NYT Headline “Did Women Ruin the Workplace?”

[Anonymous]

The backlash to the current backlash is coming. When that happens, society has real progress (desegregation, social security, etc). I’m looking forward to it because this current state sucks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Patients prefer and have better outcomes with women doctors.
Women led countries do better.
Men who want slaves are unhappy. The rest are happy.

Men and women are not enemies. It’s not a zero sum game.

the worse bosses I ever had were both Indian Women.

constantly micro-managing, over-bearing with little technical knowledge. also, tried to hire relatives and friends, extreme nepotism.

The worst boss I ever had was a Chinese man. He pitted everyone against each other and tried to get us all to commit fraud. Constant explosive yelling and belittling of employees. Best boss was a woman. She was knowledgeable, invested in making everyone better, and could lead teams effectively.

Anecdotes don’t prove anything. Fallacy of composition.

Sounds like you need a WASP male to run things?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

This has nothing to do with the workplace. What you are noticing is that society can no longer depend on women's unpaid labor to function seamlessly. And women- rightfully so- are drained from being SAHM parents bringing in a paycheck. Men are drained from having to do anything besides go to work and come home and play golf on the weekends.

Its not feminism's fault. Its that the US capitalist system basically said BET and refuses to enact or support any structural societal change to support women in the workforce. The "support" for women in the workforce is use your salary to supplement what you would do at home and oh by the way if you choose to have children and be in the workforce make sure you dont vacation or get sick for 4 years so you can accumulate enough leave to recover from childbirth because we give such paltry leave.

You can't have it all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Patients prefer and have better outcomes with women doctors.
Women led countries do better.
Men who want slaves are unhappy. The rest are happy.

Men and women are not enemies. It’s not a zero sum game.

the worse bosses I ever had were both Indian Women.

constantly micro-managing, over-bearing with little technical knowledge. also, tried to hire relatives and friends, extreme nepotism.

The worst boss I ever had was a Chinese man. He pitted everyone against each other and tried to get us all to commit fraud. Constant explosive yelling and belittling of employees. Best boss was a woman. She was knowledgeable, invested in making everyone better, and could lead teams effectively.

Anecdotes don’t prove anything. Fallacy of composition.

Sounds like you need a WASP male to run things?

No. A Chinese woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Is there actually any argument for the opposite?

If your brain just goes to women and not a million other factors that have changed over time, that's a you problem.

As for the workplace, are any of them really better from having HR departments or other such areas birthed by feminism?

Yes. People no longer have to put up with groping, harassment, racist jokes, nude pinups, and other things that don’t belong in a workplace.

because women find it offensive

Cry harder

You're missing the point.

The problem is not that women are less talented than men or even that female modes of interaction are inferior in any objective sense. The problem is that female modes of interaction are not well suited to accomplishing the goals of many major institutions. You can have an academia that is majority female, but it will be (as majority-female departments in today’s universities already are) oriented toward other goals than open debate and the unfettered pursuit of truth simply because the need for group agreement (aand agreeableness as a female trait) doesn't allow for such conflict. And if your academia doesn’t pursue truth, what good is it? If your journalists aren’t prickly individualists who don’t mind alienating people, what good are they? If a business loses its swashbuckling spirit and becomes a feminized, inward-focused bureaucracy, will it not stagnate?

Since women are now the majority in the college system, the majority of MD and JD recent graduates, those fields will all soon be female dominated. As women become the majority, because all of those industries will cease to be able to perform their primary functions. We’ve already seen that, for example, in elementary education, where predominantly female teachers working under female principles and female-majority schoolboards cannot teach schoolchildren how to read, write, or do arithmetic.

As we are observing in real time, female-dominated politics are not compatible with civilization because women have different priorities and perspectives than those required for its construction and maintenance. The episode of Survivor in which the two tribes were divided by the sexes is a very vivid example of this.

Please tell me how male dominated workplaces treat women who display the traits you consider unnatural for them. Tell me how direct, opinionated, argumentative, unvarnished-feedback-giving women are thought of in the workplace, BY MEN.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

To be fair, perhaps the first question to ask is not, "is it all women's fault?"

[Anonymous]

Since women are now the majority in the college system, the majority of MD and JD recent graduates, those fields will all soon be female dominated. As women become the majority, because all of those industries will cease to be able to perform their primary functions. We’ve already seen that, for example, in elementary education, where predominantly female teachers working under female principles and female-majority schoolboards cannot teach schoolchildren how to read, write, or do arithmetic.

As a female physician, please just stop. We are routinely cleaning up after our arrogant male colleagues who can't get out of their own way, routinely get patient complaints, and have bad outcomes. This doesn't include the 4 male physicians removed from faculty at our local DMV trauma center for sexually harassing female nurses, all in the last 3 years:

"Older adults admitted to the hospital fare better if under the care of a female physician rather than a male physician. More specifically, the patients in this study were less likely to end up back in the hospital, or die, in the 30 days after discharge if cared for by female physicians than similar patients cared for by male physicians."

- Comparison of Hospital Mortality and Readmission Rates for Medicare Patients Treated by Male vs Female Physicians

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2593255#google_vignette

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The backlash to the current backlash is coming. When that happens, society has real progress (desegregation, social security, etc). I’m looking forward to it because this current state sucks!

[phone]. Our whole structure of lifestyle leaves so much to be desired. I think it was a great system for a very long time but we stopped evolving, modifying and changing. We need to change with the times and at this point, we almost need to almost reinvent the wheel on some stuff aka healthcare!

[Anonymous]

This has nothing to do with the workplace. What you are noticing is that society can no longer depend on women's unpaid labor to function seamlessly. And women- rightfully so- are drained from being SAHM parents bringing in a paycheck. Men are drained from having to do anything besides go to work and come home and play golf on the weekends.

Its not feminism's fault. Its that the US capitalist system basically said BET and refuses to enact or support any structural societal change to support women in the workforce. The "support" for women in the workforce is use your salary to supplement what you would do at home and oh by the way if you choose to have children and be in the workforce make sure you dont vacation or get sick for 4 years so you can accumulate enough leave to recover from childbirth because we give such paltry leave.

This all day.

[Anonymous]

For how long one gender can keep other gender at second class status when it comes to power and finances?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Since women are now the majority in the college system, the majority of MD and JD recent graduates, those fields will all soon be female dominated. As women become the majority, because all of those industries will cease to be able to perform their primary functions. We’ve already seen that, for example, in elementary education, where predominantly female teachers working under female principles and female-majority schoolboards cannot teach schoolchildren how to read, write, or do arithmetic.

As a female physician, please just stop. We are routinely cleaning up after our arrogant male colleagues who can't get out of their own way, routinely get patient complaints, and have bad outcomes. This doesn't include the 4 male physicians removed from faculty at our local DMV trauma center for sexually harassing female nurses, all in the last 3 years:

"Older adults admitted to the hospital fare better if under the care of a female physician rather than a male physician. More specifically, the patients in this study were less likely to end up back in the hospital, or die, in the 30 days after discharge if cared for by female physicians than similar patients cared for by male physicians."

- Comparison of Hospital Mortality and Readmission Rates for Medicare Patients Treated by Male vs Female Physicians

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2593255#google_vignette

As a patient that pays attention, and one that works with physicians every day, it’s obvious to see. I am a male and I refuse to see male doctors if I can help it. I get way better personalized care this way.

[Anonymous]

We went from one extreme to another. Previously working outside home was considered a taboo, now traditional set up is a looked down upon.

What every couple need is finding what would work for them during which stage of life, not every couple can function well as a traditional couple or a modern couple, as long as their set up works for them, it should be okay with others.

Also working women should get free childcare and reasonable parental leave while SAHM should get free retirement so both ways are protected options.

[Anonymous]

If healthcare, childcare and eldercare become free, every family would benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Is there actually any argument for the opposite?

If your brain just goes to women and not a million other factors that have changed over time, that's a you problem.

As for the workplace, are any of them really better from having HR departments or other such areas birthed by feminism?

Yes. People no longer have to put up with groping, harassment, racist jokes, nude pinups, and other things that don’t belong in a workplace.

because women find it offensive

Cry harder

You're missing the point.

The problem is not that women are less talented than men or even that female modes of interaction are inferior in any objective sense. The problem is that female modes of interaction are not well suited to accomplishing the goals of many major institutions. You can have an academia that is majority female, but it will be (as majority-female departments in today’s universities already are) oriented toward other goals than open debate and the unfettered pursuit of truth simply because the need for group agreement (aand agreeableness as a female trait) doesn't allow for such conflict. And if your academia doesn’t pursue truth, what good is it? If your journalists aren’t prickly individualists who don’t mind alienating people, what good are they? If a business loses its swashbuckling spirit and becomes a feminized, inward-focused bureaucracy, will it not stagnate?

Since women are now the majority in the college system, the majority of MD and JD recent graduates, those fields will all soon be female dominated. As women become the majority, because all of those industries will cease to be able to perform their primary functions. We’ve already seen that, for example, in elementary education, where predominantly female teachers working under female principles and female-majority schoolboards cannot teach schoolchildren how to read, write, or do arithmetic.

As we are observing in real time, female-dominated politics are not compatible with civilization because women have different priorities and perspectives than those required for its construction and maintenance. The episode of Survivor in which the two tribes were divided by the sexes is a very vivid example of this.

Please tell me how male dominated workplaces treat women who display the traits you consider unnatural for them. Tell me how direct, opinionated, argumentative, unvarnished-feedback-giving women are thought of in the workplace, BY MEN.

This. If women are perceived as gossiping and indirect, that’s because those are survival tactics that women have had to adopt to navigate toxic spaces (which, by the way, were toxic long before women arrived). Men have the luxury of not needing a whisper network to warn each other who/what to avoid. Men don’t get called shrill and unlikeable when they speak directly. Women are expected to sugarcoat their speech and be accommodating. When they don’t, they’re punished for not being feminine enough. When they do, they’re “ruining the workplace” by being too feminine.

The conclusion Andrews and Sergeant would like you to reach is that there is no correct and non-disruptive way to be a woman in the workplace, therefore for the sake of peace we need to return to a time when there were no women in workplaces. Which never existed, because women have been there all along, in fields and factories and schools and hospitals.

(Ironic that Helen Andrews and Leah Sergeant both attended Yale, an institution they would have been barred from if not for feminism.)

[Anonymous]

But men gossip! They gossip all the time! It's just called male bonding or golf or Friday night drinks or whatever. But men absolutely do gossip.

And backstabbing? Men don't backstab? Come on! Wake up! It's demonstrably untrue that every male on male conflict is overt.