Fairfax County: McLean Citizens Association demands smaller class sizes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

yeah, good luck. Their line is that class size has no effect on student achievement. There are studies that say this.

Yes. My principal told me this as he gave me my 35th first grader. Not in FCPS.

Wow, thirty-five first graders! What school district do you teach in? Do you have a classroom aide?

[Anonymous]

Class size matters a lot:

http://parentsacrossamerica.org/what-we-believe-2/why-class-size-matters/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do studies need to be done? Are these schools that have large classes NOT getting high test scores across the board? Because last I checked, they are doing great in that arena.

Is GreatSchools.org or whatever other nonsense site suddenly giving them ratings below a 9 or 10? No.

Not that I think that this makes having sardine-packed classes the best thing for the kids, but the proof is in the pudding that large class sizes do not affect student achievement.

If you put 5 more kids in a class, that equals 25 more kids that a teacher has over the course of a high school schedule. That means 25 more papers, tests, forms, recommendations, possible IEP forms, etc., etc. For the same salary.

If you don't think that might lead to faster burnout or departure, think again. Could you have your workload increased by 20% without a pay increase and say, "Oh, yeah, this is great." This is not sustainable.

Right, because teachers are clamoring to teach in our lower SES high schools. I forgot about that. Oh, wait - they aren't.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the TJ, Langley and McLean HS teachers are less stressed and more satisfied with their jobs than the J.E.B Stuart, Falls Church, and Lee teachers. Because everyone wants to teach at a school that is barely hanging on to its accreditation (J.E.B. Stuart).

Also, as far as I know, none of this class size discussion is applicable to high school, at least not yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do studies need to be done? Are these schools that have large classes NOT getting high test scores across the board? Because last I checked, they are doing great in that arena.

Is GreatSchools.org or whatever other nonsense site suddenly giving them ratings below a 9 or 10? No.

Not that I think that this makes having sardine-packed classes the best thing for the kids, but the proof is in the pudding that large class sizes do not affect student achievement.

If you put 5 more kids in a class, that equals 25 more kids that a teacher has over the course of a high school schedule. That means 25 more papers, tests, forms, recommendations, possible IEP forms, etc., etc. For the same salary.

If you don't think that might lead to faster burnout or departure, think again. Could you have your workload increased by 20% without a pay increase and say, "Oh, yeah, this is great." This is not sustainable.

Right, because teachers are clamoring to teach in our lower SES high schools. I forgot about that. Oh, wait - they aren't.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the TJ, Langley and McLean HS teachers are less stressed and more satisfied with their jobs than the J.E.B Stuart, Falls Church, and Lee teachers. Because everyone wants to teach at a school that is barely hanging on to its accreditation (J.E.B. Stuart).

Also, as far as I know, none of this class size discussion is applicable to high school, at least not yet.

so to make teachers more misreable and bring them down to the lower rated schools you make larger class ratios? Sounds like a terrible idea.

[Anonymous]

Many of the individuals who are driving education policy in this country, including New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Jeb Bush and Bill Gates, sent their own children to abundantly financed private schools where class sizes were 16 or less, and yet continue to insist that resources, equitable funding, and class size don’t matter — when all the evidence points to the contrary.

As John Dewey wrote, “What the best and wisest parent wants for his own child, that must the community want for all of its children.” If education is really the civil rights issue of our era, it is about time those people making policies for our schools begin to provide for other people’s children what they provide for their own.

From: http://parentsacrossamerica.org/what-we-believe-2/why-class-size-matters/

[Anonymous]

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the TJ, Langley and McLean HS teachers are less stressed and more satisfied with their jobs than the J.E.B Stuart, Falls Church, and Lee teachers. Because everyone wants to teach at a school that is barely hanging on to its accreditation (J.E.B. Stuart).

Not true at all. I taught at Lee. I loved those kids. I had absolutely no designs on teaching at TJ, Langley, etc. Why? Because there are challenges and stresses at those schools as well. Different ones maybe. Teachers work hard in all of these schools. There are many rewards to teaching at the lower socioeconomic schools . . . in fact even more in some ways. You can make a HUGE difference in those schools.

Teachers will work in any school where they are supported and where they are allowed to do what is best for the students that they have.

[Anonymous]

There are many rewards to teaching at the lower socioeconomic schools . . . in fact even more in some ways. You can make a HUGE difference in those schools.

And, FWIW, the difference is not always being displayed on the standardized testing.

Helping people to make progress and to be productive in ways that are meaningful and healthy should not be ignored. But, of course, if the tests are your holy grail, then you won't be interested in teaching at Stuart, Lee, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do studies need to be done? Are these schools that have large classes NOT getting high test scores across the board? Because last I checked, they are doing great in that arena.

Is GreatSchools.org or whatever other nonsense site suddenly giving them ratings below a 9 or 10? No.

Not that I think that this makes having sardine-packed classes the best thing for the kids, but the proof is in the pudding that large class sizes do not affect student achievement.

If you put 5 more kids in a class, that equals 25 more kids that a teacher has over the course of a high school schedule. That means 25 more papers, tests, forms, recommendations, possible IEP forms, etc., etc. For the same salary.

If you don't think that might lead to faster burnout or departure, think again. Could you have your workload increased by 20% without a pay increase and say, "Oh, yeah, this is great." This is not sustainable.

Right, because teachers are clamoring to teach in our lower SES high schools. I forgot about that. Oh, wait - they aren't.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the TJ, Langley and McLean HS teachers are less stressed and more satisfied with their jobs than the J.E.B Stuart, Falls Church, and Lee teachers. Because everyone wants to teach at a school that is barely hanging on to its accreditation (J.E.B. Stuart).

Also, as far as I know, none of this class size discussion is applicable to high school, at least not yet.

In the last FCPS teacher survey, conducted in January-February 2014, teachers at McLean and Falls Church were first and second among the county's 25 high schools in terms of reporting overall job satisfaction. TJ and Lee were towards the middle, Stuart was at the very bottom, and an insufficient number of Langley teachers responded to be counted.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/local/wp/2014/05/21/fairfax-countys-stuart-high-struggles-on-teacher-survey/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do studies need to be done? Are these schools that have large classes NOT getting high test scores across the board? Because last I checked, they are doing great in that arena.

Is GreatSchools.org or whatever other nonsense site suddenly giving them ratings below a 9 or 10? No.

Not that I think that this makes having sardine-packed classes the best thing for the kids, but the proof is in the pudding that large class sizes do not affect student achievement.

If you put 5 more kids in a class, that equals 25 more kids that a teacher has over the course of a high school schedule. That means 25 more papers, tests, forms, recommendations, possible IEP forms, etc., etc. For the same salary.

If you don't think that might lead to faster burnout or departure, think again. Could you have your workload increased by 20% without a pay increase and say, "Oh, yeah, this is great." This is not sustainable.

Right, because teachers are clamoring to teach in our lower SES high schools. I forgot about that. Oh, wait - they aren't.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the TJ, Langley and McLean HS teachers are less stressed and more satisfied with their jobs than the J.E.B Stuart, Falls Church, and Lee teachers. Because everyone wants to teach at a school that is barely hanging on to its accreditation (J.E.B. Stuart).

Also, as far as I know, none of this class size discussion is applicable to high school, at least not yet.

In the last FCPS teacher survey, conducted in January-February 2014, teachers at McLean and Falls Church were first and second among the county's 25 high schools in terms of reporting overall job satisfaction. TJ and Lee were towards the middle, Stuart was at the very bottom, and an insufficient number of Langley teachers responded to be counted.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/local/wp/2014/05/21/fairfax-countys-stuart-high-struggles-on-teacher-survey/

I don't think the class size would make a difference, it's the student's SES

[Anonymous]

Wow, thirty-five first graders! What school district do you teach in? Do you have a classroom aide?

This was MANY years ago in a school system very, very far away. I taught for twelve years--never had fewer than 28. Usually, around 30. and, the studies may not support it, but, believe me, it does make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do studies need to be done? Are these schools that have large classes NOT getting high test scores across the board? Because last I checked, they are doing great in that arena.

Is GreatSchools.org or whatever other nonsense site suddenly giving them ratings below a 9 or 10? No.

Not that I think that this makes having sardine-packed classes the best thing for the kids, but the proof is in the pudding that large class sizes do not affect student achievement.

If you put 5 more kids in a class, that equals 25 more kids that a teacher has over the course of a high school schedule. That means 25 more papers, tests, forms, recommendations, possible IEP forms, etc., etc. For the same salary.

If you don't think that might lead to faster burnout or departure, think again. Could you have your workload increased by 20% without a pay increase and say, "Oh, yeah, this is great." This is not sustainable.

So you've quickly moved from outcomes for students to employment conditions for teachers. You could be right - maybe summers aren't long enough for teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Many of the individuals who are driving education policy in this country, including New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Jeb Bush and Bill Gates, sent their own children to abundantly financed private schools where class sizes were 16 or less, and yet continue to insist that resources, equitable funding, and class size don’t matter — when all the evidence points to the contrary.

As John Dewey wrote, “What the best and wisest parent wants for his own child, that must the community want for all of its children.” If education is really the civil rights issue of our era, it is about time those people making policies for our schools begin to provide for other people’s children what they provide for their own.

From: http://parentsacrossamerica.org/what-we-believe-2/why-class-size-matters/

So parents want a prep school-like environment for their child, without paying the $50k a year in tuition that the Bloombergs and Gates of the world are paying. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Many of the individuals who are driving education policy in this country, including New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Jeb Bush and Bill Gates, sent their own children to abundantly financed private schools where class sizes were 16 or less, and yet continue to insist that resources, equitable funding, and class size don’t matter — when all the evidence points to the contrary.

As John Dewey wrote, “What the best and wisest parent wants for his own child, that must the community want for all of its children.” If education is really the civil rights issue of our era, it is about time those people making policies for our schools begin to provide for other people’s children what they provide for their own.

From: http://parentsacrossamerica.org/what-we-believe-2/why-class-size-matters/

So parents want a prep school-like environment for their child, without paying the $50k a year in tuition that the Bloombergs and Gates of the world are paying. Got it.

Or career politician's - Obama, Clinton, Rahm Emmanuel

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the TJ, Langley and McLean HS teachers are less stressed and more satisfied with their jobs than the J.E.B Stuart, Falls Church, and Lee teachers. Because everyone wants to teach at a school that is barely hanging on to its accreditation (J.E.B. Stuart).

Not true at all. I taught at Lee. I loved those kids. I had absolutely no designs on teaching at TJ, Langley, etc. Why? Because there are challenges and stresses at those schools as well. Different ones maybe. Teachers work hard in all of these schools. There are many rewards to teaching at the lower socioeconomic schools . . . in fact even more in some ways. You can make a HUGE difference in those schools.

Teachers will work in any school where they are supported and where they are allowed to do what is best for the students that they have.

No, seriously - you liked teaching at LEE?? You must be an administrator.

[Anonymous]

My father was both an administrator and a counselor at schools similar to some of the bottom rung fcps schools. And he loved it. He, like the PP, loves to feel like he's made a difference in the lives of these kids. And the difference isn't always able to be quantified.

I'm lucky to have a special person like him in my life. It has taught me so much about life and the real world.