State report says 7 Virginia universities should be monitored as enrollment cliff approaches

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:This is not a sad development. I mean, what do Americans expect? There are way too many colleges in the US that aren't doing well, and were never good in the first place. Surely you don't want your kid going there. If you have a student who can't get into a decent college, you need to have them attend community college, then transfer to a better university.

I agree with this, and I'll take it a step further - there are too many people in colleges. We've promulgated the "college for all" mantra, and it's done many kids a disservice, leaving them saddled with student loan debt after attending bottom of the barrel schools, and being no more employable after graduation (if they do graduate) than they would have been otherwise. Plus, now employers expect that applicants will be "college graduates" for all sorts of posts where it isn't at all necessary.

Enterprise car rental, for example, brags that they are the largest hirer of college graduates each year. You don’t need a college degree to run a car rental desk at an airport.

You need a degree to get promoted. Do you really want to live in a society where less people are educated?

Sigh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it would be nice if VA made community college free like some other states. A tiny bit off topic, but really ... something to consider.

My child probably could have gone the community college route. We took a leap of faith and sent her to a 4 year school that caters to her specific needs and has the programs she wants. We luckily had that luxury. Many families do not.

Nothing is free, so, no thanks. I don’t really want to pay for your kid’s education through my tax dollars.

[Anonymous]

It would be smart to fund two free years at community college, because that way more people could go into the trades as well as college.

I'm not sure most people will be able to afford four years at a rural university anymore.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Some of you are positive gleeful that smaller and more affordable (relatively speaking) colleges are having problems.

And it's super weird. Not to mention ugly.

+1 It’s shocking this thread went from being gleeful that some colleges might close to saying large groups of students shouldn’t go to college at all. Folks, other kids deserve college too. Get a grip.

College is not a right. If you didn't do the work in k-12, for whatever reason, you're not automatically entitled to a 4 year college. A GED and community college is an established path that can lead you to a bachelor's degree. Many people already choose that path.

Why not?

NP-How bout you tell everyone why it should be a right first.

Why is free K-12 a right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are positive gleeful that smaller and more affordable (relatively speaking) colleges are having problems.

And it's super weird. Not to mention ugly.

+1 It’s shocking this thread went from being gleeful that some colleges might close to saying large groups of students shouldn’t go to college at all. Folks, other kids deserve college too. Get a grip.

College is not a right. If you didn't do the work in k-12, for whatever reason, you're not automatically entitled to a 4 year college. A GED and community college is an established path that can lead you to a bachelor's degree. Many people already choose that path.

Why not?

NP-How bout you tell everyone why it should be a right first.

Why is free K-12 a right?

Why do you keep asking why? How about you explain your position for everyone. Then we will agree or tell you why we think you're wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are positive gleeful that smaller and more affordable (relatively speaking) colleges are having problems.

And it's super weird. Not to mention ugly.

+1 It’s shocking this thread went from being gleeful that some colleges might close to saying large groups of students shouldn’t go to college at all. Folks, other kids deserve college too. Get a grip.

College is not a right. If you didn't do the work in k-12, for whatever reason, you're not automatically entitled to a 4 year college. A GED and community college is an established path that can lead you to a bachelor's degree. Many people already choose that path.

Why not?

NP-How bout you tell everyone why it should be a right first.

Why is free K-12 a right?

Why do you keep asking why? How about you explain your position for everyone. Then we will agree or tell you why we think you're wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it would be nice if VA made community college free like some other states. A tiny bit off topic, but really ... something to consider.

My child probably could have gone the community college route. We took a leap of faith and sent her to a 4 year school that caters to her specific needs and has the programs she wants. We luckily had that luxury. Many families do not.

Nothing is free, so, no thanks. I don’t really want to pay for your kid’s education through my tax dollars.

I didn’t ask you to. I told you we made the choice to send her off, to a private school out of VA.

But I agree that community college being free might encourage more kids to look into trade careers that are trained at the CC level. My daughter had interest in becoming a PTA, which is a cc program.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Also from the same report....

https://wtop.com/education/2024/10/3-virginia-universities-with-some-viability-risks-study-finds/
"On Monday, Sen. Mamie Locke, D-Hampton, questioned if the risks against Virginia State have any connection to the institution not being funded to the same levels as Virginia Tech after the federal government estimated a year ago that VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Like Virginia Tech, the historically Black college in Petersburg is a land grant institution.

“It’s an HBCU and this state is known for not having funded HBCUs to the levels that they should be funded,” Locke said."


Virginia continues to underfund public schools.

Virginia State gets $18,991 per in-state FTE student in general fund appropriations (state revenues appropriated for the institution). Virginia Tech gets $9,480 per in-state FTE.

https://research.schev.edu/info/Reports.Guide-to-the-Finance-Policy-Reports

A few years of increased pupil funding doesn’t reflect the many decades of underfunding - by millions & millions of dollars.

Virginia State has been getting significantly more per FTE for many years.

You think that’s enough even though their facilities are in terrible shape compared to VT, VCU, etc.?

Virginia State has gotten more per FTE from the state than VT for many years. It is still struggling because it doesn't pull in as much money per FTE from other non state sources like net tuition and fees. Other non HBCUs in Virginia have the same issue.

No, it's not funding issue. It could have all the funding. All new facilities. And still it would struggle. Like many HBCUs it has a low graduation rate. It has a 90% acceptance rate and has pretty low admission standards. High achieving Black students are not going to select this school. They have too many other options. Even slight above average students are not selecting it. Employers are not going to seek out graduates of this school.

They shouldn't try and compete with other state school but instead focus on the program they offer that other schools don't which is Agriculture. They could modernized the curriculum ,and recruit more widely , they could attract some students. They could also partner with Tech to offer a transfer program for that degree. Or establish an animal studies degree and provide a pathway into VA tech vet school. This would attract a higher achieving more diverse student body.

It would be in a much different place today if it were funded like VT from the start.

It’s just another example of systemic racism that has long-lasting impacts to present day.

Of course, Republicans don’t want to fix it. They want to pretend like there is no problem here at all. They don’t value public education, especially for HBCUs.

DP. Well, that’s utter BS. Why should the state pour money into schools that most black people don’t want to attend? The two HBCUs in VA being discussed here are not attractive to black students, who have a wealth of other universities in-state to choose from. It’s 2024. Why are you advocating for racial segregation?

Relatedly, these HBCUs were from a time when southern states were claiming separate but equal yet everyone knew they weren’t. At the grade school and high school level, the segregated schools were not kept open - the systems merged together. Why did the same thing not happen with colleges?

You are very naive if you think K-12 schools are no longer segregated. Wow

^^stuff I never said and don’t think^^

De jure elementary and high schools were not kept open. They merged. VSU and NSU were de jure schools yet were kept open.

If you want to have a discussion about de facto schools then let’s. But I suspect that the way to end the de facto segregated schools (among which are now VSU and NSU) is just to close them. But that doesn’t seem to be popular on this thread.

Where will their students go? We cant assume they will get in, be able to afford, or feel welcome at primarily white institutions. HBCU’s exist for a reason. If you want to advocate for them to close, what are you doing to ensure their students will find a new college?

What's a primarily white institution (Liberty??) and why would they not feel welcome at non-HBCU schools in general? I'm not pro-white advocacy on anything but if people can't succeed at cookie cutter 4 year publics, perhaps they aren't cut out for schools in general. The community colleges (are they white, too?) are a great affordable option in VA with guaranteed transfer admission to 4 year publics. Given that many HBCU are not competitive at all, I'd assume the rigor wouldn't be that different. Or perhaps some of these 4 year HBCU should just rebrand as residential 2 year specialized colleges with a 4 year option.

This shows a general lack of understanding. There is plenty of literature the could be helpful. However, community college isn’t the answer because historically that is where students were sent that were deemed not good enough. Even if the intentions are good in this case, surely you can see the optics of closing HBCU’s and sending their students to community college are bad.

HBCUs seem very antiquated in 2024. Basing universities on race just seems weird these days. Howard, Spelman, and Morehouse will always be a thing, but it's still weird. I can't imagine any other race having racially exclusive colleges. It's not 1950 anymore. It's odd.

Unfortunately, racism isn’t antiquated.

Was closing Sweetbriar due to racism? Or was it because it was a financially failing school?

Equinophobia. But it's not closed.

Seriously, Sweet Briar is still open

Yes, but it nearly closed in 2015 and was only saved by private donations. Public schools on the verge of failing aren’t going to be pulled back from the brink by alumni donations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also from the same report....

https://wtop.com/education/2024/10/3-virginia-universities-with-some-viability-risks-study-finds/
"On Monday, Sen. Mamie Locke, D-Hampton, questioned if the risks against Virginia State have any connection to the institution not being funded to the same levels as Virginia Tech after the federal government estimated a year ago that VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Like Virginia Tech, the historically Black college in Petersburg is a land grant institution.

“It’s an HBCU and this state is known for not having funded HBCUs to the levels that they should be funded,” Locke said."


Virginia continues to underfund public schools.

Virginia State gets $18,991 per in-state FTE student in general fund appropriations (state revenues appropriated for the institution). Virginia Tech gets $9,480 per in-state FTE.

https://research.schev.edu/info/Reports.Guide-to-the-Finance-Policy-Reports

A few years of increased pupil funding doesn’t reflect the many decades of underfunding - by millions & millions of dollars.

Virginia State has been getting significantly more per FTE for many years.

You think that’s enough even though their facilities are in terrible shape compared to VT, VCU, etc.?

Virginia State has gotten more per FTE from the state than VT for many years. It is still struggling because it doesn't pull in as much money per FTE from other non state sources like net tuition and fees. Other non HBCUs in Virginia have the same issue.

No, it's not funding issue. It could have all the funding. All new facilities. And still it would struggle. Like many HBCUs it has a low graduation rate. It has a 90% acceptance rate and has pretty low admission standards. High achieving Black students are not going to select this school. They have too many other options. Even slight above average students are not selecting it. Employers are not going to seek out graduates of this school.

They shouldn't try and compete with other state school but instead focus on the program they offer that other schools don't which is Agriculture. They could modernized the curriculum ,and recruit more widely , they could attract some students. They could also partner with Tech to offer a transfer program for that degree. Or establish an animal studies degree and provide a pathway into VA tech vet school. This would attract a higher achieving more diverse student body.

It would be in a much different place today if it were funded like VT from the start.

It’s just another example of systemic racism that has long-lasting impacts to present day.

Of course, Republicans don’t want to fix it. They want to pretend like there is no problem here at all. They don’t value public education, especially for HBCUs.

DP. Well, that’s utter BS. Why should the state pour money into schools that most black people don’t want to attend? The two HBCUs in VA being discussed here are not attractive to black students, who have a wealth of other universities in-state to choose from. It’s 2024. Why are you advocating for racial segregation?

Relatedly, these HBCUs were from a time when southern states were claiming separate but equal yet everyone knew they weren’t. At the grade school and high school level, the segregated schools were not kept open - the systems merged together. Why did the same thing not happen with colleges?

You are very naive if you think K-12 schools are no longer segregated. Wow

^^stuff I never said and don’t think^^

De jure elementary and high schools were not kept open. They merged. VSU and NSU were de jure schools yet were kept open.

If you want to have a discussion about de facto schools then let’s. But I suspect that the way to end the de facto segregated schools (among which are now VSU and NSU) is just to close them. But that doesn’t seem to be popular on this thread.

Where will their students go? We cant assume they will get in, be able to afford, or feel welcome at primarily white institutions. HBCU’s exist for a reason. If you want to advocate for them to close, what are you doing to ensure their students will find a new college?

What's a primarily white institution (Liberty??) and why would they not feel welcome at non-HBCU schools in general? I'm not pro-white advocacy on anything but if people can't succeed at cookie cutter 4 year publics, perhaps they aren't cut out for schools in general. The community colleges (are they white, too?) are a great affordable option in VA with guaranteed transfer admission to 4 year publics. Given that many HBCU are not competitive at all, I'd assume the rigor wouldn't be that different. Or perhaps some of these 4 year HBCU should just rebrand as residential 2 year specialized colleges with a 4 year option.

This shows a general lack of understanding. There is plenty of literature the could be helpful. However, community college isn’t the answer because historically that is where students were sent that were deemed not good enough. Even if the intentions are good in this case, surely you can see the optics of closing HBCU’s and sending their students to community college are bad.

HBCUs seem very antiquated in 2024. Basing universities on race just seems weird these days. Howard, Spelman, and Morehouse will always be a thing, but it's still weird. I can't imagine any other race having racially exclusive colleges. It's not 1950 anymore. It's odd.

Unfortunately, racism isn’t antiquated.

Was closing Sweetbriar due to racism? Or was it because it was a financially failing school?

Sweetbriar isn’t a hbcu

Whoosh…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are positive gleeful that smaller and more affordable (relatively speaking) colleges are having problems.

And it's super weird. Not to mention ugly.

+1 It’s shocking this thread went from being gleeful that some colleges might close to saying large groups of students shouldn’t go to college at all. Folks, other kids deserve college too. Get a grip.

College is not a right. If you didn't do the work in k-12, for whatever reason, you're not automatically entitled to a 4 year college. A GED and community college is an established path that can lead you to a bachelor's degree. Many people already choose that path.

Why not?

NP-How bout you tell everyone why it should be a right first.

Why is free K-12 a right?

DP here. I don't actually think it should, but that is beyond the scope of this post. In many European countries for example, HS ends after 10th grade if you are not a good student.

I also vehemently disagree with all of the "wrap around services" provided by our public education dollars, at the expense of providing better a better education.

[Anonymous]

those "wrap around services" are generally something that would wind up as a public service, so I'm not sure what the problem is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also from the same report....

https://wtop.com/education/2024/10/3-virginia-universities-with-some-viability-risks-study-finds/
"On Monday, Sen. Mamie Locke, D-Hampton, questioned if the risks against Virginia State have any connection to the institution not being funded to the same levels as Virginia Tech after the federal government estimated a year ago that VSU is owed over $277 million in state funding from 1987 to 2020.

Like Virginia Tech, the historically Black college in Petersburg is a land grant institution.

“It’s an HBCU and this state is known for not having funded HBCUs to the levels that they should be funded,” Locke said."


Virginia continues to underfund public schools.

Virginia State gets $18,991 per in-state FTE student in general fund appropriations (state revenues appropriated for the institution). Virginia Tech gets $9,480 per in-state FTE.

https://research.schev.edu/info/Reports.Guide-to-the-Finance-Policy-Reports

A few years of increased pupil funding doesn’t reflect the many decades of underfunding - by millions & millions of dollars.

Virginia State has been getting significantly more per FTE for many years.

You think that’s enough even though their facilities are in terrible shape compared to VT, VCU, etc.?

Virginia State has gotten more per FTE from the state than VT for many years. It is still struggling because it doesn't pull in as much money per FTE from other non state sources like net tuition and fees. Other non HBCUs in Virginia have the same issue.

No, it's not funding issue. It could have all the funding. All new facilities. And still it would struggle. Like many HBCUs it has a low graduation rate. It has a 90% acceptance rate and has pretty low admission standards. High achieving Black students are not going to select this school. They have too many other options. Even slight above average students are not selecting it. Employers are not going to seek out graduates of this school.

They shouldn't try and compete with other state school but instead focus on the program they offer that other schools don't which is Agriculture. They could modernized the curriculum ,and recruit more widely , they could attract some students. They could also partner with Tech to offer a transfer program for that degree. Or establish an animal studies degree and provide a pathway into VA tech vet school. This would attract a higher achieving more diverse student body.

It would be in a much different place today if it were funded like VT from the start.

It’s just another example of systemic racism that has long-lasting impacts to present day.

Of course, Republicans don’t want to fix it. They want to pretend like there is no problem here at all. They don’t value public education, especially for HBCUs.

DP. Well, that’s utter BS. Why should the state pour money into schools that most black people don’t want to attend? The two HBCUs in VA being discussed here are not attractive to black students, who have a wealth of other universities in-state to choose from. It’s 2024. Why are you advocating for racial segregation?

Relatedly, these HBCUs were from a time when southern states were claiming separate but equal yet everyone knew they weren’t. At the grade school and high school level, the segregated schools were not kept open - the systems merged together. Why did the same thing not happen with colleges?

You are very naive if you think K-12 schools are no longer segregated. Wow

^^stuff I never said and don’t think^^

De jure elementary and high schools were not kept open. They merged. VSU and NSU were de jure schools yet were kept open.

If you want to have a discussion about de facto schools then let’s. But I suspect that the way to end the de facto segregated schools (among which are now VSU and NSU) is just to close them. But that doesn’t seem to be popular on this thread.

Where will their students go? We cant assume they will get in, be able to afford, or feel welcome at primarily white institutions. HBCU’s exist for a reason. If you want to advocate for them to close, what are you doing to ensure their students will find a new college?

What's a primarily white institution (Liberty??) and why would they not feel welcome at non-HBCU schools in general? I'm not pro-white advocacy on anything but if people can't succeed at cookie cutter 4 year publics, perhaps they aren't cut out for schools in general. The community colleges (are they white, too?) are a great affordable option in VA with guaranteed transfer admission to 4 year publics. Given that many HBCU are not competitive at all, I'd assume the rigor wouldn't be that different. Or perhaps some of these 4 year HBCU should just rebrand as residential 2 year specialized colleges with a 4 year option.

This shows a general lack of understanding. There is plenty of literature the could be helpful. However, community college isn’t the answer because historically that is where students were sent that were deemed not good enough. Even if the intentions are good in this case, surely you can see the optics of closing HBCU’s and sending their students to community college are bad.

HBCUs seem very antiquated in 2024. Basing universities on race just seems weird these days. Howard, Spelman, and Morehouse will always be a thing, but it's still weird. I can't imagine any other race having racially exclusive colleges. It's not 1950 anymore. It's odd.

Unfortunately, racism isn’t antiquated.

Was closing Sweetbriar due to racism? Or was it because it was a financially failing school?

Equinophobia. But it's not closed.

Seriously, Sweet Briar is still open

Yes, but it nearly closed in 2015 and was only saved by private donations. Public schools on the verge of failing aren’t going to be pulled back from the brink by alumni donations.

Sweetbrier is actually doing much better now; sounded like the former president wanted to make money on real estate. All they had to do was be honest and ask the alumni for money.

It would help if the state really reduced the tuition for community college, or made it free with certain GPA requirements. Most people won't be able to afford to even attend a rural public college after a while.

[Anonymous]

I looked into tuition at community college - it certainly isn’t cheap!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it would be nice if VA made community college free like some other states. A tiny bit off topic, but really ... something to consider.

My child probably could have gone the community college route. We took a leap of faith and sent her to a 4 year school that caters to her specific needs and has the programs she wants. We luckily had that luxury. Many families do not.

Nothing is free, so, no thanks. I don’t really want to pay for your kid’s education through my tax dollars.

There’s a lot of things I don’t want to pay for with my taxes. Or I pay for but dont use. So that’s a dumb comment.

[Anonymous]

Somewhat regarding the subject of this thread, what are some of the more subtle signs (beyond a school decreasing courses offered and departments) that a school may be in financial danger?

I ask because my DD expressed interest to a (non-VA state) school and has received a lot of really sharp, well-produced PR mail from that school. Very impressive marketing that looks like it costs a fortune.
Yet I recently learned that the school is on the brink of closing.