Do some parents just have bad luck in the kid department?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Why can’t you “go to many restaurants”? They don’t have to eat there, do they?
I have a friend who has a DD with eating challenges (only a few foods) and she just gives her what she brought for her when they go to restaurants with friends

PP you are responding to and my child is still completely disgusted by the sight of and smell of some foods and will literally vomit from having them in their proximity. They have also had full on panic attacks in challenging restaurants. They can go to many more than they could at 2! But it’s still incredibly stressful for the whole family and not something we take lightly. I am happy for your friend their child’s challenges are much more mild, but please don’t make the mid of thinking that approach works for everyone (and I hate to say it but restaurants start to push back on bringing outside food when the kid looks more like an adult, even if you explain the child’s difficulty in excruciating detail).

NP with a kid who has ARFID and I really feel you -- I have been there and it sucks because nobody understands and they all think it's just normal pickiness or that you just didn't offer enough food variety when your kid was a toddler or something.

That said, I do actually appreciate the PP's comment because I think the idea is that you don't have to do it the way other people do it. My kid also has those extreme food aversions to the point of gagging even at the sight or smell of food. But we'd look for any opening. So like for years we only went out to eat if it was one restaurant our kid could tolerate OR we could sit outside where our kid wouldn't have to smell the food and could even walk away from the table if necessary. Like for years that's what we did. So we'd eat out in the summer a lot more because there are lots of patios like that. With time and also lots of therapy that improved and now our kid can go in pretty much any restaurant, even though the range of foods she'll eat is still really narrow. I still bring food pretty much everywhere just to ensure she gets proper nutrition and we do staggered meals a lot (she'll eat her meal at home before we go out, and then DH and I will order food at the restaurant and she will just have a drink or maybe a small side or dessert).

The thing I had to get over was the judgment, because there's so much of it. But eventually I just hit a point where I accepted that no one was going to get it and lots of people would judge or think they knew better. Oh well. I live it so I know. My kid is never going to be an adventurous eater and who knows maybe we'll never have normal restaurant meals with her but we've found a way to make it work so we aren't shut ins for the rest of our lives and we can still travel. You deserve to have a life and not have to structure absolutely everything around your kids disability. I say that from experience and with empathy, not with judgment. I hope you find a way to have meals that are joyful and that nourish you. I know how hard it is when you are right in the thick of it and feel like your options are really restricted.

Look I know you are trying to be helpful, I KNOW you are, but it would be so great if you, as a fellow ARFID parent, could just hear that I am not asking for advice in this thread. I’m explaining how incredibly hard we have worked and how far my child has come even if it doesn’t look like it to you and my kid still looks “subpar” in this respect. We are still on our journey, and as I described we do go to restaurants and my child can go to more than they could previously, a lot more! This has been a huge goal for our whole family since this child was two, that we have worked one with a team of professionals, and I really don’t appreciate a lecturing post from someone who really doesn’t know our particular situation. We have to go VERY SLOWLY with increasing my child’s tolerance or it’s counter productive. I wish you well and I’m glad your child has a milder form of ARFID than mine.

I didn't call your kid subpar and I don't think my kid's ARFID is necessarily milder and than yours (I think my kid is older and has been in treatment for longer). I wasn't lecturing at all, just sharing my experience. YOU are the one lecturing.

Good luck with your kid. ARFID is really hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ignore 12:58, she's a smug fool.

COPE

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have so many friends and colleagues who have kids with special needs of one kind or another and to varying degrees of special. This quantity is so much higher than when I was a kid - must be some environmental change.

Older dads — a lot is older dads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Genes are very important. Some parents can do everything right and their kid still ends up being a train wreck. This is a little bit more likely to happen to affluent families that adopt because their adopted kids are often genetically average ( or below average) unlike the parents that tend to be genetically above average.

Oh look. The eugenics folks have shown up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have so many friends and colleagues who have kids with special needs of one kind or another and to varying degrees of special. This quantity is so much higher than when I was a kid - must be some environmental change.

Older dads — a lot is older dads.

Maybe true for some, not sure, but definitely not true for the cases I have seen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

DP but it always makes me wonder if some kids just need harsher treatment than others. If he were to run 5 miles before school to get the bad energy out and was punished for every bad grade (in addition to all the therapy), would he stop getting in trouble?

There was a poster upthread who said she was well behaved because terrified of her mother. While this is unhealthy, a healthy dose of being scared might actually be good? Maybe?

Oh my word. No, that wouldn't help.

Trying to make her exercise made her more aggressive, due to the adrenaline flowing, if I managed to somehow get her to exercise... and short of abuse, there's no way to force a teen to do anything they don't want to do.

When I started with her, I decided that I wasn't going to say anything that I couldn't enforce. Trying to ground her would have meant trying to stay awake 24/7 and running back and forth between 3 doors to keep her in. Forbidding her from going with friends would have meant staying awake to keep her in *and* avoiding vehicles on three sides of the house. Taking away her phone wouldn't have been acceptable to her lawyer or extended family. Any "punishment" caused her to lash out at me (verbally, physically, destructive) and I had no way to defend myself without having her arrested.

For us? What worked was a combination of short and long term incentives tied to behavior and academics. She had to have external motivation since she had no internal motivation (destroyed by parents over a lifetime of abuse, if she had any initially). I called the police to document severe emotional disturbance, substance abuse beyond the norm, assault, specific and graphic threats of harm/death, and destruction of property in order to get her help, not as punishment.

We decided (together) on a list of privileges. Every single item was negotiated, and we made a list of how every single one would be earned. As her behavior improved, we moved the goalposts incrementally, but again, that was negotiated from the start.

As of her 18th birthday, she has graduated high school, has followed through on the plan to learn to drive and get her license, and understands that people will react to things she says just as much as things that she does.

FWIW? Many, many kids/teens aren't scared of anything that a reasonable, rational adult would threaten. They either have been through enough to no longer be scared of less extreme danger, have no sense of self-preservation left at all, or know the adult is blowing how air.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"My kid is inherently bad" is just cope. Even Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler with better parents. Donald Trump probably wouldn't be this absolutely nightmare if his parents had actually loved him instead of shipping him off to military school or whatever.

No one is a perfect parent but 99.99999999999% of kids I've met will be okay if they get enough of the right kind of love and support. Every total nightmare of a kid I've encountered has had one or both parents who are in some way abusive or neglectful. Sometimes in a way they are unaware of. Like I know a girl who is very rageful and angry and her parents are like "yup, that's just how she is" but then they will turn around and tell her, to her face, that her siblings are just better people than she is. Ummmm. That's crap parenting, no wonder that kid is miserable. But the parents can't even see it because they are frustrated and have written her off and only see their own experience dealing with a tough kid and can't step outside themselves and see what it must be like to be a child whose parents just do not like her. That family could benefit enormously from individual and group counseling but what are you going to say? It all sucks but that kid isn't just broken. She's a person who doesn't feel loved or accepted by her family and is acting out in a somewhat predictable way. It probably feels a lot more obvious from outside that dysfunction.

But yeah, this idea that this many people just have inherently sociopathic children who can't be reached? No, it's cope. I'm sure that's hard to hear, but it's cope. Find a good family therapist.

Perhaps you should look things up before you post. Hitler's family was normal for the time, and his mother was described as "devoted", unusual for the time. Father died when he was 13, mother when he was about 17. He was a product of society, personality and prejudice, not a lack of discipline or love at home.

There are many more of us who have experienced time with children who were neither neglected nor abused. I'm glad you only know a few kids who are "difficult", and I agree that your description is a combination of neglect and verbal/emotional abuse... however, that's not the norm for difficult kids. What is the norm is doing everything possible, as several PP have said, and coming up short of what would make the child appear to be "normal".

[Anonymous]

My first child was highly sensitive/"explosive" in nature/difficult in every way. My second child was temperamentally even and "easy" to deal with.

I do think I was a great parent but the firstborn was extremely hard for me to raise.

I don't believe I caused the temperament of either child with my parenting style. They came out of the womb that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"My kid is inherently bad" is just cope. Even Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler with better parents. Donald Trump probably wouldn't be this absolutely nightmare if his parents had actually loved him instead of shipping him off to military school or whatever.

No one is a perfect parent but 99.99999999999% of kids I've met will be okay if they get enough of the right kind of love and support. Every total nightmare of a kid I've encountered has had one or both parents who are in some way abusive or neglectful. Sometimes in a way they are unaware of. Like I know a girl who is very rageful and angry and her parents are like "yup, that's just how she is" but then they will turn around and tell her, to her face, that her siblings are just better people than she is. Ummmm. That's crap parenting, no wonder that kid is miserable. But the parents can't even see it because they are frustrated and have written her off and only see their own experience dealing with a tough kid and can't step outside themselves and see what it must be like to be a child whose parents just do not like her. That family could benefit enormously from individual and group counseling but what are you going to say? It all sucks but that kid isn't just broken. She's a person who doesn't feel loved or accepted by her family and is acting out in a somewhat predictable way. It probably feels a lot more obvious from outside that dysfunction.

But yeah, this idea that this many people just have inherently sociopathic children who can't be reached? No, it's cope. I'm sure that's hard to hear, but it's cope. Find a good family therapist.

Perhaps you should look things up before you post. Hitler's family was normal for the time, and his mother was described as "devoted", unusual for the time. Father died when he was 13, mother when he was about 17. He was a product of society, personality and prejudice, not a lack of discipline or love at home.

There are many more of us who have experienced time with children who were neither neglected nor abused. I'm glad you only know a few kids who are "difficult", and I agree that your description is a combination of neglect and verbal/emotional abuse... however, that's not the norm for difficult kids. What is the norm is doing everything possible, as several PP have said, and coming up short of what would make the child appear to be "normal".

Where did the prior post say that difficult children were the result of neglect of abuse? It didn't, though the part where a parent tells a kid to be more like their siblings sounds mean.

It's more that you have to parent the child you have, not the one you wish you had. And deciding your kid is just inherently bad because they need something you aren't giving them is bad parenting. Not necessarily neglect or abuse, just crap parenting.

Now, that doesn't mean parents are always able to give a kid what they need. There are often limitations on resources. Maybe the PP with two high powered parents in demanding jobs, likely living in a major metro area among similar such people, would do better with a slower pace of life and parents in less demanding jobs and an environment that was less competitive. I often thing this about kids I encounter in the DC area who just seem like they are mess, attending hyper-competitive schools and surrounded by people who went to Ivy League colleges and have demanding, important jobs. But is it reasonable to expect a family to totally upend their entire lives because it doesn't suit one kid's personality? Probably not. But you could at least acknowledge that it's not that there is something inherently wrong with your kid, and maybe they are just not suited in temperament for the life they've been born into, and have some empathy.

Also it's insane that you're like "Hitler had a totally normal upbringing, nothing could have been better, and then reveal he lost both his parents as a teen. Yes, this was more common during that time, but that doesn't mean it had no negative impact. Losing a parent early in life is very often a trigger for mental health issues later on, including sometimes personality disorders. Who knows how he might have been different if that had unfolded differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's nature and nurture. I also think sometimes parents are well suited to their kids natural personalities and other times not, and when there is conflict, it can all go wrong.

But I also think that people who are more flexible and adaptable tend to make better parents in general, because this enables them to be the parent their kids need. Then you don't have to just get lucky with kids suited to your personality, because you have the skills to make it work with any kids.

Agree.

I used to think I had the easiest kids on the planet- and I did until the oldest was 15. Then she became the hardest person to parent- the ultimate people pleaser who won’t self advocate. I have no idea where this comes from - I’m so direct it’s off putting to some and I didnt raise a people pleaser. Then I look at my husband’s sister - she’s basically a doormat or wet blanket. I don’t know how to parent this behavior and find myself constantly frustrated with my daughter . I fundamentally cannot understand why she chooses the friends she does or won’t push back against a teacher (or even me) when she knows she’s right. So, yeah, I’m totally ill equipped for this type of kid. My other kids do self advocate and are not this way, which is easier for me as a parent. I do love them the same but find myself more actively managing my older daughter’s anxiety, social skills, perfectionism, and people pleasing tendencies.

Some nature, some nurture, and some is just personality.

[Anonymous]

A people pleaser is “the hardest person to parent”?! Oh please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think easy kids necessarily make for successful adults, so I wouldn't judge too soon. I know I was a kid who challenged authority constantly and was not an easy personality. But I've become a very successful adult who now challenges authority by litigating. As an attorney it's made me quite successful and I enjoy it. With a professional outlet for that aspect of my personality, I have successful relationships with my husband and kids.

I know a lot of easy kids who it became directionless adults when they didn't have anyone telling them what to do anymore. They floundered and have really struggled as adults.

Then maybe they weren’t so easy. My kid is outwardly easy but his problem is that he doesn’t have any persistence or grit. Maybe it’s precisely what makes him easy. However it’s a struggle to make him work hard and be accountable. I can totally see him as directionless when he’s older.

pathetic and sad

What exactly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Genes are very important. Some parents can do everything right and their kid still ends up being a train wreck. This is a little bit more likely to happen to affluent families that adopt because their adopted kids are often genetically average ( or below average) unlike the parents that tend to be genetically above average.

I’d say it’s more likely with most adoptive families because so many kids have been thru one sort of trauma or another or inherited mental challenges from their bio parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Why can’t you “go to many restaurants”? They don’t have to eat there, do they?
I have a friend who has a DD with eating challenges (only a few foods) and she just gives her what she brought for her when they go to restaurants with friends

PP you are responding to and my child is still completely disgusted by the sight of and smell of some foods and will literally vomit from having them in their proximity. They have also had full on panic attacks in challenging restaurants. They can go to many more than they could at 2! But it’s still incredibly stressful for the whole family and not something we take lightly. I am happy for your friend their child’s challenges are much more mild, but please don’t make the mid of thinking that approach works for everyone (and I hate to say it but restaurants start to push back on bringing outside food when the kid looks more like an adult, even if you explain the child’s difficulty in excruciating detail).

Thank you so much for explaining. Apologies for not knowing and coming off as judgmental.
Best of luck to you and the kid!