American Women Are Giving Up on Marriage (Wall Street Journal)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t need men to survive like they did in the past. We have our own money, our own homes, and our own children. Who needs a man anymore?

Women who want a loving companion and a family for their children.

Agree, but that assumes a man who is a loving companion and good parent. A man who ticks those boxes will do well.

And attractive and smart women are mostly able to find these men. The biggest hurdle I believe is that you have to find them early. You don't have to marry or have kids early, but I do think by age 25 or so most of the good men are in serious dating relationships. Obviously there are exceptions - good men who for whatever reason didn't want to be committed earlier - but the amount of good ones still unattached shrinks drastically as the years go on.

Why is there a time limit on being a loving companion and good parent? Those are choices any man could make at any time. If they are choosing otherwise, they won't do well in the dating market and unattached women will do their own thing re: kids. But it's a choice those men are making.

I think PP was open to the possibility of men choosing at any point to be loving companion and good parent. But they see evidence on the ground that indicates that the earlier you look for a relationship, the higher your odds of finding men who either know they want that choice or are open to it. Over time they either get paired off, or they get set in their ways and less and less able to easily leave the single life.

David Brooks wrote a piece about how people (men and women) might be focusing too much early on on their careers, and missing out on the time when they are most likely to find someone -- and for someone to find them. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/opinion/marriage-happiness-career.html ("To Be Happy, Marriage Matters More Than Career").

"When I’m around young adults, I like to ask them how they are thinking about the big commitments in their lives: what career to go into, where to live, whom to marry. Most of them have thought a lot about their career plans. But my impression is that many have not thought a lot about how marriage will fit into their lives."

Do you find no irony here? What do you think his ex-wife might add to the discussion?

Seriously. David Brooks is gross. It’s surprising that so many people still read his musings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t need men to survive like they did in the past. We have our own money, our own homes, and our own children. Who needs a man anymore?

Women who want a loving companion and a family for their children.

Agree, but that assumes a man who is a loving companion and good parent. A man who ticks those boxes will do well.

And attractive and smart women are mostly able to find these men. The biggest hurdle I believe is that you have to find them early. You don't have to marry or have kids early, but I do think by age 25 or so most of the good men are in serious dating relationships. Obviously there are exceptions - good men who for whatever reason didn't want to be committed earlier - but the amount of good ones still unattached shrinks drastically as the years go on.

Yes ladies, if you are only pretty enough, you can find a perfect man. Project 2025 has spoken, keep sweet and keep pretty for those men!

Or gain 100lbs and drive a Subaru.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women are not buying into a system that hates them and sets them up to fail.

+1million.

And the pundits can crunch as much data and throw all the statistics at this that they want but until men address this (below) - women aren't going to be interested.

"Many of the men Katie met, she said, either seemed turned off by her ambition or weren’t career-oriented enough for her. She felt discouraged by just how many of her male friends similarly said they expect their future wives to prioritize their families over their jobs."

"Jones, who identifies as politically moderate, thinks couples with kids should split household and child care responsibilities equally. She was surprised by just how few of the men she has encountered in D.C. share this view."

"[S]he broke up with her boyfriend, with whom she shares a 5-year-old son, over a year ago because she was tired of doing most of the child care, cooking and scheduling while also earning almost double her boyfriend’s salary."

I do worry about the backlash against women, which is already well underway. Men aren't going to want to change. They are going to want to force women back into dependency.

That is precisely what we're starting to see happen with this administration.

Can you give a factual example?

[Anonymous]

If it is all the mans fault why is the divorce rate so high among lesbian marriages?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those women are not settling for men who are not compatible, full partners. Nothing wrong with that. It sounds like if any of them met the right guy, they'd consider marriage.

But, doesn't that mean men are giving up too? The population of the U.S. is 50.5% female. If they aren't getting married, neither are men. Or is something going wrong with a large portion of the male population making them incompatible marriage partners?

Both genders are becoming increasingly unattractive to the other. You have more men growing up to be directionless incel losers, you have more women becoming fat and having delusional standards.

Politics is more extreme now so conservative men and liberal women are finding decreased ability to find common ground. Economically men are losing their appeal, women need them less and they have less to offer in the first place. Socially, there are fewer places to meet in person so we see increased use of online dating which is a very harsh environment and fosters the idea that everyone you meet is disposable, top 5% of men rake it in while bottom 95% get next to nothing.

I agree with this. Especially the part about the number of young men that are totally undate-able and women with delusional standards. The extreme politics is also making the situation worse. I think the rabid MAGA world is worse, but the super progressive left isn't much better. Horseshoe theory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t need men to survive like they did in the past. We have our own money, our own homes, and our own children. Who needs a man anymore?

you do realize that many of these children you’re talking about will grow up to be men one day? Way to lay the groundwork for them having zero self-esteem and hating women right back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t need men to survive like they did in the past. We have our own money, our own homes, and our own children. Who needs a man anymore?

Women who want a loving companion and a family for their children.

Agree, but that assumes a man who is a loving companion and good parent. A man who ticks those boxes will do well.

And attractive and smart women are mostly able to find these men. The biggest hurdle I believe is that you have to find them early. You don't have to marry or have kids early, but I do think by age 25 or so most of the good men are in serious dating relationships. Obviously there are exceptions - good men who for whatever reason didn't want to be committed earlier - but the amount of good ones still unattached shrinks drastically as the years go on.

Yes ladies, if you are only pretty enough, you can find a perfect man. Project 2025 has spoken, keep sweet and keep pretty for those men!

Or gain 100lbs and drive a Subaru.

I did this AND got married. To a man. Not quite 100. But I have the man, resentment about the housework, and the kid all in the Subaru!

My main thing as far as social policy is I want to support women getting married or not getting married, and having children or not, as they like. The most terrifying part of right wing America is the idea that god and/or the government are entitled to use women’s wombs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those women are not settling for men who are not compatible, full partners. Nothing wrong with that. It sounds like if any of them met the right guy, they'd consider marriage.

But, doesn't that mean men are giving up too? The population of the U.S. is 50.5% female. If they aren't getting married, neither are men. Or is something going wrong with a large portion of the male population making them incompatible marriage partners?

Both genders are becoming increasingly unattractive to the other. You have more men growing up to be directionless incel losers, you have more women becoming fat and having delusional standards.

Politics is more extreme now so conservative men and liberal women are finding decreased ability to find common ground. Economically men are losing their appeal, women need them less and they have less to offer in the first place. Socially, there are fewer places to meet in person so we see increased use of online dating which is a very harsh environment and fosters the idea that everyone you meet is disposable, top 5% of men rake it in while bottom 95% get next to nothing.

Obesity rates by gender:
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity
Statistics prove you wrong - more men than women are overweight/obese.

[Anonymous]

obesity rate is neck and neck

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t need men to survive like they did in the past. We have our own money, our own homes, and our own children. Who needs a man anymore?

Women who want a loving companion and a family for their children.

Agree, but that assumes a man who is a loving companion and good parent. A man who ticks those boxes will do well.

And attractive and smart women are mostly able to find these men. The biggest hurdle I believe is that you have to find them early. You don't have to marry or have kids early, but I do think by age 25 or so most of the good men are in serious dating relationships. Obviously there are exceptions - good men who for whatever reason didn't want to be committed earlier - but the amount of good ones still unattached shrinks drastically as the years go on.

Yes ladies, if you are only pretty enough, you can find a perfect man. Project 2025 has spoken, keep sweet and keep pretty for those men!

Or gain 100lbs and drive a Subaru.

I did this AND got married. To a man. Not quite 100. But I have the man, resentment about the housework, and the kid all in the Subaru!

My main thing as far as social policy is I want to support women getting married or not getting married, and having children or not, as they like. The most terrifying part of right wing America is the idea that god and/or the government are entitled to use women’s wombs.

Can you provide an example of right wing wanting to use women’s wombs? Most republicans support abortion with parameters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t need men to survive like they did in the past. We have our own money, our own homes, and our own children. Who needs a man anymore?

Women who want a loving companion and a family for their children.

Agree, but that assumes a man who is a loving companion and good parent. A man who ticks those boxes will do well.

And attractive and smart women are mostly able to find these men. The biggest hurdle I believe is that you have to find them early. You don't have to marry or have kids early, but I do think by age 25 or so most of the good men are in serious dating relationships. Obviously there are exceptions - good men who for whatever reason didn't want to be committed earlier - but the amount of good ones still unattached shrinks drastically as the years go on.

Yes ladies, if you are only pretty enough, you can find a perfect man. Project 2025 has spoken, keep sweet and keep pretty for those men!

Or gain 100lbs and drive a Subaru.

I did this AND got married. To a man. Not quite 100. But I have the man, resentment about the housework, and the kid all in the Subaru!

My main thing as far as social policy is I want to support women getting married or not getting married, and having children or not, as they like. The most terrifying part of right wing America is the idea that god and/or the government are entitled to use women’s wombs.

I don’t think you can support it all. Supporting one necessarily burdens the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s interesting because my understanding is that the sociological data shows that married parents have high levels of happiness. Having a stable family is an overall benefit to the individuals involved and society.

Certain demographic groups are more successful in forming and maintaining families including the college educated professional class, Asian Americans, and more religious people.

We talk about this issue with our teen. Alongside college and career prep, we want him to know the importance of family and the value of intentionally prioritizing a good marriage. It doesn’t just magically happen. Effort is both required and rewarded.

Nope - single women are happiest, followed by married men. I forget whether single men or married women are least happy.

We talk with our teen DD about choosing a partner who shares your values and will pull their weight.

You're incorrect. Data show married people are happier--both men and women.
From Stack, Steven, and J. Ross Eshleman. "Marital status and happiness: A 17-nation study." Journal of Marriage and the Family (1998): 527-536:
"Research on marital status and happiness has
tended to be restricted to the U.S. We extend the
analysis to a set of 17 industrialized nations with
diverse social and institutional frameworks. Con-
trolling for sociodemographic variables, we found
that married persons have a significantly higher
level of happiness than persons who are not mar-
ried."

1998?? It's a different world now.

Here's more recent data from 2022 General Social Survey: https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey
"The GSS shows that a combination of marriage and parenthood is linked to the biggest happiness dividends for women. Among married women with children between the ages of 18 and 55, 40% reported they are “very happy,” compared to 25% of married childless women, and just 22% of unmarried childless women.

Nevertheless, it is important to note that unmarried mothers are the least likely to be very happy: with just 17% of them indicating they are very happy. "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s interesting because my understanding is that the sociological data shows that married parents have high levels of happiness. Having a stable family is an overall benefit to the individuals involved and society.

Certain demographic groups are more successful in forming and maintaining families including the college educated professional class, Asian Americans, and more religious people.

We talk about this issue with our teen. Alongside college and career prep, we want him to know the importance of family and the value of intentionally prioritizing a good marriage. It doesn’t just magically happen. Effort is both required and rewarded.

Nope - single women are happiest, followed by married men. I forget whether single men or married women are least happy.

We talk with our teen DD about choosing a partner who shares your values and will pull their weight.

You're incorrect. Data show married people are happier--both men and women.
From Stack, Steven, and J. Ross Eshleman. "Marital status and happiness: A 17-nation study." Journal of Marriage and the Family (1998): 527-536:
"Research on marital status and happiness has
tended to be restricted to the U.S. We extend the
analysis to a set of 17 industrialized nations with
diverse social and institutional frameworks. Con-
trolling for sociodemographic variables, we found
that married persons have a significantly higher
level of happiness than persons who are not mar-
ried."

1998?? It's a different world now.

Here's more recent data from 2022 General Social Survey: https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey
"The GSS shows that a combination of marriage and parenthood is linked to the biggest happiness dividends for women. Among married women with children between the ages of 18 and 55, 40% reported they are “very happy,” compared to 25% of married childless women, and just 22% of unmarried childless women.

Nevertheless, it is important to note that unmarried mothers are the least likely to be very happy: with just 17% of them indicating they are very happy. "

Can we please be serious. This is not an actual research, this is propaganda. I’m going to read research studies by actual scientists, not mouth breathing morons who are homeschooled and molested by their family members.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s interesting because my understanding is that the sociological data shows that married parents have high levels of happiness. Having a stable family is an overall benefit to the individuals involved and society.

Certain demographic groups are more successful in forming and maintaining families including the college educated professional class, Asian Americans, and more religious people.

We talk about this issue with our teen. Alongside college and career prep, we want him to know the importance of family and the value of intentionally prioritizing a good marriage. It doesn’t just magically happen. Effort is both required and rewarded.

Nope - single women are happiest, followed by married men. I forget whether single men or married women are least happy.

We talk with our teen DD about choosing a partner who shares your values and will pull their weight.

You're incorrect. Data show married people are happier--both men and women.
From Stack, Steven, and J. Ross Eshleman. "Marital status and happiness: A 17-nation study." Journal of Marriage and the Family (1998): 527-536:
"Research on marital status and happiness has
tended to be restricted to the U.S. We extend the
analysis to a set of 17 industrialized nations with
diverse social and institutional frameworks. Con-
trolling for sociodemographic variables, we found
that married persons have a significantly higher
level of happiness than persons who are not mar-
ried."

1998?? It's a different world now.

Here's more recent data from 2022 General Social Survey: https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey
"The GSS shows that a combination of marriage and parenthood is linked to the biggest happiness dividends for women. Among married women with children between the ages of 18 and 55, 40% reported they are “very happy,” compared to 25% of married childless women, and just 22% of unmarried childless women.

Nevertheless, it is important to note that unmarried mothers are the least likely to be very happy: with just 17% of them indicating they are very happy. "

Can we please be serious. This is not an actual research, this is propaganda. I’m going to read research studies by actual scientists, not mouth breathing morons who are homeschooled and molested by their family members.

The source is the well-respected General Social Survey. The Institute for Family Studies is "pro-family" but that doesn't mean they're lying. Anyway here is another study published in the Journal of Mental Health and Clinincal Psychology. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7304555/

Their conclusion "Overall, high education, being employed, and being married were associated with better Self Reported Health and happiness." This applies for men and women. They also included interactions and the odds ratio for women who were married was 1.14. In laymen's terms " the effect of marital status [on happiness] is larger for women." Parentheses mine.

It is pretty well established in the happiness literature that married people are happier. There is little to no debate about this among people who study this topic.

There is some debate as to whether happier people are more likely to marry/stay married as opposed to marriage causing the happiness. The evidence suggests both are in play.

[Anonymous]

Being an American wife and mother is a form of modern slavery. Our economy would collapse if women were actually compensated for the work they do. Not so many women want to sign up for that.