Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?

[FruminousBandersnatch]

Anonymous wrote:

I am free to use science, nature, philosophy, any subject I like to validate belief in God and heaven. That heaven exists is not at issue for believers. We know it does. But we wonder where it exists. If I say it might exists in trees, will you then ask me why I am using plant biology to validate religion? If I say it exists underground at earths core, will you then ask me why I am using geology to validate religion? If I say heaven exists in the oceans, will you ask why I am using oceanography to validate religion. Its absurdity to think I am not permitted to validate my belief system with dark matter. You are looking for a justification to thwart a genuine discussion of religion simply because you reject religion.

Stop sabotaging the discussion, its not necessary for you to understand or join it. Its meant for people who are devout in their belief in God and heaven.

If the existence of Heaven is not an issue for you, then why do you need to use anything to validate your belief?

Your thread is about whether it's possible for Heaven to be in clumps of dark matter and if the discovery of dark matter and/or multiverse hypotheses and/or Brane hypotheses and/or other aspects of string theory open up the possibility that Heaven is located either in this Universe and is detectable via the gravitational effects of dark matter or is in one of the other "spaces" that are implicit if those other theories are correct.

It appears, though, that unless someone is willing you say, "Wow. That's so cool. You might be right Heaven might be in dark matter!" that constitutes sabotaging the discussion to you.

If you want to use science to validate your religious beliefs, then you should learn a lot more about the science you're trying to use. But if you really need science to validate your faith, then I'd say you've got issues with your faith.

[Anonymous]

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.

You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.

I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.

I have no argument with you about whether Heaven exists. (I disagree with you, but there's no point in arguing it because neither of us could prove the point to the other's satisfaction. I would also point out that the initial post in this thread is somewhat theologically uncertain about the nature of the "Seven Heavens" vs. the paradise of the other Abrahamic religions, and it doesn't even reference places like Valhalla, the Happy Hunting Grounds, etc.)

My point is that you are trying to conflate the physical realm with the spiritual, supernatural realm. There is no evidence to imply that there is anything supernatural or spiritual about dark matter, and by trying to tie the location of Heaven (or the Seven Heavens or Valhalla or the afterlife-paradise of your choice) to large clumps of dark matter, and then postulating that immaterial, supernatural, immortal soul, upon death, streaks through a wormhole (something theoretically possible, but never observed) to $paradise$ is simply silly.

Let's consider some of the questions raised by your hypothesis.

If Heaven is out there in some massive clump of dark matter, why would God create Earth so far away? Seems kinda inconvenient. Is God's monitoring of Earth and occasional interactions with people subject to physical limitations like the speed of light? Is prayer subject to those delays? Or does prayer operate via ansible? If God, the angels, and all of the souls are massless and immaterial, what provides the mass of dark matter?

Is there one large, stable wormhole sitting out there (if so, why haven't we noticed its physical effects because each end of a wormhole is a black hole, with all of the gravitational effects that implies), or is a new wormhole created for each soul (again, we might've noticed that, even if the wormholes were small because of the showers of particles that would be created when the wormhole closed).

Perhaps we didn't notice them because the wormholes themselves are so far from Earth. How fast does an immaterial soul travel when it leaves the body to head for the wormhole? Should we postulate that the soul travels at light speed? Does a soul experience time dilation while travelling at light speed? If a soul is made of dark matter and has mass, its acceleration from rest attached to a body to near light speed would release a lot of radiation and would be detectable - especially since with the current population various websites say that roughly 150,000 people die per day.

If a soul is not made of dark matter and is truly immaterial, then why would it have any speed limit and why would it need a transport mechanism like a wormhole? Would a soul notice the passage of time between death and its arrival in Heaven?

If the wormholes are temporary, what provides the energy to open them for each soul?

On the other hand, if God, Heaven, the angels and all of the souls are truly supernatural and have no physical links to this mortal plane, then why would Heaven have to be so far out in the universe? Why wouldn't it be a supernatural realm "right next door" to ours?

There's no evidence that there is anything supernatural or divine about dark matter, and so no reason to assume that it might be the home to a divine entity.

I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation but I'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.

[Anonymous]

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am free to use science, nature, philosophy, any subject I like to validate belief in God and heaven. That heaven exists is not at issue for believers. We know it does. But we wonder where it exists. If I say it might exists in trees, will you then ask me why I am using plant biology to validate religion? If I say it exists underground at earths core, will you then ask me why I am using geology to validate religion? If I say heaven exists in the oceans, will you ask why I am using oceanography to validate religion. Its absurdity to think I am not permitted to validate my belief system with dark matter. You are looking for a justification to thwart a genuine discussion of religion simply because you reject religion.

Stop sabotaging the discussion, its not necessary for you to understand or join it. Its meant for people who are devout in their belief in God and heaven.

If the existence of Heaven is not an issue for you, then why do you need to use anything to validate your belief?

Your thread is about whether it's possible for Heaven to be in clumps of dark matter and if the discovery of dark matter and/or multiverse hypotheses and/or Brane hypotheses and/or other aspects of string theory open up the possibility that Heaven is located either in this Universe and is detectable via the gravitational effects of dark matter or is in one of the other "spaces" that are implicit if those other theories are correct.

It appears, though, that unless someone is willing you say, "Wow. That's so cool. You might be right Heaven might be in dark matter!" that constitutes sabotaging the discussion to you.

If you want to use science to validate your religious beliefs, then you should learn a lot more about the science you're trying to use. But if you really need science to validate your faith, then I'd say you've got issues with your faith.

And you are free to think this if you like. But this thread and discussion is not for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.

You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.

I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.

Not necessarily -- many atheists once believed in heaven and have a fuller understanding of it than current believers, because they studied it carefully, before rejecting it.

If you studied science more, you'd learn that religious concepts are not connected to it.

Most everyone in my family are in the field of science but all are devout. Thats a myth. But they do not need science to justify their belief. Thats really the bottom line.

[Anonymous]

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:... It's a modern version of asking the question how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

DCUM is going to be legendary in cosmology when the Fruminous Theory of Galactic Mass* becomes widely accepted.

* Dark matter consists of angels dancing on the heads of pins.

[FruminousBandersnatch]

Anonymous wrote:

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:... It's a modern version of asking the question how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

DCUM is going to be legendary in cosmology when the Fruminous Theory of Galactic Mass* becomes widely accepted.

* Dark matter consists of angels dancing on the heads of pins.

The tragic thing is that if that's correct then I'm wrong about so many other things. But then isn't that the way it always goes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Well people who are devout believe in the unseen world of angels and souls, and these entities also do not collide. Just makes sense that it could be where heaven is. It just makes it more awesome that science is finally beginning to prove all this.

You're looking at this backwards from a scientific perspective. You are assuming that heaven/etc. exists and then trying to say, "See - all this new stuff they're finding out could be where heaven is."

Science, on the other hand, looks at the evidence and draws conclusion from the evidence. There is no scientific evidence that heaven exists. There is no supernatural requirement associated with the theories around dark matter or any other cosmological theories.

I think that should have been evident from the title of my thread. This thread assumes heaven exists. It is a topic that only people of faith would understand, not atheists. So I ask again- why are you here to discuss where heaven exists, if you can not even accept that heaven even exists in the first place? We are going in circles with atheists on a thread that discusses a religious concept and its connection to science. If dark matter interests you, start a topic in off-topic. This thread assumes heaven does exist because people of faith believe that. Its not up for debate here.

Not necessarily -- many atheists once believed in heaven and have a fuller understanding of it than current believers, because they studied it carefully, before rejecting it.

If you studied science more, you'd learn that religious concepts are not connected to it.

Most everyone in my family are in the field of science but all are devout. Thats a myth. But they do not need science to justify their belief. Thats really the bottom line.

What's a myth? that people in science are not devout? many are not -- especially the most successful ones, in the National academy of sciences.

The second part is true, though -- many people do not need science to justify their beliefs -- they just need lots of faith. Just as well, because science doesn't justify religious belief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[
I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation butI'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.

then why are you trying to show how your beliefs fit with science?

[Anonymous]

Wow - dark matter could be be where the seven heavens lie!

scientific proof of heaven is at hand. Religious beliefs are likely to be validated by science!

Happy now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation butI'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.

then why are you trying to show how your beliefs fit with science?

Because its a glorious moment for believers when science can validate what we always knew to be true. It reaffirms our faith. But it was not needed to instill it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation butI'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.

then why are you trying to show how your beliefs fit with science?

Because its a glorious moment for believers when science can validate what we always knew to be true. It reaffirms our faith. But it was not needed to instill it.

And, yet, you admitted to not reading FruminousBandersnatch's post explaining why science would make it difficult for your hypothesis about Heaven being out in the dark matter to be correct. So your "glorious moment" is just you looking at a scientific result that you don't actually understand and saying, "Wow. This might validate my faith!" And when people who actually understand the science (and seem to have a better grasp of theology) weigh in, you get pissy and say they're disrupting the conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation butI'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.

then why are you trying to show how your beliefs fit with science?

Because its a glorious moment for believers when science can validate what we always knew to be true. It reaffirms our faith. But it was not needed to instill it.

in other words, faith is formed completely without scientific evidence and people will believe things like a heaven where people (good ones, anyway) will live forever, that contradicts everything they learn about science, but then when science comes along to suggest there might be scientific proof of it (even if it doesn't really) then that reaffirms something that disregarded science in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation butI'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.

then why are you trying to show how your beliefs fit with science?

Because its a glorious moment for believers when science can validate what we always knew to be true. It reaffirms our faith. But it was not needed to instill it.

But history indicates that lack of scientific evidence will not impede people who are determined to believe. Like when the 19th century theologians started studying how the Bible was formed and found it was cobbled together over centuries and mistranslated and borrowed from older myths. Some people have difficulty maintaining faith after learning that, but others soldier on, either denying all the scholarship or making all kinds of complicated rationalizations about why the Bible is still the word of God.

And scholars went to the holy land to find archeological evidence of the exodus and found exactly nothing in the desert and no sign of a population of Jewish slaves in Egypt. But that empirical evidence doesn't stop the truly faithful from believing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

FruminousBandersnatch wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am free to use science, nature, philosophy, any subject I like to validate belief in God and heaven. That heaven exists is not at issue for believers. We know it does. But we wonder where it exists. If I say it might exists in trees, will you then ask me why I am using plant biology to validate religion? If I say it exists underground at earths core, will you then ask me why I am using geology to validate religion? If I say heaven exists in the oceans, will you ask why I am using oceanography to validate religion. Its absurdity to think I am not permitted to validate my belief system with dark matter. You are looking for a justification to thwart a genuine discussion of religion simply because you reject religion.

Stop sabotaging the discussion, its not necessary for you to understand or join it. Its meant for people who are devout in their belief in God and heaven.

If the existence of Heaven is not an issue for you, then why do you need to use anything to validate your belief?

Your thread is about whether it's possible for Heaven to be in clumps of dark matter and if the discovery of dark matter and/or multiverse hypotheses and/or Brane hypotheses and/or other aspects of string theory open up the possibility that Heaven is located either in this Universe and is detectable via the gravitational effects of dark matter or is in one of the other "spaces" that are implicit if those other theories are correct.

It appears, though, that unless someone is willing you say, "Wow. That's so cool. You might be right Heaven might be in dark matter!" that constitutes sabotaging the discussion to you.

If you want to use science to validate your religious beliefs, then you should learn a lot more about the science you're trying to use. But if you really need science to validate your faith, then I'd say you've got issues with your faith.

And you are free to think this if you like. But this thread and discussion is not for you.

No, this thread is for people who think like OP, and apparently there are very few of those interested in posting. God's will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation butI'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.

then why are you trying to show how your beliefs fit with science?

Because its a glorious moment for believers when science can validate what we always knew to be true. It reaffirms our faith. But it was not needed to instill it.

If so, then believers have had precious few glorious moments - no validation is possible for any of the miracles (virgin birth, resurrection, etc) because things that are outside of nature can't be affirmed via the scientific method.

Besides, who except for OP has mentioned this "glorious moment?" It's nowhere in the bible -- the bible never even heard of science.