prison/gang recuritment/drug center at that point.

Seperately I do get the point that a black family wouldn't want to necessariliy go somewhere where they would be in the minority (aka to a richer whiter school vs a school with majority black people)

And finally yes using generalties there are middle and high SES blacks in DC but in general most whites are high ses and most blacks aren't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi. Yep, DS attends Powell. Just to push back on "everybody goes to [insert acronyms for your HRCS]"

And honestly how long will you be willing to do that? My neighbors rented out their house and moved close to Stoddert because they just couldn't stomach the local DCPS. Another family sold their house and moved to MoCo. It's really easy to say that when we're talking about PreK, but by the time you're staring 2nd grade in the face and the school just can't deliver academically, people decamp.

+100. But I don't doubt that the academics are serviceable at many a local DCPS/Title 1 elementary school. From what I've observed over the years, what drives many high SES parents out are threatening behaviors by low SES kids with tough home lives, a variety of paternalistic DCPS policies as interpreted by admins in schools where most parents are low SES (do as we say, we know best), weak extra-curricular options, heavy PTA responsibilities to get anything done, and the grind of dealing with reverse racism. You wind up exhausted, and walking on egg shells at the school, along with your kid. Life is short, and you have options, so you go.

Right, it's the fault of the low SES people making the school inhospitable to rich people. As opposed to rich people voting with their feet when they realize ... hey, what we provide to poor people in this country is pretty bad!

Except that more public money is typically spent per student at low-income, low SES, low-performing schools. You cannot legislate parental involvement, parental education level, or a stable home life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When you step back, it seems really strange that as a society, we're desperate to "integrate the schools," and yet the very reason those schools aren't naturally integrated is that our society chooses to self-segregate (largely by race) into neighborhoods. Seems like we're fighting against our own desires.

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this. Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children. That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone. Some may talk a good game to try to hide their self-interest, but it almost always boils down to self-interest.

3. High-SES families are more likely white. Low-SES families are more likely black. Yes, there are exceptions, and skin color is not destiny. Yes, it's unfair and probably a result of historic racism. But in the end, the correlation is clear.

4. White, high-SES children do much better in school than black, low-SES children. They not only score higher on the various test, but they also make for a less chaotic learning environment. Again, there are exceptions, and skin color and income are not destiny. But on average, it's the correlation is difficult to escape.

5. White parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) Since white parents have more money on average, they accomplish this by moving to neighborhoods that are mostly white and high-SES. They're not opposed to all black kids, or all low-income kids, but they're simply and logically playing the averages that high-SES white schools will be better environments for kids to learn. These white parents dislike school choice models, because they earned, saved, and spent their money to get the best schools, and they don't want others to get the same for free. They also don't want too many low-income black students around, because they're more likely on average to disrupt the learning environment.

6. Black parents want their children to attend the best possible schools. (See Point #1) High-SES black parents can accomplish this by simply moving to high-SES white neighborhoods. Low-SES black parents can't afford to move to high-income neighborhoods, so they favor school choice and other mechanisms that allow them to get into high-SES white schools. They're trying to get the best possible learning environment for their kids, and they frankly don't care if they're screwing some white families out of spots.

7. So when white posters here argue for "neighborhood schools," what they're really saying is that they don't want too many low-income black kids disrupting the learning environment. They don't really care about the neighborhood; they just want to help their own kids. When black posters here argue for "school choice" and "integration," what they're really saying is that they just want to get a spot for their own kids in the white schools, so they themselves can escape the crappy low-income black schools. They don't really care about integration in general; they just want to help themselves.

8. I don't think that makes either set of parents bad or racist or evil - parents are just all selfish pricks when it comes to seeking the best for their own kids. Simple evolution.

Cynical, I know. Maybe I've had one too many drinks, so I'm not saying it in a sweet way. But I think that's how most people approach this.

Ok wow, this erases a whole history of racism and income inequality in this city and country. Yes, it's true that all parents want what is best for their kids. But you present it like somehow poor black families are on an even playing field with rich white families. But that is so far from true. That fact is why DCPS leadership might focus in particular on helping lower income families. For a white family to insist and push through their preferences, ignoring the people who are really in need in their neighborhoods and cities, would indeed be racist, in impact, if not in intent. At the same time, of course it is totally legitimate to want the neighborhood school the be a place you can send your kids. But if it's not, don't make some theoretical argument about competing interests in a vacuum. Place the blame where it belongs -- income inequality and the legacy of racism.

So acting in your self-interest is now racist because of crap that happened over 50 years ago?

And blacks never act in their self-interst right?

SMH

Let me spell it out for you. People have different levels of being able to enforce their self-interest through their own power. If you're very poor and dealing with a history of discrimination, then you have less power. Therefore, trying to justify people acting in their self-interest as a good system means that you are perpetuating the disadvantages because rich people have more power than poor people. It's not neutral.

So poor people are too incompetent to act in their self-interst now? How do the recent asian immigrants do it? They all move to areas that have great schools and many of them dont have any money. Sorry your argument is more defense of the status quo and letting people play the victim card.