Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is that a Greek man first theorized the curvature of the earth, going against universal existing belief of a flat earth, and relying, in part, on faith because gravity had yet to be fully understood at the time. For all he knew, ships could be falling off the edge of a flat sea, but he trusted based only on a simple observation. I have been reading the other threads on NDE and clearly NDE'ers are similarly relying on their own observation and, also, in part, faith.

So if someday science can provide imperial evidence for NDEs then we will know they are a natural phenomenon and not proof of an afterlife in a supernatural realm, just as gravity was eventually proved.

I don't quite know that gravity has been "proved". People always knew that things fall down. Over the centuries, from Aristotle, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein, we got better and better mathematical information about how this phenomenon works. But I don't think any of this goes beyond how it works to why it is there or what its essence is. Maybe gravity is the will of God holding his Creation together and controlling its motions. I'm an atheist, but I see nothing intellectually inconsistent in a scientist believing in God and pursuing science because he or she wants to understand the rules by which the Creator ordered Creation.

For me, the universe IS, and it is possible to learn more about how it works, so that we can predict, and even affect, what will happen, and create tools and machines that use the laws of nature. WHY it is, that's a question that I don't think it is possible to know, and it's a matter of how each of us sees the world whether, like me, you leave it at "We just don't know that" or whether you feel there has to be a reason and you ascribe to a religion or some other belief structure that provides an answer.

That scientist would be a deist -- a creator god only -- not the god of the Bible who has a whole back story and set up a bunch of rules for people to follow thousands of years ago and hasn't been back since.

NP. I am a religious person and I agree with the PP who said, "] I see nothing intellectually inconsistent in a scientist believing in God and pursuing science because he or she wants to understand the rules by which the Creator ordered Creation"

That said, the "god of the Bible" that is being described above is not quite accurate.

Science is a bunch of rules for people to follow. For people and all of creation to follow. Like God, science also has a back story. Last, the God of the bible never left. Most all religious people believe that God is omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent.

And in his infinite wisdom, he does nothing to stop tsumanis or disease or brutal wars. And he loves us

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is that a Greek man first theorized the curvature of the earth, going against universal existing belief of a flat earth, and relying, in part, on faith because gravity had yet to be fully understood at the time. For all he knew, ships could be falling off the edge of a flat sea, but he trusted based only on a simple observation. I have been reading the other threads on NDE and clearly NDE'ers are similarly relying on their own observation and, also, in part, faith.

So if someday science can provide imperial evidence for NDEs then we will know they are a natural phenomenon and not proof of an afterlife in a supernatural realm, just as gravity was eventually proved.

I don't quite know that gravity has been "proved". People always knew that things fall down. Over the centuries, from Aristotle, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein, we got better and better mathematical information about how this phenomenon works. But I don't think any of this goes beyond how it works to why it is there or what its essence is. Maybe gravity is the will of God holding his Creation together and controlling its motions. I'm an atheist, but I see nothing intellectually inconsistent in a scientist believing in God and pursuing science because he or she wants to understand the rules by which the Creator ordered Creation.

For me, the universe IS, and it is possible to learn more about how it works, so that we can predict, and even affect, what will happen, and create tools and machines that use the laws of nature. WHY it is, that's a question that I don't think it is possible to know, and it's a matter of how each of us sees the world whether, like me, you leave it at "We just don't know that" or whether you feel there has to be a reason and you ascribe to a religion or some other belief structure that provides an answer.

That scientist would be a deist -- a creator god only -- not the god of the Bible who has a whole back story and set up a bunch of rules for people to follow thousands of years ago and hasn't been back since.

NP. I am a religious person and I agree with the PP who said, "] I see nothing intellectually inconsistent in a scientist believing in God and pursuing science because he or she wants to understand the rules by which the Creator ordered Creation"

That said, the "god of the Bible" that is being described above is not quite accurate.

Science is a bunch of rules for people to follow. For people and all of creation to follow. Like God, science also has a back story. Last, the God of the bible never left. Most all religious people believe that God is omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent.

And in his infinite wisdom, he does nothing to stop tsumanis or disease or brutal wars. And he loves us

You need to speak to a knowledgeable rabbi, priest, imam, or any clergyman. This is one of the first questions a child will ask as soon as he understands the concept of God. God is perfect. Perfect does not mean He gives you all that you desire and protects people from all harm. This life is a test to see who stays on Gods path and who can be led astray by Satan. Satan will indeed lead a great multitude astray. They will create mischief and spread evil on earth. Some will be harmed by those led astray. Natural disasters will occur for different reasons. Some think God destroys cities because of people's bad behavior ( Sodom and Gomorrah). Some think the hurricane impact on New Orleans may have been due to the corruption of lawmakers and hedonistic lifestyle of people. There is no proof as God is not here to clarify why some cities suffer from natural disasters. But we know God disapproves of certain acts.

The notion that God might be a kindly white bearded man in a long, white overflowing robe who can never get upset at anyone is a very influenced by the Christian view of Jesus. That is not the God of other religions. In my religion, life is a test so every human has a degree of free will to choose good or evil. Harm may result to your fellow man as a result of evil choices. In the end, we are all judged according to our choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

People with faith are hardly stupid. They know something in their heart with such absolute certainty that scientific evidence is not required. Some people call it intuition. Others say this is how God guides people. There are plenty of well educated people who are surgeons, professors, lawyers who are devout in their belief. One would hardly call them stupid. You, as an atheist, need concrete proof because you don't feel anything in your heart. I think even if you saw some evidence, you would deny it initially. There is some evidence but if your mind is set against it, you will not be open to belief.

I think within the next 100 yrs, science will progress rapidly, and our great grandchildren will have more concrete proof of God and an afterlife. They may not understand God completely still, but they may know He exists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

Btw, this is the kind of mockery and insults that make believers angry. If you can't argue on the merits and it leads you to insults and mockery, chances are you ran out of relevant things to add to this discourse and its time for you to move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

People with faith are hardly stupid. They know something in their heart with such absolute certainty that scientific evidence is not required. Some people call it intuition. Others say this is how God guides people. There are plenty of well educated people who are surgeons, professors, lawyers who are devout in their belief. One would hardly call them stupid. You, as an atheist, need concrete proof because you don't feel anything in your heart. I think even if you saw some evidence, you would deny it initially. There is some evidence but if your mind is set against it, you will not be open to belief.

I think within the next 100 yrs, science will progress rapidly, and our great grandchildren will have more concrete proof of God and an afterlife. They may not understand God completely still, but they may know He exists.

No, they're just stupid about their faith. Smart people can have blind spots, especially when they're been indoctrinated as children and the society supports their beliefs, or at least doesn't openly oppose them. Luckily, that is changing. Fewer children are being raised with religion and the society doesn't support it as much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

Btw, this is the kind of mockery and insults that make believers angry. If you can't argue on the merits and it leads you to insults and mockery, chances are you ran out of relevant things to add to this discourse and its time for you to move on.

Sometimes when people get angry they start thinking about things more -- that could be good. Perhaps you invite people to leave when you no longer have a good argument?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

People with faith are hardly stupid. They know something in their heart with such absolute certainty that scientific evidence is not required. Some people call it intuition. Others say this is how God guides people. There are plenty of well educated people who are surgeons, professors, lawyers who are devout in their belief. One would hardly call them stupid. You, as an atheist, need concrete proof because you don't feel anything in your heart. I think even if you saw some evidence, you would deny it initially. There is some evidence but if your mind is set against it, you will not be open to belief.

I think within the next 100 yrs, science will progress rapidly, and our great grandchildren will have more concrete proof of God and an afterlife. They may not understand God completely still, but they may know He exists.

Since the dawn of human life, children have looked to their parents for guidance on mystery of life. This "faith" you talk about is really faith in the father, faith in your parents, when confronted with a reality that has no explanation.

There is no god. No one will ever have physical proof.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

People with faith are hardly stupid. They know something in their heart with such absolute certainty that scientific evidence is not required. Some people call it intuition. Others say this is how God guides people. There are plenty of well educated people who are surgeons, professors, lawyers who are devout in their belief. One would hardly call them stupid. You, as an atheist, need concrete proof because you don't feel anything in your heart. I think even if you saw some evidence, you would deny it initially. There is some evidence but if your mind is set against it, you will not be open to belief.

I think within the next 100 yrs, science will progress rapidly, and our great grandchildren will have more concrete proof of God and an afterlife. They may not understand God completely still, but they may know He exists.

contradictions! either science is needed to confirm faith or it isn't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

People with faith are hardly stupid. They know something in their heart with such absolute certainty that scientific evidence is not required. Some people call it intuition. Others say this is how God guides people. There are plenty of well educated people who are surgeons, professors, lawyers who are devout in their belief. One would hardly call them stupid. You, as an atheist, need concrete proof because you don't feel anything in your heart. I think even if you saw some evidence, you would deny it initially. There is some evidence but if your mind is set against it, you will not be open to belief.

I think within the next 100 yrs, science will progress rapidly, and our great grandchildren will have more concrete proof of God and an afterlife. They may not understand God completely still, but they may know He exists.

No, they're just stupid about their faith. Smart people can have blind spots, especially when they're been indoctrinated as children and the society supports their beliefs, or at least doesn't openly oppose them. Luckily, that is changing. Fewer children are being raised with religion and the society doesn't support it as much.

Belief in God is not likely to change anytime soon regardless of religious affinity. One does not need a religion to believe in God. What I think is stupid is to call billions of people stupid simply because you can not understand how God can exist. The evidence is there in terms of old and new testament prophesies, NDE's, in the fact that even former atheists validated an afterlife from their NDEs. If you need to be hit over the head with evidence, you'll just have to wait until you pass away and experience it for yourself. Too bad we won't be able to see the look on your face when you finally realize Gods word was true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

People with faith are hardly stupid. They know something in their heart with such absolute certainty that scientific evidence is not required. Some people call it intuition. Others say this is how God guides people. There are plenty of well educated people who are surgeons, professors, lawyers who are devout in their belief. One would hardly call them stupid. You, as an atheist, need concrete proof because you don't feel anything in your heart. I think even if you saw some evidence, you would deny it initially. There is some evidence but if your mind is set against it, you will not be open to belief.

I think within the next 100 yrs, science will progress rapidly, and our great grandchildren will have more concrete proof of God and an afterlife. They may not understand God completely still, but they may know He exists.

No, they're just stupid about their faith. Smart people can have blind spots, especially when they're been indoctrinated as children and the society supports their beliefs, or at least doesn't openly oppose them. Luckily, that is changing. Fewer children are being raised with religion and the society doesn't support it as much.

Belief in God is not likely to change anytime soon regardless of religious affinity. One does not need a religion to believe in God. What I think is stupid is to call billions of people stupid simply because you can not understand how God can exist. The evidence is there in terms of old and new testament prophesies, NDE's, in the fact that even former atheists validated an afterlife from their NDEs. If you need to be hit over the head with evidence, you'll just have to wait until you pass away and experience it for yourself. Too bad we won't be able to see the look on your face when you finally realize Gods word was true.

Maybe you will. Maybe part of your heavenly reward will be witnessing atheists dismay upon learning they've been consigned to hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those "some" human are over 51% of the world's population and 9/10 of Americans that believe in an afterlife. And all acknowledge that there is a Creator far superior to them who they will have to answer to upon death for their actions in life. Doesn't sound egotistical at all to me. Such reverence towards God is actually humility, something atheists seem unable or unwilling to have. Now that is egotistical.

What' egotistical is thinking that if you worship an invisible God adequately, you will have eternal life.

Nah. Its called humility and submission. Thinking you know enough to deny the existence of things you can not explain is egotistical.

thinking that you should believe things for which there is no evidence is stupidity.

There are lots of things you can't explain -- fairies, werewolves, the loch ness monster. Most people don't believe in them -- but then those things don't promise eternal life, or threaten you with severe punishment if you don't believe in them, so it's easier to not believe in them

Btw, this is the kind of mockery and insults that make believers angry. If you can't argue on the merits and it leads you to insults and mockery, chances are you ran out of relevant things to add to this discourse and its time for you to move on.

Sometimes when people get angry they start thinking about things more -- that could be good. Perhaps you invite people to leave when you no longer have a good argument?

Umm nobody is "inviting" anyone to leave. What a strange way to put it. I'm suggesting you learn to stop the insults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You need to speak to a knowledgeable rabbi, priest, imam, or any clergyman. This is one of the first questions a child will ask as soon as he understands the concept of God. God is perfect. Perfect does not mean He gives you all that you desire and protects people from all harm. This life is a test to see who stays on Gods path and who can be led astray by Satan. Satan will indeed lead a great multitude astray. They will create mischief and spread evil on earth. Some will be harmed by those led astray. Natural disasters will occur for different reasons. Some think God destroys cities because of people's bad behavior ( Sodom and Gomorrah). Some think the hurricane impact on New Orleans may have been due to the corruption of lawmakers and hedonistic lifestyle of people. There is no proof as God is not here to clarify why some cities suffer from natural disasters. But we know God disapproves of certain acts.

The notion that God might be a kindly white bearded man in a long, white overflowing robe who can never get upset at anyone is a very influenced by the Christian view of Jesus. That is not the God of other religions. In my religion, life is a test so every human has a degree of free will to choose good or evil. Harm may result to your fellow man as a result of evil choices. In the end, we are all judged according to our choices.

I doubt you could find very many "knowledgeable" clergy persons to talk seriously about Satan - unless they were fundamentalists who believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. Many believers reject that idea these days, though they still hold on to the idea of a benevolent god (despite all the evidence to the contrary) and eternal life in heaven.