State report says 7 Virginia universities should be monitored as enrollment cliff approaches

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone! OP is referring is to an OPINION piecd not a new article. Big difference

No, it's not an opinion piece. It's a news article that is citing information from a report published by JOINT LEGISLATIVE AUDIT
AND REVIEW COMMISSION , "In 2023, the Joint Legislative Audit and Review Commission (JLARC) directed staff to review public four-year
higher education institutions. This report addresses institutional viability and academic program offerings."

Here is the link to the report itself:
https://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt593.pdf

Thank you for posting a link to the actual report.

I suggest posters read the Agency responses in Appendix 6 (page 59 of 94).

[Anonymous]

^^ Appendix C

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone! OP is referring is to an OPINION piecd not a new article. Big difference

No, it's not an opinion piece. It's a news article that is citing information from a report published by JOINT LEGISLATIVE AUDIT
AND REVIEW COMMISSION , "In 2023, the Joint Legislative Audit and Review Commission (JLARC) directed staff to review public four-year
higher education institutions. This report addresses institutional viability and academic program offerings."

Here is the link to the report itself:
https://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt593.pdf

Thank you for posting a link to the actual report.

I suggest posters read the Agency responses in Appendix 6 (page 59 of 94).

VA isn't afraid to blatantly lie:
"Since taking office, Governor Youngkin has championed significant increases in funding for our
public schools"

Fcker tried to cut school budgets before the Ds in the General Assembly intervened.

[Anonymous]

The enrollment cliff is real and I don't think funding institutions to have ever fewer students is the right answer. If schools really aren't turning things around on their own then maybe the state should let them, or even encourage them, to close.

But if a school is demonstrating interesting approaches to handling the demographic cliff then yes, funnel some more money their way and see what happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Maybe they had some extra per pupil in recent years but that doesn’t cover the huge gap.

And VSU is 1/6th the size of VT. Many expenses aren’t linear.

The Federal data behind this claim is wrong. It is from a database called IPEDS, which is data provided by the institutions, but not checked and often entered incorrectly or inconsistently, leading to errors.

The Virginia budget and its line items are public record, including those for Virginia State and Virginia Tech general fund appropriations, which is what is relevant here. The number of Full Time Equivalent students is tracked by the State Council on Higher Education. As you can see this data is combined in a report on the SCHEV website. You can see from the online report for the budget years 2009-2010 to 2022-2023, the state appropriated $150,058 per in-state FTE for Virginia State vs. $100,867 for Virginia Tech.

https://research.schev.edu/rdPage.aspx?finance&rdReport=finance.FP01_Report

While there are some issues with IPEDS, nothing indicates that the federal data is wrong.

Choosing to focus on one line item in recent years doesn’t tell the whole story. Facilities funding. Matching for USDA funding. Adjusting for the Pell status or tuition levels. When you look at the bigger picture, VSU has been historically underfunded, as many HBCUs have been.

It’s great that the state has started to invest in facilities recently. Given how far behind they are hopefully VA continues to address the inequality.

The General Fund appropriation is the operating money coming from the state. It is a line in the state budget, not in IPEDS, and is the appropriate way answer the simple question of which school is receiving more funding per student from the state.

I am not saying it is that simple and there are no other questions and issues. I am fully aware that Virginia State has complex challenges. This may in part be due to historical funding, but there are likely other factors in play that should be considered. The issue in the financial comparison with Virginia Tech is that Virginia Tech has much higher capacity to get revenue from sources other than the state (tuition net of financial aid, research, private funds) than Virginia State. The budget shows that the state funds some schools with roles and requirements that require additional support (Norfolk State, Virginia State, UVA Wise) at a higher level than average. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate question as to whether the state should fund more or make other changes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Radford was part of Tech for a while

ODU was part of W&M

I think ODU is underrated, really, and Radford is a nice little campus.

Why did the state let the top 3 grow so much? It seems pretty obvious that growing those schools by a lot hurts the smaller schools.

It's stupid that public schools based in one area of the state are allowed to cannibalize public schools in other parts of the state. If there's so much demand, then either fund the existing schools to up their level or create another school which will probably be more beneficial (profitable??) than these haphazardly placed satellite campuses. It also demonstrates that the current state model of VA publics is a failure.

+1 those extra kids at UVa need to go get an education at a worse school, otherwise the incompetent faculty and inept administration at those institutions might have to be laid off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The naming convention of VA publics is dumb and counter to what other states do to create a brand. Both public and private college options are also pretty pathetic in terms of selectivity and options. The schools generally are in armpit areas of the state compared to other states that place their schools in cities or have a well established college town. The schools should basically be as cheap or cheaper than other states because of these failings. A flagship in another state will have more brand recognition even if they are (at least of) equal rigor than any of the respective state schools in VA they are ranked closely with, including UVA and Tech. The fact that, all other things being equal, almost every high performing kid in VA will choose to go to an out-of-state school if given the chance is damning.

So much opinion, so little fact.

So you haven't lived out of state. (We've live in several real states with real colleges.) And you don't know any smart kids? (We know several dozen high performers from different states.) Yours is a typical provincial, townie response from people that don't understand that these are the facts. There're no Disneyland ride lines of out-of-staters trying to get into any Virginia school, public or private, as there are for many, many schools in numerous other states. At least MD has JHU and DC has Georgetown.

This isn't true at all. A lot of out-of-staters want to get into UVA and W&M. And yes, I have lived in several states other than VA. VA has better in-state colleges than any of them. I am actually here in VA because I was once an out-of-stater who came here to attend an in-state school and then stayed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Radford was part of Tech for a while

ODU was part of W&M

I think ODU is underrated, really, and Radford is a nice little campus.

Why did the state let the top 3 grow so much? It seems pretty obvious that growing those schools by a lot hurts the smaller schools.

It's stupid that public schools based in one area of the state are allowed to cannibalize public schools in other parts of the state. If there's so much demand, then either fund the existing schools to up their level or create another school which will probably be more beneficial (profitable??) than these haphazardly placed satellite campuses. It also demonstrates that the current state model of VA publics is a failure.

It wouldn't be discussed if some public schools weren't failures. When a school is bleeding students, something needs to change and the answer isn't forcing students to go to a school they have no interest in attending just to please administrators and faculty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Radford was part of Tech for a while

ODU was part of W&M

I think ODU is underrated, really, and Radford is a nice little campus.

Why did the state let the top 3 grow so much? It seems pretty obvious that growing those schools by a lot hurts the smaller schools.

It's stupid that public schools based in one area of the state are allowed to cannibalize public schools in other parts of the state. If there's so much demand, then either fund the existing schools to up their level or create another school which will probably be more beneficial (profitable??) than these haphazardly placed satellite campuses. It also demonstrates that the current state model of VA publics is a failure.

It wouldn't be discussed if some public schools weren't failures. When a school is bleeding students, something needs to change and the answer isn't forcing students to go to a school they have no interest in attending just to please administrators and faculty.

Students and parents also need better college counseling. Some of these colleges could be great for a lot of kids if students weren’t obsessed with social media and parents weren’t drooling over prestige.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Radford was part of Tech for a while

ODU was part of W&M

I think ODU is underrated, really, and Radford is a nice little campus.

Why did the state let the top 3 grow so much? It seems pretty obvious that growing those schools by a lot hurts the smaller schools.

It's stupid that public schools based in one area of the state are allowed to cannibalize public schools in other parts of the state. If there's so much demand, then either fund the existing schools to up their level or create another school which will probably be more beneficial (profitable??) than these haphazardly placed satellite campuses. It also demonstrates that the current state model of VA publics is a failure.

It wouldn't be discussed if some public schools weren't failures. When a school is bleeding students, something needs to change and the answer isn't forcing students to go to a school they have no interest in attending just to please administrators and faculty.

Students and parents also need better college counseling. Some of these colleges could be great for a lot of kids if students weren’t obsessed with social media and parents weren’t drooling over prestige.

Longwood is basically open admission. The kid with the 1100 SAT (their median) probably isn't concerned with prestige. They are bad schools because they don't have compelling offerings and they are located in the middle of nowhere

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also from the same report....

https://wtop.com/education/2024/10/3-virginia-universities-with-some-viability-risks-study-finds/
"On Monday, Sen. Mamie Locke, D-Hampton, questioned if the risks against Virginia State have any connection to the institution not being funded to the same levels as Virginia Tech after the federal government estimated a year ago that VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Like Virginia Tech, the historically Black college in Petersburg is a land grant institution.

“It’s an HBCU and this state is known for not having funded HBCUs to the levels that they should be funded,” Locke said."


Virginia continues to underfund public schools.

Virginia State gets $18,991 per in-state FTE student in general fund appropriations (state revenues appropriated for the institution). Virginia Tech gets $9,480 per in-state FTE.

https://research.schev.edu/info/Reports.Guide-to-the-Finance-Policy-Reports

A few years of increased pupil funding doesn’t reflect the many decades of underfunding - by millions & millions of dollars.

Virginia State has been getting significantly more per FTE for many years.

You think that’s enough even though their facilities are in terrible shape compared to VT, VCU, etc.?

Virginia State has gotten more per FTE from the state than VT for many years. It is still struggling because it doesn't pull in as much money per FTE from other non state sources like net tuition and fees. Other non HBCUs in Virginia have the same issue.

No, it's not funding issue. It could have all the funding. All new facilities. And still it would struggle. Like many HBCUs it has a low graduation rate. It has a 90% acceptance rate and has pretty low admission standards. High achieving Black students are not going to select this school. They have too many other options. Even slight above average students are not selecting it. Employers are not going to seek out graduates of this school.

They shouldn't try and compete with other state school but instead focus on the program they offer that other schools don't which is Agriculture. They could modernized the curriculum ,and recruit more widely , they could attract some students. They could also partner with Tech to offer a transfer program for that degree. Or establish an animal studies degree and provide a pathway into VA tech vet school. This would attract a higher achieving more diverse student body.

Exactly. Does anyone know any black students who would choose one of the VA HBCUs over any of the other excellent universities? Seems people are just not interested in going there. This happens to other schools too, regardless of race (Sweet Briar). Why should VA continue pouring money into schools most kids won’t choose?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting article and I was surprised to see Mary Washington having more problems than Radford or Longwood. Also surprised to see Christopher Newport in the list. Not surprised to see VA state or Norfolk. They should probably combine to be one strong school and maybe they could attract some students who were heading to Howard.

The report doesn’t mean any state level actions will take place but I think it is interesting and there likely does need to be action.


https://cardinalnews.org/2024/10/09/state-report-says-seven-small-universities-should-be-monitored-as-enrollment-cliff-approaches/

It’s interesting that you propose that VA State and Norfolk combine but not, say, Longwood and CNU.

The first two are HBCUs, why not combine to create a larger HBCU?

+1
It seems like maybe most kids don't want an HBCU. Maybe they've outlived their original purpose? I'm sure I'll be called a "racist" for stating a fact, but you can't make kids choose a school they're not interested in.

I think it's a legitimate question to be asking in 2024 and what the future of the schools should be. Many are struggling not just the ones in Virginia.

+2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The naming convention of VA publics is dumb and counter to what other states do to create a brand. Both public and private college options are also pretty pathetic in terms of selectivity and options. The schools generally are in armpit areas of the state compared to other states that place their schools in cities or have a well established college town. The schools should basically be as cheap or cheaper than other states because of these failings. A flagship in another state will have more brand recognition even if they are (at least of) equal rigor than any of the respective state schools in VA they are ranked closely with, including UVA and Tech. The fact that, all other things being equal, almost every high performing kid in VA will choose to go to an out-of-state school if given the chance is damning.

Where are you getting this ideas “that almost every high performing kid in VA chooses to go out of state?” Compared to other states, a huge number of Virginia kids choose to go out of state.

+100
The PP’s post is so clueless it’s comical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also from the same report....

https://wtop.com/education/2024/10/3-virginia-universities-with-some-viability-risks-study-finds/
"On Monday, Sen. Mamie Locke, D-Hampton, questioned if the risks against Virginia State have any connection to the institution not being funded to the same levels as Virginia Tech after the federal government estimated a year ago that VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Like Virginia Tech, the historically Black college in Petersburg is a land grant institution.

“It’s an HBCU and this state is known for not having funded HBCUs to the levels that they should be funded,” Locke said."


Virginia continues to underfund public schools.

Virginia State gets $18,991 per in-state FTE student in general fund appropriations (state revenues appropriated for the institution). Virginia Tech gets $9,480 per in-state FTE.

https://research.schev.edu/info/Reports.Guide-to-the-Finance-Policy-Reports

A few years of increased pupil funding doesn’t reflect the many decades of underfunding - by millions & millions of dollars.

Virginia State has been getting significantly more per FTE for many years.

You think that’s enough even though their facilities are in terrible shape compared to VT, VCU, etc.?

Virginia State has gotten more per FTE from the state than VT for many years. It is still struggling because it doesn't pull in as much money per FTE from other non state sources like net tuition and fees. Other non HBCUs in Virginia have the same issue.

No, it's not funding issue. It could have all the funding. All new facilities. And still it would struggle. Like many HBCUs it has a low graduation rate. It has a 90% acceptance rate and has pretty low admission standards. High achieving Black students are not going to select this school. They have too many other options. Even slight above average students are not selecting it. Employers are not going to seek out graduates of this school.

They shouldn't try and compete with other state school but instead focus on the program they offer that other schools don't which is Agriculture. They could modernized the curriculum ,and recruit more widely , they could attract some students. They could also partner with Tech to offer a transfer program for that degree. Or establish an animal studies degree and provide a pathway into VA tech vet school. This would attract a higher achieving more diverse student body.

It would be in a much different place today if it were funded like VT from the start.

It’s just another example of systemic racism that has long-lasting impacts to present day.

Of course, Republicans don’t want to fix it. They want to pretend like there is no problem here at all. They don’t value public education, especially for HBCUs.

DP. Well, that’s utter BS. Why should the state pour money into schools that most black people don’t want to attend? The two HBCUs in VA being discussed here are not attractive to black students, who have a wealth of other universities in-state to choose from. It’s 2024. Why are you advocating for racial segregation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NSU’s proximity to ODU is not helping it. They’re about 10 minutes apart and ODU has far more amenities and programs, and is in a better part of town.

Exactly. Why would anyone choose NSU when they could choose ODU instead and get a much more comprehensive education?