Big Law - HR meeting out of the blue

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

+1. It might not feel like it, OP, but this is a show of respect to you. They have enough respect to do this as gently as possible. They don't have to, but they did and that speaks well of all involved, including you.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This op with an update for the group. The meeting was for a PIP (performance improvement plan) for 60 days. In other words I should find a new job and I have 60 days to do it. They guised the meeting as “wanting to help me so I don’t hit a wall when I’m up for partner in 2 years” and said “wanting to make partner is a nice ambition” and “you billing rate as a senior associate is high and it almost makes more sense for our group to use a junior and train up” when I said I’m shocked by this given that I’ve had great reviews for the past few years including this last year they said “law firms are notoriously bad about giving reviews” and “your evaluations are fine, everyone gets an A we’re not good at giving evaluations” and “let’s not focus on reviews”

Well that’s interesting since all the posts last night said big law didn’t do PIPs.

Agree with another poster that this is a good runway to focus on finding a new job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the update OP. That's arguably better than 60 days of severance/ website time, etc. If you can swing an offer in 60 days (v doable), you'll never have to answer "yes" to the question "were you ever fired?". Great outcome, glad that firms are being humane. Onward and upward, OP!

It doesn't work like that. When you sign the severance agreement it is considered a resignation so you would never have to say you were fired anyways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

Isn’t this a common way that law firms move out associates? They make it clear that it’s time to look elsewhere and give you a window to do so?

Not sure it’s always done via a formal PIP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This op with an update for the group. The meeting was for a PIP (performance improvement plan) for 60 days. In other words I should find a new job and I have 60 days to do it. They guised the meeting as “wanting to help me so I don’t hit a wall when I’m up for partner in 2 years” and said “wanting to make partner is a nice ambition” and “you billing rate as a senior associate is high and it almost makes more sense for our group to use a junior and train up” when I said I’m shocked by this given that I’ve had great reviews for the past few years including this last year they said “law firms are notoriously bad about giving reviews” and “your evaluations are fine, everyone gets an A we’re not good at giving evaluations” and “let’s not focus on reviews”

Well that’s interesting since all the posts last night said big law didn’t do PIPs.

Agree with another poster that this is a good runway to focus on finding a new job.

Doesn't sound like a PIP even if they are calling it that because they are going to fire OP at the end of 60 days regardless of her performance. I suspect they told all the partners in OP's practice area so they won't be assigning any work to her. Basically OP has 60 days notice before she is fired but she will probably still get severance at that point so she's getting an extra 2 months of severance than other people get.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the update OP. That's arguably better than 60 days of severance/ website time, etc. If you can swing an offer in 60 days (v doable), you'll never have to answer "yes" to the question "were you ever fired?". Great outcome, glad that firms are being humane. Onward and upward, OP!

It doesn't work like that. When you sign the severance agreement it is considered a resignation so you would never have to say you were fired anyways.

I often see the question asked as, “Have you ever been fired, told you will be fired, or resigned voluntarily instead of being fired?” It is designed to capture the situation you speak of. Anyway, OP has a chance to fully dodge all that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP. If somebody is a good associate who does good work, what makes them not partner material? Does that mean they do a good job with work that is handed to them, but they don't seek out more work and/or try to bring in their own clients?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

+1. It might not feel like it, OP, but this is a show of respect to you. They have enough respect to do this as gently as possible. They don't have to, but they did and that speaks well of all involved, including you.

OP is 3 months removed from paternity leave and has good reviews. 60 days is better than having to defend a lawsuit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP- if her whole team is low billables do they all get the axe? Do they have to be rainmaking as senior associates?

Not all of them, as consolidation will raise the hours of those left. And yes, in my experience, to become a partner you need to be developing business and showing rainmaking potential as a senior associate. I had 30 clients by the time I made partner as a 7th year associate. My business development hours were huge, and it took a ton of hustle. No one made partner without at least a small book. You can't survive without it under most firms' compensation models. Some firms used to have a layer of 'working partners,' but even many of those have done away with them.

How much in collectible billings were the 30 clients bringing in as a 7th year associate? I guess I'm curious whether it's the volume of clients that matters or if it's the amount of collectible billings. In looking at most partners that I know, most of them seem to have 1 or 2 really big clients and then a bunch of much, much smaller clients, hence why the "30 clients" is a little surprising.

I do not remember the volume, but in my practice area the one big client model is rare and 30+ is normal. But, the answer in any case is, it depends. One giant client with big dollar volume is great -- until they are gone, just as 30 who use you once and never again also is not great. But some combination of volume, repeat business, and a pipeline should some dry up or get conflicted out is what you ultimately are aiming for as a partner, so partners are looking to see some potential for creating that mix. And this will vary based on practice area too, but the ideal goal is to encourage the client to use other practice areas as well, so the associate who brings in a brand new client for one small matter creates potential business for her partners too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the update OP. That's arguably better than 60 days of severance/ website time, etc. If you can swing an offer in 60 days (v doable), you'll never have to answer "yes" to the question "were you ever fired?". Great outcome, glad that firms are being humane. Onward and upward, OP!

It doesn't work like that. When you sign the severance agreement it is considered a resignation so you would never have to say you were fired anyways.

I often see the question asked as, “Have you ever been fired, told you will be fired, or resigned voluntarily instead of being fired?” It is designed to capture the situation you speak of. Anyway, OP has a chance to fully dodge all that.

NDAs work two ways and most severance packages contain them. The employer can not more violate it to confirm you were asked to resign than you can violate it to reveal workplace issues

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP. If somebody is a good associate who does good work, what makes them not partner material? Does that mean they do a good job with work that is handed to them, but they don't seek out more work and/or try to bring in their own clients?

NP. It literally just means they didn’t work enough hours. OP, don’t take “not being partner material” to be a slight. It actually speaks well of your priorities and self esteem IMO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What they are actually saying is that you are a fine associate, hence the good reviews on the work you were doing, but not partner material, which is the next step. Now you are too expensive to use on the matters you are qualified to cover. Your good reviews will help you find a new position, but keep in mind they will know you were considered not partner material, so don't try to bluff that.

NP. If somebody is a good associate who does good work, what makes them not partner material? Does that mean they do a good job with work that is handed to them, but they don't seek out more work and/or try to bring in their own clients?

NP. It literally just means they didn’t work enough hours. OP, don’t take “not being partner material” to be a slight. It actually speaks well of your priorities and self esteem IMO.

I take it to mean the practice group is overstaffed and someone has to go. That's going to be the senior associate who lacks their own book

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the update OP. That's arguably better than 60 days of severance/ website time, etc. If you can swing an offer in 60 days (v doable), you'll never have to answer "yes" to the question "were you ever fired?". Great outcome, glad that firms are being humane. Onward and upward, OP!

It doesn't work like that. When you sign the severance agreement it is considered a resignation so you would never have to say you were fired anyways.

I often see the question asked as, “Have you ever been fired, told you will be fired, or resigned voluntarily instead of being fired?” It is designed to capture the situation you speak of. Anyway, OP has a chance to fully dodge all that.

NDAs work two ways and most severance packages contain them. The employer can not more violate it to confirm you were asked to resign than you can violate it to reveal workplace issues

My law firm career ended with a separation agreement in which the firm and I agreed my last day was X, which was 3 months out.

HR and I were very careful in not saying fired, terminated, quit, etc.

I was told orally that all partners knew my last day was X and all the firm would say in response to any inquiry was that my employment ended on X.

When confronted with that kind of question, I was never entirely sure what was the right answer.

[Anonymous]

Leave a deuce in the office houseplant