NYT Headline “Did Women Ruin the Workplace?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

I think the answer is that men should do more. I mean, people can decide what’s best for them, but if you have two people working then you can’t rely on one of them for most other tasks, too.

It's not even just the tasks. It's all the planning and organizing that they somehow can't see and do not help with. My husband and I split most chores evenly. For example, we switch off weeks of meal planning and cooking meals. So it's split 50:50, and he is quite proud of himself for this. But he seems to think a magical elf manages the pantry and restocks to cooking oil and seasonings, who cleans out the fridge and scrubs the shelves, who wipes down the counters and mops the floor, etc. But if you ask him, he does half the work of feeding our family.

Stop patting yourself on the back. He probably does things that you don't even notice or register either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

I am happy, single woman, and working, with a home.

That's good. I am happy, married, and working, with a home. I also don't think that American feminism has been utterly perfect in advancing women's needs.

There is only so much "feminism" can do. It is not going to negate the two income trap which has caused the price of everything to rise since it assumed many households have two people working, and feminism will not force men to do what they don't want to do in the home.

This is exactly correct. Feminism has made our GDP rise dramatically, but it also has meant that women *must* work in order for their households to stay afloat financially.

And, on the count of household chores- people forget that the promise that feminism made was that modern household appliances would reduce work, and that the "extra income" generated from women working would mean that families could hire help. It hasn't panned out this way because of economics. So needing men to take on more household work-- that was never in the original plan. It's a fairly recent realization that women are working as much as men, then coming home and working another shift. And in most cases, women will not admit this is happening in their own homes, even though studies on this are very clear that women do dramatically more household work.

[Anonymous]

Yes. Is there actually any argument for the opposite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

You’re right! Women would be so much happier without their own money and bank accounts (which they got in 1974). (Sarcasm clearly)

Men are unhappy because they must function as adults without a servant at home to wait on them. They also feel this way about slavery, which is why white supremacy is openly discussed and platformed.

Women are unhappy because there is a serious backlash going on! Although there are a collection of lazy dumb women who are ok with trad wife life and being subservient. Most are not.

There are a lot of ways to do feminism. Europe also embraced feminism, but have had very different outcomes than us. They didn't emphasize work as much as American feminism, for example, and so women are largely at home with babies and then work when they get older. Part time work is more prevalant. Yet American feminists would call this, as you do, "lazy dumb women who are okay with trad wife life." I'll just point out that their levels of happiness are much higher than American women.

You are completely brainwashed into believing that modern American feminists are the only people who understand women and the needs of women.

You really don’t know *anything* about me as a person based on my post.

I get that it is really popular right now under this current administration to criticize American women in general and American feminists in particular. As I posted above, there is a very bad backlash going on for women and minorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

You’re right! Women would be so much happier without their own money and bank accounts (which they got in 1974). (Sarcasm clearly)

Men are unhappy because they must function as adults without a servant at home to wait on them. They also feel this way about slavery, which is why white supremacy is openly discussed and platformed.

Women are unhappy because there is a serious backlash going on! Although there are a collection of lazy dumb women who are ok with trad wife life and being subservient. Most are not.

There are a lot of ways to do feminism. Europe also embraced feminism, but have had very different outcomes than us. They didn't emphasize work as much as American feminism, for example, and so women are largely at home with babies and then work when they get older. Part time work is more prevalant. Yet American feminists would call this, as you do, "lazy dumb women who are okay with trad wife life." I'll just point out that their levels of happiness are much higher than American women.

You are completely brainwashed into believing that modern American feminists are the only people who understand women and the needs of women.

You really don’t know *anything* about me as a person based on my post.

I get that it is really popular right now under this current administration to criticize American women in general and American feminists in particular. As I posted above, there is a very bad backlash going on for women and minorities.

I think that calling women who do not work "lazy, dumb women" does give me some insight into your thinking.

Where you are stumbling is that you think that criticism of feminism is anti-woman. It's not. I think people here are making very pro-women arguments about whether current feminist goals are actually aligned with women's interests. People do notice things, and will comment on them, no matter how hard people try to shut down thought and conversation by throwing around names like "trad wife."

[Anonymous]

There are a million and one changes that have happened in the last 50 years but we just single out women in the workplace as the downfall of society?

Typical.

[Anonymous]

There is definitely a backlash against women. And this follows the targeting of other minorities. And the blaming of minority groups for all of societal problems.

And we know from the past, that targeting minorities is a diversion from real problems. And in the US many problems have to do with the middle class disappearing and rising income inequality. We have an affordability problem.

And it’s not because of women, or whatever bogey man they can come up with. It’s corruption in financial markets, insider trading, and a government catering to a billionaire class. All leading to squeezing out every damn dime of profit for a smaller and smaller group who profit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Is there actually any argument for the opposite?

If your brain just goes to women and not a million other factors that have changed over time, that's a you problem.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the article, but the headline was Did Women Ruin the Workplace, not Are Women Happy? Or Are Women Doing More Than Their Fair Share? Or Is Feminism Good for Women? No, the article's first headline is Did Women Ruin the WORKPLACE?

So in other words, did we ruin it for men, not did we ruin for it ourselves? And for that, the NYT can GFTs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article, but the headline was Did Women Ruin the Workplace, not Are Women Happy? Or Are Women Doing More Than Their Fair Share? Or Is Feminism Good for Women? No, the article's first headline is Did Women Ruin the WORKPLACE?

So in other words, did we ruin it for men, not did we ruin for it ourselves? And for that, the NYT can GFTs.

Those questions are not unrelated.

[Anonymous]

I recently canceled them because they kept calling the ACA "Obamacare" even in article titles and I thought their standards were better than that. This just adds reinforcement that this was right decision, plus have to save money in this crappy economy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

You’re right! Women would be so much happier without their own money and bank accounts (which they got in 1974). (Sarcasm clearly)

Men are unhappy because they must function as adults without a servant at home to wait on them. They also feel this way about slavery, which is why white supremacy is openly discussed and platformed.

Women are unhappy because there is a serious backlash going on! Although there are a collection of lazy dumb women who are ok with trad wife life and being subservient. Most are not.

There are a lot of ways to do feminism. Europe also embraced feminism, but have had very different outcomes than us. They didn't emphasize work as much as American feminism, for example, and so women are largely at home with babies and then work when they get older. Part time work is more prevalant. Yet American feminists would call this, as you do, "lazy dumb women who are okay with trad wife life." I'll just point out that their levels of happiness are much higher than American women.

You are completely brainwashed into believing that modern American feminists are the only people who understand women and the needs of women.

Many European countries also have a social safety net for women, unlike the US. The male politicians in the Scandinavian countries unlike American ones actually voted for things like universal healthcare, subsidized childcare, maternal post-partum care, and free university education. If the US could guarantee those things, American women wouldn't be so f'd if they didn't have full-time employment. The problem is not women who embrace liberal feminism, the problem is the men who think they are absolved of responsibility if women work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

I think the answer is that men should do more. I mean, people can decide what’s best for them, but if you have two people working then you can’t rely on one of them for most other tasks, too.

It's not even just the tasks. It's all the planning and organizing that they somehow can't see and do not help with. My husband and I split most chores evenly. For example, we switch off weeks of meal planning and cooking meals. So it's split 50:50, and he is quite proud of himself for this. But he seems to think a magical elf manages the pantry and restocks to cooking oil and seasonings, who cleans out the fridge and scrubs the shelves, who wipes down the counters and mops the floor, etc. But if you ask him, he does half the work of feeding our family.

It's also the weaponized incompetence, or in the case of my husband the weaponized "not caring." I'll give an example. When we are dividing up who will handle which tasks, my husband will simply declare a lot of tasks that I care about as "unnecessary." A small child's basic (not over the top) birthday party, holiday cards, thank you notes, contributing to the class gift for the teacher, etc. If I list these tasks as things that are on my plate, he will say "so just don't do those things." Like he has magically solved "my problem" for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

I think the answer is that men should do more. I mean, people can decide what’s best for them, but if you have two people working then you can’t rely on one of them for most other tasks, too.

It's not even just the tasks. It's all the planning and organizing that they somehow can't see and do not help with. My husband and I split most chores evenly. For example, we switch off weeks of meal planning and cooking meals. So it's split 50:50, and he is quite proud of himself for this. But he seems to think a magical elf manages the pantry and restocks to cooking oil and seasonings, who cleans out the fridge and scrubs the shelves, who wipes down the counters and mops the floor, etc. But if you ask him, he does half the work of feeding our family.

It's also the weaponized incompetence, or in the case of my husband the weaponized "not caring." I'll give an example. When we are dividing up who will handle which tasks, my husband will simply declare a lot of tasks that I care about as "unnecessary." A small child's basic (not over the top) birthday party, holiday cards, thank you notes, contributing to the class gift for the teacher, etc. If I list these tasks as things that are on my plate, he will say "so just don't do those things." Like he has magically solved "my problem" for me.

So your standards and the things you think "matter" get to dictate? Everything is weaponized these days...

If you're tired and overworked, stop doing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the article. Obviously, women should be treated as equals, etc, but I think it is worth asking questions about whether many of feminism's achievements have actually improved things for women. Arguably, women now have to do everything a man has to do, in addition to everything that women do, and it doesn't seem like this is a good deal. Men are miserable, women report the lowest levels of happiness in decades, and yet we can't question whether this is all working for us.

You’re right! Women would be so much happier without their own money and bank accounts (which they got in 1974). (Sarcasm clearly)

Men are unhappy because they must function as adults without a servant at home to wait on them. They also feel this way about slavery, which is why white supremacy is openly discussed and platformed.

Women are unhappy because there is a serious backlash going on! Although there are a collection of lazy dumb women who are ok with trad wife life and being subservient. Most are not.

There are a lot of ways to do feminism. Europe also embraced feminism, but have had very different outcomes than us. They didn't emphasize work as much as American feminism, for example, and so women are largely at home with babies and then work when they get older. Part time work is more prevalant. Yet American feminists would call this, as you do, "lazy dumb women who are okay with trad wife life." I'll just point out that their levels of happiness are much higher than American women.

You are completely brainwashed into believing that modern American feminists are the only people who understand women and the needs of women.

Many European countries also have a social safety net for women, unlike the US. The male politicians in the Scandinavian countries unlike American ones actually voted for things like universal healthcare, subsidized childcare, maternal post-partum care, and free university education. If the US could guarantee those things, American women wouldn't be so f'd if they didn't have full-time employment. The problem is not women who embrace liberal feminism, the problem is the men who think they are absolved of responsibility if women work.

+1

Also this is a fruitless, pointless article. We are not going to go back and restrict women from the workplace (right Republicans? Right???)

The point is freedom to choose what works best for each person or family. Going to work literally pulled me out of post partum depression, so much so that I actually remember the palpable feeling relief of my first day back, having that space that was still my own. And now I am a happy, working mother to a wonderful, happy 11 year old kid.