Fairfax County: McLean Citizens Association demands smaller class sizes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow. I will try and bring up this "McLean Resolution" with Dr. Garza tomorrow on her listening tour stop. This whole letter is just in poor taste. I'm sure there are some average or underachieving children of wealthy people in general education elementary classes in McLean that could benefit from smaller class sizes, but on the overall, McLean just doesn't have ESL, FARMS, or students in tenuous, at-risk situations, who just do not do well on state tests, SATs, and all other measures of student achievement.

You know what isn't "fair"? That affordable housing is concentrated in Mason, Lee, and Mount Vernon. How about McLean takes on a larger share of the affordable housing pie? It's around 40% in 7 Corners. And, my idiot Mason District Supervisor wants to add another 15% to that. This greatly affects the local schools.

The infinite wisdom of the County BOS causes never ending heartburn for my district, and yet, it isn't enough for the "haves" of Fairfax County.

APPLAUSE!

Now -- how can we dump Penny Gross? (The Supervisor -- not the school principal.)

Sign a petition to get Jessica Swanson on the ballot for a Democratic primary and kick Penny to the curb - http://www.swansonforfairfax.com/

There will be volunteers collecting signatures at Dr. Garza's listening tour tonight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At least some of the underlying data does not take into account aggregation over a grade.

For example, look at Annandale Terrace and the five classes of 1st grade students. The General Ed counts are 20, 15, 17, 19 and 19. When you add that up it totals to 90 kids. So if you divide that by the K-3 state limit of 22, that results in 4.09 classes. So it still results in five classes of 1st grade students. Wouldn't it make sense to try to spread the children out across five classes instead of create four classes of 22 students each and one class with 2 students?

Huh? There will still be breakpoints, but the argument is that they need to occur based on a higher minimum in some areas and a lower maximum in others.

[Anonymous]

Coates and McNair are expected to approach 170% capacity.


Is there some reason those two schools are so crowded? Was there a building boom in that area after the schools were built or something?

Lots of families doubling up in this area. Lots of ESOL, too. Wonder why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At least some of the underlying data does not take into account aggregation over a grade.

For example, look at Annandale Terrace and the five classes of 1st grade students. The General Ed counts are 20, 15, 17, 19 and 19. When you add that up it totals to 90 kids. So if you divide that by the K-3 state limit of 22, that results in 4.09 classes. So it still results in five classes of 1st grade students. Wouldn't it make sense to try to spread the children out across five classes instead of create four classes of 22 students each and one class with 2 students?

You do realize that the FCPS staffing ratio is 26.75, so a class with 90 kids would possibly have 3 teachers in a Chantilly school (lets use Chantilly since it seems to get less attacks than Mclean). Annandale Terrace then would have two additional classes over the Chantilly school. Bucknell might have 6 classes compared to Chantilly's 3. The 22 average is for all of FCPS. There are plenty of schools that are no where near that average and are even above the state caps for class size.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The title of your thread is kind of misleading. The MCA didn't "demand" smaller class sizes. It adopted a resolution urging FCPS to narrow - but not eliminate - the current differences in class sizes.

The issue has been percolating for years, but the School Board has continued to let classes in McLean, Vienna and Great Falls get larger. Test scores remain very high, of course, but the parents see how much smaller the classes are elsewhere in FCPS, as well as in APS and FCCPS, and they feel short-changed and taken for granted.

I would love to know what the average McLean household pays in property taxes - I bet it isn't much more than my husband and I pay, and we are zoned for a title 1 school. Believe it or not, there are pockets of nice properties in other parts of the of the county.

What is your point? Your children do not have the larger class sizes and benefit from the additional resources from the county and elsewhere.

My daughter is not school age yet, but we certainly did not move here for the small class sizes in the local elementary school. That notion is absolutely laughable.

And I see the additional resources that go to Title 1 schools as an equalizer to keep them from being completely in the toilet. I'd rather see slightly larger class sizes, and to also see more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools.

Slightly larger is not what is happening now though. Since you don't have a child in the school system, you don't really know how well they'd do with large class sizes so it makes your comment pretty irrelevant. I agree there should be more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools in terms of pay, but that doesn't mean teachers in other schools should have to deal with overcrowded classrooms. Has there even been a study done on whether title one schools are having difficulty getting teachers? Is Herndon having more trouble getting teachers than McNair? Some of those schools just aren't that convenient to travel to and aren't central to other industries in the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At least some of the underlying data does not take into account aggregation over a grade.

For example, look at Annandale Terrace and the five classes of 1st grade students. The General Ed counts are 20, 15, 17, 19 and 19. When you add that up it totals to 90 kids. So if you divide that by the K-3 state limit of 22, that results in 4.09 classes. So it still results in five classes of 1st grade students. Wouldn't it make sense to try to spread the children out across five classes instead of create four classes of 22 students each and one class with 2 students?

You do realize that the FCPS staffing ratio is 26.75, so a class with 90 kids would possibly have 3 teachers in a Chantilly school (lets use Chantilly since it seems to get less attacks than Mclean). Annandale Terrace then would have two additional classes over the Chantilly school. Bucknell might have 6 classes compared to Chantilly's 3. The 22 average is for all of FCPS. There are plenty of schools that are no where near that average and are even above the state caps for class size.

What is the FRM at Chantilly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The title of your thread is kind of misleading. The MCA didn't "demand" smaller class sizes. It adopted a resolution urging FCPS to narrow - but not eliminate - the current differences in class sizes.

The issue has been percolating for years, but the School Board has continued to let classes in McLean, Vienna and Great Falls get larger. Test scores remain very high, of course, but the parents see how much smaller the classes are elsewhere in FCPS, as well as in APS and FCCPS, and they feel short-changed and taken for granted.

I would love to know what the average McLean household pays in property taxes - I bet it isn't much more than my husband and I pay, and we are zoned for a title 1 school. Believe it or not, there are pockets of nice properties in other parts of the of the county.

What is your point? Your children do not have the larger class sizes and benefit from the additional resources from the county and elsewhere.

My daughter is not school age yet, but we certainly did not move here for the small class sizes in the local elementary school. That notion is absolutely laughable.

And I see the additional resources that go to Title 1 schools as an equalizer to keep them from being completely in the toilet. I'd rather see slightly larger class sizes, and to also see more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools.

Slightly larger is not what is happening now though. Since you don't have a child in the school system, you don't really know how well they'd do with large class sizes so it makes your comment pretty irrelevant. I agree there should be more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools in terms of pay, but that doesn't mean teachers in other schools should have to deal with overcrowded classrooms. Has there even been a study done on whether title one schools are having difficulty getting teachers? Is Herndon having more trouble getting teachers than McNair? Some of those schools just aren't that convenient to travel to and aren't central to other industries in the area.

Well - I don't think I ever want my daughter in a class with 15 students. I like the vibe that groups of 18 - 25 students bring to a class. She's a little shy, like me, but is flourishing in a larger daycare setting that we are sending her to now, rather than the smaller one we were sending her to, and it just makes my heart swell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At least some of the underlying data does not take into account aggregation over a grade.

For example, look at Annandale Terrace and the five classes of 1st grade students. The General Ed counts are 20, 15, 17, 19 and 19. When you add that up it totals to 90 kids. So if you divide that by the K-3 state limit of 22, that results in 4.09 classes. So it still results in five classes of 1st grade students. Wouldn't it make sense to try to spread the children out across five classes instead of create four classes of 22 students each and one class with 2 students?

Huh? There will still be breakpoints, but the argument is that they need to occur based on a higher minimum in some areas and a lower maximum in others.

I agree that there should be lower minimums at Title I schools, particularly at schools with > 40% FRM. As an example, Annandale Terrace was over 78% FRM in 2013-2014 school year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow. I will try and bring up this "McLean Resolution" with Dr. Garza tomorrow on her listening tour stop. This whole letter is just in poor taste. I'm sure there are some average or underachieving children of wealthy people in general education elementary classes in McLean that could benefit from smaller class sizes, but on the overall, McLean just doesn't have ESL, FARMS, or students in tenuous, at-risk situations, who just do not do well on state tests, SATs, and all other measures of student achievement.

You know what isn't "fair"? That affordable housing is concentrated in Mason, Lee, and Mount Vernon. How about McLean takes on a larger share of the affordable housing pie? It's around 40% in 7 Corners. And, my idiot Mason District Supervisor wants to add another 15% to that. This greatly affects the local schools.

The infinite wisdom of the County BOS causes never ending heartburn for my district, and yet, it isn't enough for the "haves" of Fairfax County.

APPLAUSE!

Now -- how can we dump Penny Gross? (The Supervisor -- not the school principal.)

Sign a petition to get Jessica Swanson on the ballot for a Democratic primary and kick Penny to the curb - http://www.swansonforfairfax.com/

There will be volunteers collecting signatures at Dr. Garza's listening tour tonight.

Thank you! I will absolutely sign to get her on the ballot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The title of your thread is kind of misleading. The MCA didn't "demand" smaller class sizes. It adopted a resolution urging FCPS to narrow - but not eliminate - the current differences in class sizes.

The issue has been percolating for years, but the School Board has continued to let classes in McLean, Vienna and Great Falls get larger. Test scores remain very high, of course, but the parents see how much smaller the classes are elsewhere in FCPS, as well as in APS and FCCPS, and they feel short-changed and taken for granted.

I would love to know what the average McLean household pays in property taxes - I bet it isn't much more than my husband and I pay, and we are zoned for a title 1 school. Believe it or not, there are pockets of nice properties in other parts of the of the county.

What is your point? Your children do not have the larger class sizes and benefit from the additional resources from the county and elsewhere.

My daughter is not school age yet, but we certainly did not move here for the small class sizes in the local elementary school. That notion is absolutely laughable.

And I see the additional resources that go to Title 1 schools as an equalizer to keep them from being completely in the toilet. I'd rather see slightly larger class sizes, and to also see more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools.

Slightly larger is not what is happening now though. Since you don't have a child in the school system, you don't really know how well they'd do with large class sizes so it makes your comment pretty irrelevant. I agree there should be more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools in terms of pay, but that doesn't mean teachers in other schools should have to deal with overcrowded classrooms. Has there even been a study done on whether title one schools are having difficulty getting teachers? Is Herndon having more trouble getting teachers than McNair? Some of those schools just aren't that convenient to travel to and aren't central to other industries in the area.

Well - I don't think I ever want my daughter in a class with 15 students. I like the vibe that groups of 18 - 25 students bring to a class. She's a little shy, like me, but is flourishing in a larger daycare setting that we are sending her to now, rather than the smaller one we were sending her to, and it just makes my heart swell.

My children are in HS now, but when they were in ES, the fewest students in a class were 25 and the most they had was 34. There isn't a choice for the 18-25. From what I could see, the class was affected when the class size hit 28-30. There was a definite decline in education with each additional child from that point. 5th grade was a nightmare with 34 students. The classroom was not built for that size class and the level of ambient noise was incredible (despite being a fairly quiet class).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At least some of the underlying data does not take into account aggregation over a grade.

For example, look at Annandale Terrace and the five classes of 1st grade students. The General Ed counts are 20, 15, 17, 19 and 19. When you add that up it totals to 90 kids. So if you divide that by the K-3 state limit of 22, that results in 4.09 classes. So it still results in five classes of 1st grade students. Wouldn't it make sense to try to spread the children out across five classes instead of create four classes of 22 students each and one class with 2 students?

FCPS has a policy interpreting the state maximum class sizes as an average across the whole county- so the smaller class sizes in the Title I classrooms keep FCPS from hitting the state maximums, despite having many schools operating well above those minimums.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At least some of the underlying data does not take into account aggregation over a grade.

For example, look at Annandale Terrace and the five classes of 1st grade students. The General Ed counts are 20, 15, 17, 19 and 19. When you add that up it totals to 90 kids. So if you divide that by the K-3 state limit of 22, that results in 4.09 classes. So it still results in five classes of 1st grade students. Wouldn't it make sense to try to spread the children out across five classes instead of create four classes of 22 students each and one class with 2 students?

Huh? There will still be breakpoints, but the argument is that they need to occur based on a higher minimum in some areas and a lower maximum in others.

I think the point is there has to be 5 classes at Annandale Terrace to meet the Title 1 cap number. Annandale Terrace is not aiming for classrooms with that few children. The reality is there are 90 kids in that grade who attend the school and 90 divided by 22 means 4 full classrooms and one classroom with 2 kids only. Or, recognizing that there has to be 5 classrooms to meet the legal maximum, you end up with 5 classrooms and some have as few as 15 (likely because 2 or more kids left the school - the area has a high mobility rate).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The title of your thread is kind of misleading. The MCA didn't "demand" smaller class sizes. It adopted a resolution urging FCPS to narrow - but not eliminate - the current differences in class sizes.

The issue has been percolating for years, but the School Board has continued to let classes in McLean, Vienna and Great Falls get larger. Test scores remain very high, of course, but the parents see how much smaller the classes are elsewhere in FCPS, as well as in APS and FCCPS, and they feel short-changed and taken for granted.

I would love to know what the average McLean household pays in property taxes - I bet it isn't much more than my husband and I pay, and we are zoned for a title 1 school. Believe it or not, there are pockets of nice properties in other parts of the of the county.

What is your point? Your children do not have the larger class sizes and benefit from the additional resources from the county and elsewhere.

My daughter is not school age yet, but we certainly did not move here for the small class sizes in the local elementary school. That notion is absolutely laughable.

And I see the additional resources that go to Title 1 schools as an equalizer to keep them from being completely in the toilet. I'd rather see slightly larger class sizes, and to also see more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools.

Slightly larger is not what is happening now though. Since you don't have a child in the school system, you don't really know how well they'd do with large class sizes so it makes your comment pretty irrelevant. I agree there should be more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools in terms of pay, but that doesn't mean teachers in other schools should have to deal with overcrowded classrooms. Has there even been a study done on whether title one schools are having difficulty getting teachers? Is Herndon having more trouble getting teachers than McNair? Some of those schools just aren't that convenient to travel to and aren't central to other industries in the area.

Well - I don't think I ever want my daughter in a class with 15 students. I like the vibe that groups of 18 - 25 students bring to a class. She's a little shy, like me, but is flourishing in a larger daycare setting that we are sending her to now, rather than the smaller one we were sending her to, and it just makes my heart swell.

And how many teachers does your child have with 30 kids in her preschool? FCPS has one teacher who has to teach them all to ever increasing standards. And kids in elementary are bigger and their class sizes are about the same size as a preschool class for about 20.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The title of your thread is kind of misleading. The MCA didn't "demand" smaller class sizes. It adopted a resolution urging FCPS to narrow - but not eliminate - the current differences in class sizes.

The issue has been percolating for years, but the School Board has continued to let classes in McLean, Vienna and Great Falls get larger. Test scores remain very high, of course, but the parents see how much smaller the classes are elsewhere in FCPS, as well as in APS and FCCPS, and they feel short-changed and taken for granted.

I would love to know what the average McLean household pays in property taxes - I bet it isn't much more than my husband and I pay, and we are zoned for a title 1 school. Believe it or not, there are pockets of nice properties in other parts of the of the county.

What is your point? Your children do not have the larger class sizes and benefit from the additional resources from the county and elsewhere.

My daughter is not school age yet, but we certainly did not move here for the small class sizes in the local elementary school. That notion is absolutely laughable.

And I see the additional resources that go to Title 1 schools as an equalizer to keep them from being completely in the toilet. I'd rather see slightly larger class sizes, and to also see more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools.

Slightly larger is not what is happening now though. Since you don't have a child in the school system, you don't really know how well they'd do with large class sizes so it makes your comment pretty irrelevant. I agree there should be more incentives to teach at Title 1 schools in terms of pay, but that doesn't mean teachers in other schools should have to deal with overcrowded classrooms. Has there even been a study done on whether title one schools are having difficulty getting teachers? Is Herndon having more trouble getting teachers than McNair? Some of those schools just aren't that convenient to travel to and aren't central to other industries in the area.

Well - I don't think I ever want my daughter in a class with 15 students. I like the vibe that groups of 18 - 25 students bring to a class. She's a little shy, like me, but is flourishing in a larger daycare setting that we are sending her to now, rather than the smaller one we were sending her to, and it just makes my heart swell.

And how many teachers does your child have with 30 kids in her preschool? FCPS has one teacher who has to teach them all to ever increasing standards. And kids in elementary are bigger and their class sizes are about the same size as a preschool class for about 20.

There are a lot of instructors in her preschool, true. But these classes of 35 5th graders don't get teacher's aides?

[Anonymous]

lol! no. One teacher for 35+ kids. Sometimes there might be a special ed aide in the room to help a specific student.